Mike’s Linux challenge - Does Linux "Just Work?"

[grmlin]

He got some flack for that statement but for some scenarios Linux is a great choice for development. Also, Git is used by all sorts of programmers and it started on Linux.

Linux is a great choice for many scenarios, simply because of it's raw performance. Stuff like docker for example runs better than anywhere else.

But it's also a miserable environment if you have to use some proprietary software. Oh, and the whole Wayland/X11 situation is just ridiculous. Simple tasks like screen sharing in Teams can become a real challenge...

 

[Romain_H]

All I can say is, that with multiple monitors that need to be scaled at different fractional factors with an Nvidia card, Linux is a mess. UI scaling in general is the absolute worst of all systems imo.
In the end I simply couldn't use Linux for everyday use because of it, and I tried pretty much all desktop environments and distros 🤷‍♂️

And it's not really a funky setup in 2022 tbh.

Try KDE Plasma… imo easily the best DE on Linux. I prefer it over Windows any day

 

[MisterSavage]

Linux is a great choice for many scenarios, simply because of it's raw performance. Stuff like docker for example runs better than anywhere else.

But it's also a miserable environment if you have to use some proprietary software. Oh, and the whole Wayland/X11 situation is just ridiculous. Simple tasks like screen sharing in Teams can become a real challenge...

100% agreed.

 

[grmlin]

Try KDE Plasma… imo easily the best DE on Linux. I prefer it over Windows any day

Yeah that worked the best, but it still forgot the display settings or refused to work altogether all the time.
The scaling also didn’t work in all programs, no idea why though. I think the KDE approach is different compared to the other DEs?

 

[Romain_H]

Yeah that worked the best, but it still forgot the display settings or refused to work altogether all the time.
The scaling also didn’t work in all programs, no idea why though. I think the KDE approach is different compared to the other DEs?

No idea tbh, but I guess you may be right.

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

Sadly there's an element of elitism in the Linux community, that's completely & utterly counter productive 🙁

Q-6

Not just the Linux community. I find that in many "support" people who only know one system. They seem to have the attitude that because they "know" more about it than the people they "support" that they are better than them.

In my previous job I used to provide phone support for people who ran schools. I knew that they did a job that I could never do and this made every call a humbling experience.

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- From the Notebooks of Lazarus Long, by Robert Heinlein.

When you can do all of these things, then you can start to come off being humble.

However I would add -- change a tyre, teach a lesson, out-stare a cat, defend the weak.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Heck, I've been a member of certain Mac forums where the folks there will outright roast or the mods suspend you for spelling Mac as MAC or call an iPod touch an 'iTouch'

Also similar problems if you dare mention that Macs crash as well, and in classic Mac OS, it was far worse than Windows (instead of taking out one app, you'd have to restart the entire thing). Those folks at LowEndMac were convinced that 'Macs NEVER crash'.

It ain't just Linux folks, but they do tend to use 'RTFM' as a reply quite often. I've also dealt with forums where they say 'search for existing threads and reply there instead of cluttering up the forum with redundant posts for the same thing' but then also criticize you for 'resurrecting a dead thread'. I mean come on, which is it?!

 

[ADGrant]

Work stuff – This started out positively as I was able to install Cisco’s anyconnect VPN but, that's where the progress stopped. For some reason I could not remote into the servers and I was unable to get Citrix Workspace running. Both show stopping issues.

Personal productivity, other then not having a OneDrive client, this worked well enough. My personal VPN worked well, 1Password surprised me at working and I was able to do non-work stuff without batting an eyelash.

My employer won't support Linux for remote connectivity which rules it out for me for anything work related. I also have some side projects including an iOS app with a backend implemented in .NET Core and hosted in a Docker container. Obviously Docker is Linux native technology but iOS development requires a Mac and Docker runs fine on MacOS and if I need to I can just spin up a Linux VM.

For personal productivity Linux could be made to work but since I use an iPhone I would miss the ecosystem integration the Mac offers. In particular air drop and the messages app. I also prefer to use Apple Pay rather than enter my credit card information on websites. Obviously that requires Safari. I occasionally use Microsoft's office apps for personal productivity. Some would argue that the Windows versions are better but for personal use I have not noticed. There are alternatives on Linux of course but I don't think they are as good. Desktop app selection in general is not good on Linux compared to Windows or MacOS.

 

[ADGrant]

He's not saying that Linux is the only tool for developers, but rather that for many, Linux is in fact a superior environment to develop in - even Microsoft thinks so, as they built in and continue to improve the WSL.

Its great that you don't need Linux but I'd hazard a guess that with your Mac, you're basically doing the same things as people on Linux, i.e., Mac OS has unix roots and the tools you use, are basically similar if not the same as Linux tools for development.

That's why so many developers use Macs. It provides a Unix environment but with an extensive selection of applications. Microsoft built WSL into Windows in part to compete with the Mac for Web developer market share.

 

[nickdalzell1]

I always figured Microsoft put WSL into Windows to promote some lie that they 'care about FOSS and Linux' after that whole "Windows Refund Day" fiasco a decade or so ago.

 

[ADGrant]

Nope. As I stated - I develop using .net core. Nothing to do with Unix. I use Jetbrains Rider as my IDE. I also do Python.

If you used a Mac to develop your .NET Core app, you were using Unix. I have also developed apps using .Net Core on Mac with JetBrains Rider. I deployed the .NET Core apps in a Linux Docker container on a Kubernetes cluster also hosted on Linux. Linux isn’t strictly speaking Unix but its close enough. I have not written any .NET Core apps targeting Windows. That is the great thing about .NET Core, you don‘t need Windows.

 

[ADGrant]

I always figured Microsoft put WSL into Windows to promote some lie that they 'care about FOSS and Linux' after that whole "Windows Refund Day" fiasco a decade or so ago.

Actually no, their stated aim was to make Windows a more attractive platform to developers currently using Macs to host their Web development.

 

[TiggrToo]

If you used a Mac to develop your .NET Core app, you were using Unix.

What absolute rubbish.

I was developing Microsoft .Net Core 6 on my Darwin BSD Based Mac using Jetbrain’s Java based IDEs.

The fact that the OS is BSD based means NOTHING. I was NOT using “Unix” to develop on. I was using a Mac.

BTW: I know all about Unix: I was hooking our System V/88 3.2 powered Motorola servers up to out Novel Netware Lan way back in the early 1990s and even been tasked with finding security holes in HP-UX BLS (Military Grade Unix with Security Labels) for the British military in the mid 1990s.

I was playing with Xenix before that, Unixware after and Windows Susbstem for POSIX and Windows Subssystem for Unix back before Vista came out.

So please don’t try to kid me here.

 

[TiggrToo]

Actually no, their stated aim was to make Windows a more attractive platform to developers currently using Macs to host their Web development.

Citation required to backup this outlandish claim.

 

[grmlin]

Actually no, their stated aim was to make Windows a more attractive platform to developers currently using Macs to host their Web development.

Windows as a web development platform is a terrible terrible experience. Everything is slow, weird and feels like patchwork. WSL was actually a fantastic idea that failed in many use cases because of the unaccaptable slow IO. That's why they abandoned the WSL 1 approach with WSL 2, which works much much better. If you are using Visual Studio Code and the remote extension it's a fantastic experience with performance on the level of a a native Linux system.

But their WSLg feature for gui support is half baked and not ready for prime time, and messing around with X Server can be annoying.

I work with WSL 2 for about two years now and it has been ok. Not great, as I still have to deal with Windows, which I learned to hate in this time. I actually really hoped for a fresh start based on Linux, or some sort of Microsoft Linux environment with good hardware support, not like Linux :/ Now I'll switch back to MacOS in the coming months instead.

 

[ADGrant]

What absolute rubbish.

I was developing Microsoft .Net Core 6 on my Darwin BSD Based Mac using Jetbrain’s Java based IDEs.

The fact that the OS is BSD based means NOTHING. I was NOT using “Unix” to develop on. I was using a Mac.

BTW: I know all about Unix: I was hooking our System V/88 3.2 powered Motorola servers up to out Novel Netware Lan way back in the early 1990s and even been tasked with finding security holes in HP-UX BLS (Military Grade Unix with Security Labels) for the British military in the mid 1990s.

I was playing with Xenix before that, Unixware after and Windows Susbstem for POSIX and Windows Subssystem for Unix back before Vista came out.

So please don’t try to kid me here.

The fact that MacOS is based on BSD means that it is Unix. At one point Apple even got themselves a certificate to prove it.

Mac OS X Leopard receives UNIX 03 certification

Mac OS X Leopard is now UNIX 03 certified, joining a very short list of …

arstechnica.com

 

[ADGrant]

Citation required to backup this outlandish claim.

Here is some marketing material for you:

Windows developer tools

Windows includes built-in tools designed for developers — a package manager, a Linux subsystem, optimized storage, and more.

docs.microsoft.com

 

[TiggrToo]

The fact that MacOS is based on BSD means that it is Unix. At one point Apple even got themselves a certificate to prove it.

Mac OS X Leopard receives UNIX 03 certification

Mac OS X Leopard is now UNIX 03 certified, joining a very short list of …

arstechnica.com

Oh good grief. We're not talking about the OS.

Yes I know all about Darwin/BSD.

MacOS is so much more than the Kernal though. It may have the heart of a Unix Kernal, but the soul of Apple.

The poster i responded to stated:

For some jobs Linux is the best choice (ask programmer).

You were the one who brought up Unix. Not me.

 

[TiggrToo]

Here is some marketing material for you:

Windows developer tools

Windows includes built-in tools designed for developers — a package manager, a Linux subsystem, optimized storage, and more.

docs.microsoft.com

None of that validates your post of

Actually no, their stated aim was to make Windows a more attractive platform to developers currently using Macs to host their Web development.

You posted other people's opinions. You claimed that Microsoft specifically created WSL just to lure in Mac using developers.

The only valid citation is a statement from Microsoft directly that states what you claim.

 

[Queen6]

I'm out and why I don't do Linux. One can be technically competent, yet will need to look for help only to be scorned and refuted. TBH I don't need this in a so called open community. If you want more users on the platform, try actually helping them, not pissing on them for your own jollies. TBH is very disappointing as there's so much potential with the OS...

Q-6

 

[nickdalzell1]

I prefer it as it is. One should be able to learn something before using it. It's an old-fashioned mindset but one I've grown up with. IF Linux got dumbed down to the level the 'masses' want it'd be as pathetic as Windows or any other out there. It's one reason I prefer Android. Even if you're using something ancient like Android 2.3, if you can learn the ins and outs (which isn't that hard) you can make anything run on it. That's the benefit of open-source. With closed-source, you're buying a new PC or tablet or smartphone every few years, over and over again. The planet can't sustain that any more!

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

I don't think it is a matter of 'dumbing down'.

There is an excellent book called 'The Design of Everyday Things'. Its philosophy is -- There should be all the information you need in front of you to let you use something, at least at a basic level.
If you approach a door for the first time, it should be obvious how it works. From the design of the handles you should be able to determine if it opens towards, or away from you, or slides sideways, or even upwards.

It is the same with operating systems. When you start it up the first time, you should easily be able to determine what applications are available, how to operate them, and how to identify, find and install new ones.

If you make it hard or obtuse to use, then only the 'elite' will use it, and we don't want that.

 

[Queen6]

I prefer it as it is. One should be able to learn something before using it. It's an old-fashioned mindset but one I've grown up with. IF Linux got dumbed down to the level the 'masses' want it'd be as pathetic as Windows or any other out there. It's one reason I prefer Android. Even if you're using something ancient like Android 2.3, if you can learn the ins and outs (which isn't that hard) you can make anything run on it. That's the benefit of open-source. With closed-source, you're buying a new PC or tablet or smartphone every few years, over and over again. The planet can't sustain that any more!

Exactly why the masses ignore Linux and why there isn't the SW diversity that many of us need to get the job done. As for Android no thx as is near useless for my needs, worse if Google's involved a hard no as privacy is word they completely ignore for their own greed.

Personally I prefer open source as I don't want to be beholding to any organisation, equally must be on a platform that works for the majority.

Speaks for itself

Value for money indeed, 100% stock not even clean installed...

Q-6

 

[maflynn]

For me, one of the more destructive attitudes which impedes adoption is the arrogance and elitism of many (not all) linux proponents. Asking for help is too often looked down and there are folks that scoff at newbies asking for help. Mind you there are many others who are so helpful, but it only takes one arrogant responder to turn people off.

As for Windows and MacOS, I don't think they're dumbed down by any stretch, if anything Linux with its many distros is overly confusing and that is yet another factor in its inability to increase marketshare. How do you install or uninstall a program? Well that all depends on what distro and DE you're running - they vary wildly. My personal opinion but I would say windows is more efficient in its ability to do many tasks then Linux. I don't consider dragging and dropping dumbed down.

I heard something recently - the 20 second rule, basically if something takes more then 20 seconds to initiate, you're unlikely not continue to do that. If Joe Consumer can do what he needs to do on the mac or Windows, but its not very clear in Linux, he's going to use what works.

Perhaps its an old fashioned mindset but an operating system's job is to run programs, if you have to spend time googling on what to do, then its failing its primary role, imo

The only valid citation is a statement from Microsoft directly that states what you claim.

I think its pretty clear by what MS states what they're intending.
What is the Windows Subsystem for Linux?

 

[grmlin]

I always enjoy it when Linux "experts" tell me that I'm doing it wrong lol. Obvious flaws and problems with Linux and especially their distros are most likely a problem of the user, not the system, in their mind.

Screw that, Linux as a desktop environment is a fragile collection of open source software that works good enough for some veterans with fitting hardware, and is a miserable experience for the rest. It has been like this for decades and I don't see it change anytime soon