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I can see the logic on Apple waiting on LTE for a little while.

The thing I would really want from Apple is the ability to buy these GSM/CDMA universal phones completely unlocked (and with the capability of doing 3G on every used spectrum, including the ones that T-Mobile and a couple Canadian carriers use that the current iPhones are incompatible with). Then, I want all the carriers to compete over me on service terms. Just as they've always had it in Europe where cellphone ownership ends up costing much less than it does here.

I would gladly pay $500 to $600 to buy an iPhone outright if it meant that I would save $15 or $20 a month on my service and never had to be bound by a contract.
 
Makes sense to hold out on LTE till 2012. While some of the US might be covered (by VZW, doubt AT&T will have anything substantial), the rest of the world will not even be close. Here in Canada, LTE wont be here till late 2011 at the earliest (and thats a stretch).

Plus the 3G networks here are fast as is. 5 mbps down/2 mbps up is easy to get over 3G hence nullifying the need for immediate 4G.

The rest of the world ey?
In my small town of 100.000 people in Sweden we already have 4G rolled out. I tried it the other day and got 80Mbit/s download speed. The 240 largest cities will have 4G in Sweden by the end of of 2011.
It's time for the American and Canadian people to wake up and demand more of their providers. Your cell phone AND broadband providers suck, realize it.

I am not trying to start a flame war here. USA/Canada are great countries in most other aspects. ;)
 
Apple is definitely making the right move waiting for widespread availability of 4G before rolling out a phone.

Two reasons:
People are stupid and will expect a 4G phone to get a 4G signal everywhere.
Experience: there are some places where 3G still doesn't work well enough.
 
Ok so you want an iPhone that will have GSM, CDMA and LTE chip and be able to do 3G/4G (where available) and Edge in the sticks? And you want it for $199? Yes, I do too, but I'm afraid Apple would like to make a few billion on just offering an plain vanilla CDMA phone for Verizon customers and then a few more billion on "just" offering a GSM/CDMA phone first...

So you're pro gouging ? :rolleyes:

Apple can still make a few billions selling a proper LTE enabled phone that falls back to 3G and EDGE in 2011. Qualcomm ships the chips today. Of course, then they don't get the easy upgrade money from current buyers when they do put out the LTE phone later on.

LTE is here today. In June 2011, it's going to be even more here. Think for yourselves a bit people.
 
The rest of the world ey?
In my small town of 100.000 people in Sweden we already have 4G rolled out. I tried it the other day and got 80Mbit/s download speed. The 240 largest cities will have 4G in Sweden by the end of of 2011.
It's time for the American and Canadian people to wake up and demand more of their providers. Your cell phone AND broadband providers suck, realize it.

I am not trying to start a flame war here. USA/Canada are great countries in most other aspects. ;)

Radcliff, you're doing nothing to dissuade my notion that northern Europe is this magical otherworldly paradise :lol: (seriously, by any rational measure you guys have the highest standard of living in human history, but other than that... :lol: )
 
The rest of the world ey?
In my small town of 100.000 people in Sweden we already have 4G rolled out. I tried it the other day and got 80Mbit/s download speed. The 240 largest cities will have 4G in Sweden by the end of of 2011.
It's time for the American and Canadian people to wake up and demand more of their providers. Your cell phone AND broadband providers suck, realize it.

I am not trying to start a flame war here. USA/Canada are great countries in most other aspects. ;)

I agree that our cell and broadband providers suck. In Canada there is no real competition which means all providers charge as much as they can get away with. They're also allowed to lock customers in for three full years.

There are 3 nationwide cell phone providers and two of them share a network meaning there are really just two choices.

Price conscious customers can go with a discount carrier, but surprise, surprise almost all of them are owned by the big 3.

I just checked one of the smaller carriers and their local zone is a joke. Half my co-workers would have zero coverage at home.

It's highly unlikely that another nationwide provider is going to appear. Putting up 20,000 towers to reach a population of only 34 million isn't appealing economics for any company.

Broadband is just as bad. In most parts of the country there's only one cable company and one DSL company and no hope of any more appearing.
 
I thought SVDO was a handset implementation? This is from the qualcomm website:

New devices with simultaneous voice and data

.... SVDO changes this by establishing independent voice and data sessions using separate transmit and receive chains in the device.

.... Qualcomm is planning to support the SVDO feature in all of its new EV-DO MSM chipsets.
.....

This is two sided radio system. Not sure why folks keep leaping to conclusion that the "other side" of the system can be completely oblivious to the update.

The MSM chipsets are for headsets/mobile devices not base stations ("towers"). This is clearly a statement about headsets. Yeah sure, you will need new equipment in headsets. However, you need new equipment in headsets to roll out a CDMA/LTE solution also ( capable of separate transmit and receive chains). There is no difference in new equipment requirement.

There is nothing here that says there are zero protocol changes on the base station. Sure, could be situation where can reuse most, if not all, the hardware in the current towers, but if have to roll out a software upgrade then that is an effort. It will also change your network dynamics, so better be sure not going to create as many problems as you 'solve' by rolling it out.

If you have not increased the aggregate transmission bandwidth of the tower then by having phone use two channels instead of one then you just cut the cell's max units capability in half. In crowded cells, you have now introduced crappy service. SVDO is a band-aid ... it isn't a solution. If you have a network of mostly underutilized cells it works much better. Of the list of 38 cities Verizon is rolling out LTE to which one you think is underutilized ?

Even the EV-DO A updates needed tower software updates. Don't see how this protocol update, even if minor and limited to connection creation, gets off with zero updates. Sure as a software upgrade you can roll it out faster than LTE ( which requires software and hardware updates ). However, if it doesn't solve the core problem that is immaterial. Getting the wrong answer fast is not a characteristic of being a good service provider. Also, since can go faster once exited the "test" phase, it doesn't matter much of start later. They can still finished before the targeted LTE rollout is complete.

Rolling out LTE first will decrease the EV-DO data traffic on the cells. Once you have created a much larger network of under utilized cells you can then later flip them to SVDO without crapping out service levels. First though need to roll out LTE and make sure the network goes stable before add another network traffic tweak to the system.

For areas that Verizon will probably not target in the intermediate term with LTE update, they can perhaps roll out SVDO sites sooner rather than later if have personnel and funds to run those concurrently. [***] Those are quite likely under utilized cells so less of a bandwidth problem. They can run that test phase and rollout before LTE completely finishes. However, LTE must get into the "full targeted deployment" phase before start up another "test" phase on another upgrade.


The core of SVDO was designed to be rolled out along with EV-DO Rev B (which would have been an increase of bandwidth). What they have done is strip off the bandwidth increase from the dual channel usage. Yes it makes for a smaller, less invasive, update, but you have also have stripped away aggregate bandwidth utility that it had.

Rolling out SVDO first and LTE second is backwards. All that is going to get you is lots of customers getting crappy service until you get LTE rolled out. AT&T already did it the "dumb" way. There is no need to follow them down that rat hole.


[***] Some cells won't get LTE ( or later) updates for a very long time. All the cell networks spend long periods where they run two core systems. One legacy and a newer one. Most core systems are deployed for at least 10 years.
 
Unlocked World iPhone! F-- the carriers!

Sell it yourself, Apple. No subsidy, and let the users decide where to use it. If the carrier wants to sell it subsidized and lock them in for a few years, that's their choice.

Tired of carriers trying to dictate how I should use my mobile device. Maybe I don't want or need a data plan. Maybe I want to switch between two carriers over the next year. Maybe I like my grandfathered plan.

This is how it should have been all along.

Amen! I agree 100%.
 
How dare you suggest Apple adopt the latest and greatest with a proper fallback method ? Proposterous! The iPhone 3G, once released, never would drop back the EDGE ever.. err. wait... :rolleyes:

Seriously, what's the arm in shipping a LTE capable phone with 3G fallback ? Even if LTE is really limited, when you can use it it works, and when you can't, you get 3G all the same.

If LTE means a thicker form factor, the Apple fanboys will be against it. You need to remember that for Apple fanboys, form is more important than functionality. It's not a phone's reception quality and data speed that matter... It's how many people you can impress at Starbucks while using it there.
 
This is two sided radio system. Not sure why folks keep leaping to conclusion that the "other side" of the system can be completely oblivious to the update.

The MSM chipsets are for headsets/mobile devices not base stations ("towers"). This is clearly a statement about headsets. Yeah sure, you will need new equipment in headsets. However, you need new equipment in headsets to roll out a CDMA/LTE solution also ( capable of separate transmit and receive chains). There is no difference in new equipment requirement.

There is nothing here that says there are zero protocol changes on the base station. Sure, could be situation where can reuse most, if not all, the hardware in the current towers, but if have to roll out a software upgrade then that is an effort. It will also change your network dynamics, so better be sure not going to create as many problems as you 'solve' by rolling it out.

If you have not increased the aggregate transmission bandwidth of the tower then by having phone use two channels instead of one then you just cut the cell's max units capability in half. In crowded cells, you have now introduced crappy service. SVDO is a band-aid ... it isn't a solution. If you have a network of mostly underutilized cells it works much better. Of the list of 38 cities Verizon is rolling out LTE to which one you think is underutilized ?

Even the EV-DO A updates needed tower software updates. Don't see how this protocol update, even if minor and limited to connection creation, gets off with zero updates. Sure as a software upgrade you can roll it out faster than LTE ( which requires software and hardware updates ). However, if it doesn't solve the core problem that is immaterial. Getting the wrong answer fast is not a characteristic of being a good service provider. Also, since can go faster once exited the "test" phase, it doesn't matter much of start later. They can still finished before the targeted LTE rollout is complete.

Rolling out LTE first will decrease the EV-DO data traffic on the cells. Once you have created a much larger network of under utilized cells you can then later flip them to SVDO without crapping out service levels. First though need to roll out LTE and make sure the network goes stable before add another network traffic tweak to the system.

For areas that Verizon will probably not target in the intermediate term with LTE update, they can perhaps roll out SVDO sites sooner rather than later if have personnel and funds to run those concurrently. [***] Those are quite likely under utilized cells so less of a bandwidth problem. They can run that test phase and rollout before LTE completely finishes. However, LTE must get into the "full targeted deployment" phase before start up another "test" phase on another upgrade.


The core of SVDO was designed to be rolled out along with EV-DO Rev B (which would have been an increase of bandwidth). What they have done is strip off the bandwidth increase from the dual channel usage. Yes it makes for a smaller, less invasive, update, but you have also have stripped away aggregate bandwidth utility that it had.

Rolling out SVDO first and LTE second is backwards. All that is going to get you is lots of customers getting crappy service until you get LTE rolled out. AT&T already did it the "dumb" way. There is no need to follow them down that rat hole.


[***] Some cells won't get LTE ( or later) updates for a very long time. All the cell networks spend long periods where they run two core systems. One legacy and a newer one. Most core systems are deployed for at least 10 years.

If they were multiplexing the signal I could understand a tower side upgrade. Someone has to do the demux. If it some kind of dual radio, I see no reason why it would require the upgrade to the towers. When you activate the phone, you just activate it a second time for data. Why go though anything more complicated? Your only loss is battery life for the second radio. And I would ask the software guys to power the data radio down while not needing data. Yes it will use more bandwidth, but then you see what areas are hit the hardest and upgrade them. I certainly would have tested the new channel cards and had some ready to go just for dense areas of cell users. One of the great things about CDMA is that the call still goes through on an overloaded network, it just sounds crappy or the data is slow.

Also, this would be the first phone to do this. I would expect most would already be verizon customers so no increase there. Add the data users across the country, not all (3 million or more a month for apple to produce) in the same area. Figure they start with NO unlimited plans (kills the data hogs) and on top of that, ATT said the majority of users use less than 2G and 50 percent are under 200M (per ATT: The average iPhone user consumes 273 MB of data per month, according to the unique data on iPhone usage reported a few months ago by colleague Jeff Blyskal. More than half of owners use less than 200 MB per month, that data reveals.). Personally, I don't think it will be too much of an issue.
 
Some of you really need to get a handle on life. People have preferences in life. If someone's preference is to buy an iPhone, regardless to the flaws (real and perceived), why do you care. If they choose to defend their decision to buy it, and God forbid, like it - why do you care? Why do so many of you make it a personal thing?

I know, some of you feel that you know what's right for everyone, and you have these great ideas on how to make Apple more competitive. Good for you, and good luck on your journey. If the iPhone has so many flaws, then sell it and get an Android based phone. If you don't have an iPhone, then what's your purpose of commenting? To persuade others to get an Android phone? Is that your crusade?
 
If it some kind of dual radio, I see no reason why it would require the upgrade to the towers. When you activate the phone, you just activate it a second time for data. Why go though anything more complicated?

That would certainly be the easiest method: a second number. VZW already has one-bill combined statements, so even that is covered.

And don't even fire up the second radio except during the times that the user requests a double session.

As for any worry that this would cause some kind of mass overload, it seems really doubtful. Extra resources would only be used during the short bursts of time while a customer was actually talking and transferring data at the same time on a SVDO phone.

To get in trouble you'd have to have an entire group of Wall Street traders all with SVDO phones, all in the same cell neighborhood, all talking and streaming Bloomberg TV at the same time :)
 
If LTE means a thicker form factor, the Apple fanboys will be against it. You need to remember that for Apple fanboys, form is more important than functionality. It's not a phone's reception quality and data speed that matter... It's how many people you can impress at Starbucks while using it there.


I think you got it wrong.
Apple fanboys can not have opinions. They will believe what ever SJ and by extension Apple says is best.

If SJ says it needs to be thicker for LTE and a bit thicker to hold it then they will say how great LTE is.
 
A lot of people here have a hard time with the concept of choice.

Give it a rest... Apple isn't even trying to be all things to all people. If you don't grasp that fundamental precept, you've been hanging out in the wrong forums just wasting time. :/
 
At least with Flash they are proposing an alternative, even if it is not yet ready or in great availability. What is the alternative to 4G ? :rolleyes:

There are many alternatives. All comes down to what is installed in the carrier towers. Do your research, I'm not going to spoon feed you here.
 
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