MLB Hot Stove Thread 07

[aloofman]

I guess I'm too lenient/naive/forgiving whatever. I don't agree with the "Big Mac, Hall No" article, but then I rarely agree with anything Phil Taylor and S.I. belches out.

But I've been an admitted Rose fan, too. I just don't see how he can dismiss Mac while he winks at Barry whom, btw, I think deserves to be in the Hall. Granted, McGwire's numbers don't match those of Bonds, but I don't agree with siting sordid and sour pasts and character issues as an arbitrary disqualifier, unless we want to talk about Cobb.....again.

My gut instinct is to say leave McGwire, Bonds, and Rose out. The one thing that Taylor gets absolutely right in that article is that there are too many members of the HOF. Phil Rizzuto, for example, doesn't belong in the Hall at all, at least not based on his playing career. So the HOF voters should really be clamping down on who gets in and who shouldn't.

I think the most even-handed argument is to wait longer before trying to figure out what the Steroid Era means in the grand scheme of things. What if a steroid-free Ryan Howard ends up hitting 600 homers? Or A-Rod passes Aaron to become Home Run King? Neither has ever been associated with steroids in any way, but they played in the same era. Would that make steroids seem like less of a difference-maker? I don't know. And what if, a few years from now, proof emerges that some top pitchers like Clemens, Mussina, and Big Unit were taking steroids during the same period? Would that make Bonds' numbers seem less tainted? I don't know that either. What if we find out that Bonds took about the same number of performance-enhancing drugs as many other scrub players who never hit many at all? Would that make steroids seem less likely to be the cause of his inflated numbers? I wonder if anyone even knows enough about it to judge it either way.

There is one thing I'm sure of: baseball as a whole encouraged steroids and/or looked the other way for so long, that it deserves to be saddled with this ugly debate.

 

[IJ Reilly]

You make excellent points about the "steroid era" in baseball. We'll need some years, probably a decade at least, to understand the full implications. Until such time, I agree certain players should probably have their HOF nominations iced. As for Rose, I think some day his numbers will outlive and outlast his personality flaws. I predict he'll finally get voted in when he's an old man. I just hope they don't wait too long and have to do it posthumously.

 

[aloofman]

As for Rose, I think some day his numbers will outlive and outlast his personality flaws. I predict he'll finally get voted in when he's an old man. I just hope they don't wait too long and have to do it posthumously.

I think that would be fitting, actually. I think his accomplishments as a player definitely warrant inducting him and his character is the reason not to, including his bizarre, "No I didn't, yes I did" confessionals, behaving however he thinks will get him into the HOF sooner. One way to acknowledge his playing career without giving him the satisfaction would be to wait until he's passed on.

 

[MacNut]

I think that would be fitting, actually. I think his accomplishments as a player definitely warrant inducting him and his character is the reason not to, including his bizarre, "No I didn't, yes I did" confessionals, behaving however he thinks will get him into the HOF sooner. One way to acknowledge his playing career without giving him the satisfaction would be to wait until he's passed on.

For Rose to get in all of the bitter voters that hate him have to be gone and a new group that can just look at his numbers will be the ones to vote him in.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Not to be a wet blanket, but probably all this HOF chat should have its own thread.

 

[xsedrinam]

Not to be a wet blanket, but probably all this HOF chat should have its own thread.

If it'd get MacDawg back, it would be worth the revisit. According to this the thread hasn't been touched since Jan. '05.

 

[MacNut]

If it'd get MacDawg back, it would be worth the revisit. According to this the thread hasn't been touched since Jan. '05.

ahh yes, that would do.

 

[WildCowboy]

Giants re-sign Ray Durham, Dave Roberts follows Bochy up north, and Rich Aurilia is a physical away from coming back to SF. Giants also close to bringing in Bengie Molina.

 

[MacNut]

Winter Meetings Coverage

Maddux, Drew Leaving Los Angeles
Four-time Cy Young ace Greg Maddux is joining the Padres and right fielder J.D. Drew is headed to Boston as the Dodgers lost two stars on Tuesday. Maddux agreed to a one-year, $10M deal and Drew's is five-years, $70M.

The Boston Red Sox reached a preliminary agreement Tuesday with shortstop Julio Lugo that would pay him $36 million over the next four years.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Maddux, Drew Leaving Los Angeles
Four-time Cy Young ace Greg Maddux is joining the Padres and right fielder J.D. Drew is headed to Boston as the Dodgers lost two stars on Tuesday. Maddux agreed to a one-year, $10M deal and Drew's is five-years, $70M.

The Boston Red Sox reached a preliminary agreement Tuesday with shortstop Julio Lugo that would pay him $36 million over the next four years.

The Maddux deal is not done. Maybe it will be soon, maybe the Dodgers will make another offer tomorrow. We'll see.

The Dodgers lost Drew a week ago, when he opted out of his contract.

 

[Kwyjibo]

The Maddux deal is not done. Maybe it will be soon, maybe the Dodgers will make another offer tomorrow. We'll see.

The Dodgers lost Drew a week ago, when he opted out of his contract.

The deal was not final this afternoon, but foxsports.com's ken rosenthal is reporting that its final. he broke the Soriano story first as well. I would get over the maddux lost, he's been on a slow decline for a while now.

 

[MacNut]

ESPN has also said its a done deal.

 

[IJ Reilly]

ESPN has also said its a done deal.

If the terms (one year) is what ESPN says they are, then I am shocked. The Dodgers were reportedly more flexible.

 

[IJ Reilly]

The reason why the Dodgers were willing to part with Maddux:

Schmidt says he's joining Dodgers

LAKE BUENA VISTA, Fla. -- The Dodgers apparently are on the verge of acquiring the power pitcher they've coveted, as free-agent right-hander Jason Schmidt on Wednesday told former Giants teammates he accepted a three-year, $47 million offer to pitch in Los Angeles.
In acquiring Schmidt, Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti would succeed in a key step of his offseason Plan B -- accumulating surplus starting pitching that not only improves his starting rotation, but could lead to the culmination of Plan A, a power hitter.

The club would not confirm the deal, which would be contingent on Schmidt passing a physical exam. Schmidt's physical condition is no secret to the Dodgers, who recently hired his trainer with the Giants, Stan Conte. Colletti also has familiarity with Schmidt, having helped acquire him as the Giants' assistant general manager.

In Schmidt, the Dodgers not only would get an ace, but take one away from the Giants, a National League West rival. Schmidt, who turns 34 in January, went 11-9 with a 3.59 ERA in 2006, making 32 starts and throwing 213 1/3 innings. He had three complete games, more than the entire Dodgers' staff. In 12 Major League seasons, he has a 127-90 record and 3.91 ERA.

The three-time All-Star would head a rotation that includes Derek Lowe, Brad Penny, Chad Billingsley and Randy Wolf. In addition, the Dodgers have starters Mark Hendrickson, Hong-Chih Kuo and Brett Tomko on their roster. Speculation is bound to include Penny and/or Hendrickson in future talks for a hitter.

The Dodgers apparently won a bidding war that included the Seattle Mariners, Chicago Cubs and St. Louis Cardinals. Schmidt's best seasons were 2003-04, when he went 17-5 with a league-leading 2.34 ERA and 18-7 with a 3.20 ERA. He is coming off a contract that paid him $10.5 million in 2006.

 

[aloofman]

The reason why the Dodgers were willing to part with Maddux:

Setting aside the fact that the price is too high (which is true of anyone you sign these days), I kind of like it. He knows the NL West well. My hazy memory says that he has pitched OK at the Ravine. They didn't give him a crazy-long contract like Zito is rumored to get soon. Although his control has lagged a little in recent years, he's still better than almost anyone else that's available.

Most of all, I suddenly feel much better about the Dodger rotation. Right now it looks like Schmidt, Lowe, Penny, Wolf, and Billingsley or Kuo. With Hendrickson and Tomko still under contract, they have a couple extra starters lying around in case of injury or to trade. On paper* this looks like one of the best rotations in the NL and definitely best in the West.

For the Boston fans: good luck with Drew and Lugo. I'm actually somewhat optimistic that Drew will hit well. He's a very good glove in right field, maybe top 5 in the game. But I don't think his personality is a good fit for the Boston media spotlight. He's quiet at all times and seems to show no reaction whether he succeeds or fails in the clutch. (I'm not holding this against him, just saying I doubt Red Sox Nation will like that.) If the fans turn on him because they think he won't play through pain, it could get ugly. As for Lugo, the phrase "overrated crybaby" comes to mind. Even in a parallel universe where baseball salaries aren't outrageous, Lugo is not worth $9 million per. He reminds me of Jody Reed for some reason.

 

[GnrlyMrly]

ALC.com is reporting that the Braves have traded SP Horacio Ramirez to the Mariners for RP Rafaer Soriano. This gives the Braves a great set-up man for Close Bob Wickman. Now if only we can get a deal done with the Angels to get Figgins and Kotchman for 1B Adam LaRoche.

Lake Buena Vista, Fla. — The Braves finally landed an elite setup man Wednesday when they agreed to trade injury-plagued starting pitcher Horacio Ramirez to Seattle for reliever Rafael Soriano, whose eye-popping statistics include a .212 opponents' average and 177 strikeouts in 171 career innings.

The deal, expected to be announced Thursday, was confirmed by an official with one of the teams. It needed the final approval of a Mariners physician, who was traveling Wednesday.

Trading for Soriano didn't mean the Braves would keep first baseman Adam LaRoche, but they did withdraw their offer of LaRoche for Pirates closer Mike Gonzalez.

The Braves still need to trim payroll, and LaRoche was at the center of several discussions Atlanta had with teams Wednesday.

"I knew it was a possibility, but it's still shocking to me," said Ramirez, 27, after learning of the trade from a reporter. "This is really all I know in professional baseball — the Braves are the ones who gave me the opportunity in '97. But it's a business. What can you say?"

Trading for Soriano could help revive talks between the Braves and Los Angeles Angels, who were prepared earlier this week to send utility man Chone Figgins and first-base prospect Casey Kotchman to the Braves for LaRoche, but balked at including a standout pitcher in the deal.

The Braves may not demand a pitcher if the deal is revived. Figgins could bat leadoff and replace Marcus Giles if the second baseman is traded. Kotchman could compete with Scott Thorman at first base.

Soriano will be the primary setup man for Bob Wickman, who has converted 78 of 87 saves over the past two seasons with Cleveland and Atlanta, including 18 of 19 after a July 20 trade to the Braves.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Setting aside the fact that the price is too high (which is true of anyone you sign these days), I kind of like it. He knows the NL West well. My hazy memory says that he has pitched OK at the Ravine. They didn't give him a crazy-long contract like Zito is rumored to get soon. Although his control has lagged a little in recent years, he's still better than almost anyone else that's available.

Most of all, I suddenly feel much better about the Dodger rotation. Right now it looks like Schmidt, Lowe, Penny, Wolf, and Billingsley or Kuo. With Hendrickson and Tomko still under contract, they have a couple extra starters lying around in case of injury or to trade. On paper* this looks like one of the best rotations in the NL and definitely best in the West.

The Dodgers are certainly pitching-heavy now, and for the first time in many years they've got a very solid starting rotation. The question-mark yet again is middle relief. Schmidt has victimized the Dodgers in the past. That's another good reason to have him switch sides. He's a definite improvement over Maddux.

The Dodgers also signed Luis Gonzales for one year. He's probably about a 1:1 replacement for Drew, with some upside potential if he discovers his power again. Hitting behind Garciaparra and Kent (which I think is the plan), he just might.

 

[aloofman]

The Dodgers also signed Luis Gonzales for one year. He's probably about a 1:1 replacement for Drew, with some upside potential if he discovers his power again. Hitting behind Garciaparra and Kent (which I think is the plan), he just might.

I don't see Gonzo as a replacement for Drew. I doubt he'll get his power back because his shoulder is much weaker than it used to be. His throwing arm is only strong compared to Juan Pierre's. And his age makes it likely he'll get hurt at some point in the year. (OK, so that part's probably a wash compared to Drew.) On the other hand, 52 doubles is more than I would have thought. His OBP is decent. And even though it's more than I'd want to spend for him, it's only for one year, so we're not stuck long-term if his knee explodes or something. It seems similar to signing Nomar, veteran hitter who we can re-sign if he's still good, but will open up a spot for a young guy if he isn't.

I think it's at least as likely that he hits between Nomar and Kent. Gonzo is a lefty and the other two are righties.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I think it's at least as likely that he hits between Nomar and Kent. Gonzo is a lefty and the other two are righties.

Yes, I think you're correct. I believe I read that very thing in the LA Times this morning and then promptly forgot about it. The puzzling part is, I was also reading that Little was talking about batting Pierre third, with Russell in the two-hole and Furcal remaining in the lead-off position. Doesn't make much sense to me, unless they're thinking Gonzo goes into the six spot. Not a great batting position for somebody you hope will hit 20+ homers.

The other thing I read is that Gonzo wants to play LF -- apparently a condition of his signing with the Dodgers. This presumably moves Eithier into right, which might not be a bad deal since Eithier probably has the better arm.

Gonzo is certainly a place-holder, but not a bad one as place-holders go. I think he could put up about the same numbers as Drew, and has about the same health risks. He doesn't AFAIK have the reputation of being a prima-donna, either. I go along with the prediction that Drew is not going to be Mr. Popularity in Boston.

 

[aloofman]

Yes, I think you're correct. I believe I read that very thing in the LA Times this morning and then promptly forgot about it. The puzzling part is, I was also reading that Little was talking about batting Pierre third, with Russell in the two-hole and Furcal remaining in the lead-off position. Doesn't make much sense to me, unless they're thinking Gonzo goes into the six spot. Not a great batting position for somebody you hope will hit 20+ homers.

I think what I read is that it might be Furcal who batted third, with Pierre leadoff and Martin second because he's a good contact hitter. Although I still think Pierre makes too many outs to be a great leadoff hitter, how many great ones are there? That would make for a deep middle of the order if it works, but it depends on whether Martin works as a #2. Lo Duca hit there at times, but he hit into an awful lot of DPs.

Anyway, Furcal shows much more power than Pierre, so it makes sense that they'd like to see what he can do with more runners on base. Based on Little's barely-informative Q&A in the Times yesterday, he's going to experiment with the lineup during spring training and see how it shakes out.

Gonzo is certainly a place-holder, but not a bad one as place-holders go. I think he could put up about the same numbers as Drew, and has about the same health risks. He doesn't AFAIK have the reputation of being a prima-donna, either.

He's really popular in Arizona. When one of the co-owners slipped that his 2001 season was the kind of aberration that steroid hunters look for, there was a lot of outrage. And you know Vin is going to wax poetic about his triplet daughters on a regular basis.

 

[IJ Reilly]

He's really popular in Arizona. When one of the co-owners slipped that his 2001 season was the kind of aberration that steroid hunters look for, there was a lot of outrage. And you know Vin is going to wax poetic about his triplet daughters on a regular basis.

God help us if his wife and kids show up for a home game. Vin definitely has a weakness for tiny tots.

 

[thedude110]

Maddux, Drew Leaving Los Angeles
Four-time Cy Young ace Greg Maddux is joining the Padres and right fielder J.D. Drew is headed to Boston as the Dodgers lost two stars on Tuesday. Maddux agreed to a one-year, $10M deal and Drew's is five-years, $70M.

The Boston Red Sox reached a preliminary agreement Tuesday with shortstop Julio Lugo that would pay him $36 million over the next four years.

I don't get this in the least. I don't see Drew as worth 5 years or 70 million, and I really don't see him as a significant upgrade over the cheaper Trot Nixon. Absolutely baffling.

And Julio Lugo? Do the Sox have so little faith in Dustin Pedroia?

Papelbon better transition well into the rotation or Boston is going to lose a lot of 10-6 types of games this year.

 

[xsedrinam]

I don't get this in the least. I don't see Drew as worth 5 years or 70 million, and I really don't see him as a significant upgrade over the cheaper Trot Nixon. Absolutely baffling.

And Julio Lugo? Do the Sox have so little faith in Dustin Pedroia?

Papelbon better transition well into the rotation or Boston is going to lose a lot of 10-6 types of games this year.

On career stats and projected stats, Drew has turned in sizeable numbers over Nixon. And he's a year younger. Okay, I'm an admitted Drew fan, but that's a hangover from STL days.

 

[IJ Reilly]

That's the difference between large market and small market teams. The big spenders can afford to fork out obscene amounts of cash for marginal talent upgrades. Probably any team other than Boston or the Yankees would stick with a guy like Nixon instead of player like Drew, who looks good on paper but has never quite fulfilled his promise of becoming a real impact player. And Lugo? Admittedly, he didn't get much playing time in LA, but then again, he didn't make anything of the time he had. All we ever heard from him was about his unhappiness. His bat sure didn't have anything to say.

 

[WildCowboy]

Just saw on ESPN that Bonds has agreed in principle to a 1-year, $16 million deal with the Giants...just need to firm everything up. I, for one, am glad that he'll be back in a Giant uniform next year and hope he's healthy enough to get to the record so that this doesn't hang over the franchise again next year.