More Claims of MacBook Pro Adopting MacBook Air Form Factor in 2012 Redesign

[KnightWRX]

That means most retailers are illegally.

Yes, does that surprise you ? Much easier to act illegally and hope no one notices and when one guy walks in with his rights in tow, just give him what he wants and get him out the door quickly. The 99% of other consumers don't know any better and just accept whatever.

but doesn't define what a "reasonable length time" is in regard to price. If I'm poor, does it means that the "reasonable length time" must be longer?

Nope, it depends on the good itself. Judges have awarded warranty repairs for 6 year old TVs based on the fact that a TV should last at least that long before. It's all based on the good itself and its price (a cheap 200$ TV doesn't have the same life expectancy as a 5000$ premium TV set, etc..).

The law is unclear precisely to give the Judge leeway, but the fact remains, manufacturers can't really get away with flimsy 1 year warranties.

Right, they're acting illegally, but good luck defending your rights against a foreign company. And who is actually willing to go up in court, spending weeks while a product is being held by the manufacturer, or otherwise unusable?

Good luck getting extended warranties enforced in many cases too. Ever read the accompanying documents ?

The fact remains, extended warranties are a sham.

 

[Cubytus]

Please tell me how you would prove your point to a lowly salesman or his manager, who is himself accountable to someone higher up. E.g. make them refund Windows when you buy a PC, or have your $2500 Mac serviced free of charge after 3 years (Since I expect such a high-priced computer to last at least 5 years without major failure!)

I'd be willing to know how you can expect to do that in less than an hour and without going to court

Extended warranties from retailers are overpriced sham, and have several limitations. But, this forum being Apple-oriented, just one minor failure such as an audio port short, which is a $.10 part, turns into a $900 repair since they don't "repair" the faulty part. They replace the logic board. Hence, getting an Apple Care warranty pays for itself at the first failure.

 

[KnightWRX]

Please tell me how you would prove your point to a lowly salesman or his manager, who is himself accountable to someone higher up. E.g. make them refund Windows when you buy a PC, or have your $2500 Mac serviced free of charge after 3 years (Since I expect such a high-priced computer to last at least 5 years without major failure!)

I'd be willing to know how you can expect to do that in less than an hour and without going to court

That's why we have small claims court. No lawyers allowed.

Extended warranties from retailers are overpriced sham, and have several limitations. But, this forum being Apple-oriented, just one minor failure such as an audio port short, which is a $.10 part, turns into a $900 repair since they don't "repair" the faulty part. They replace the logic board. Hence, getting an Apple Care warranty pays for itself at the first failure.

My Apple hardware failures and electronic failures in general have always been within the 1 year period anyhow. I would never pay for warranties. And yes I would argue, law in hand and consumer protection agency on the phone with the retailer. In Quebec, most know the law anyhow (and you can bet the Apple people do) and will just cave if you push them a bit.

 

[Cubytus]

That's why we have small claims court. No lawyers allowed.

Indeed what many "active" people try to avoid. Being chained to the slow process of justice.

And it still doesn't answer my question: how do you prove in court that a device costing $2000 while you being relatively poor, that you reasonably expect it to last 4 years, or any arbitrary length of time you choose? While the same device, considering market's standards, is only expected to last 2 years?

Do you ask the retailer and actually expect him to give an honest answer, even in court ?

I already used the small claim court against UPS, but I still ended up losing about two third of the value they lost (and likely stole, but this is not provable), thanks to a bug in their website that wasn't reproducible at the time of the audience.

My Apple hardware failures and electronic failures in general have always been within the 1 year period anyhow. I would never pay for warranties. And yes I would argue, law in hand and consumer protection agency on the phone with the retailer. In Quebec, most know the law anyhow (and you can bet the Apple people do) and will just cave if you push them a bit.

You would argue, but by the time you argue, you still can't use the good you paid for. So even if you win in the end, you may still be deprived of your working tool for a very long time.

Well, so what are my options here as I bought a Mac with the young salesman reassuring me that Snow Leopard would run fine on this computer? They are not techies. It does run SL. It just doesn't install SL from either a DVD, or a cloned install image on an external drive.

 

[KnightWRX]

Indeed what many "active" people try to avoid. Being chained to the slow process of justice.

And it still doesn't answer my question: how do you prove in court that a device costing $2000 while you being relatively poor, that you reasonably expect it to last 4 years, or any arbitrary length of time you choose? While the same device, considering market's standards, is only expected to last 2 years?

What does being poor have to do with it ? It's based on the device, not your income. 2nd, legal precedants. If you bother to search and read them, judges usually base their decisions on their own expectations and experience with products, based on the price of the product itself and the type of product.

 

[Cubytus]

I'm glad people like you set legal precedents about common rights to help other people who may actually care about defending them.

"Bothering to search and read" takes vast amounts of time that some of us simply don't have, or money (even no lawyer allowed in court, does it stop you from asking one about the precedents? He's surely much more efficient than a common citizen). Yet I don't expect a judge to know every nook and cranny of cases they will rule upon.

RANT MODE:ON
Montreal thrives about people not knowing their rights. Housing rights are commonly violated, and landlords simply reject you if you don't bend to their illegal requirements. Consumer's rights, also.

In the end, we still end up losing: time, money, or opportunity, or all of them at the same time. Even if you win in the end.
How do you make up for these loss while justice is being ruled?
RANT MODE:OFF

 

[neversink]

the MBP with DVD drive has its place..

Let's not water down the MBP....

I travel with my laptop everywhere, particularly to Africa. I make my living as a photographer, and I HAVE TO BURN DVDs and / or CDs. This is my computer in the field.

My kids want an Air... but I NEED a laptop that is a workhorse.

If Apple continues on this watering down trend of every product they make, then i will be FORCED to purchase some lame Dell or other laptop and Hackintosh it.

Is that what you want Apple????

And Apple, please bring back a removable battery so I can switch out in the field where I have no electricity. (Third party batteries that hook up to USB are great, but not as integrated as a removable battery would be.

Why has Apple forgotten that a laptop is to be used in the field away from the luxuries of electrical grid and the office where another computer's DVD could be shared????

 

[damir00]

Why has Apple forgotten that a laptop is to be used in the field away from the luxuries of electrical grid and the office where another computer's DVD could be shared????

Probably because a very small minority of customers actually do that.

 

[adder7712]

The MacBook Pro can be a very thin laptop but still retain a DVD drive.

I surely hope the upcoming model is like that.

 

[RBR2]

Let's not water down the MBP....

I travel with my laptop everywhere, particularly to Africa. I make my living as a photographer, and I HAVE TO BURN DVDs and / or CDs. This is my computer in the field.

My kids want an Air... but I NEED a laptop that is a workhorse.

If Apple continues on this watering down trend of every product they make, then i will be FORCED to purchase some lame Dell or other laptop and Hackintosh it.

Is that what you want Apple????

And Apple, please bring back a removable battery so I can switch out in the field where I have no electricity. (Third party batteries that hook up to USB are great, but not as integrated as a removable battery would be.

Why has Apple forgotten that a laptop is to be used in the field away from the luxuries of electrical grid and the office where another computer's DVD could be shared????

I don't know the quantity of images you capture when in the field, but have you considered using (multiple) hard drives? Several professional photographers I have spoken with view the day's images on their laptops at night and transfer them to at least two external drives in addition to the internal drive so that they can spread them out in different bags, one of which never leaves their person. They do this so that, in the worst event, they can at least save their images from the trip and let the insurance pay for the lost/stolen hardware. One even commented to me that he considered himself fortunate that he had never lost his kit on the way to Africa because it would be unlikely that they would have been able to easily replace it in time to be of use for the trip, although they probably would have borrowed something from one of the participants in the tour they were leading.

I would still like the option of using an optical disc even though many, if not most, people seem to be removing the optical drive to install a SSD for the OS & Apps with the (Home folder) data on the rotating drive. Typically, they install the optical drive in a small external case and get along fairly well with the combination.

A few even think the current MBA has enough processing power to run LR & PS at least for the sort of work they will be doing in the field. I am willing to be convinced of this, but want more definitive reports first.

Cheers

 

[Hornhonker]

I work for a retail outfit and we sell probably about 20 to 1 MBP to Airs. Loss of the DVD drive is a big negative according to what customers are telling us.

 

[RBR2]

I work for a retail outfit and we sell probably about 20 to 1 MBP to Airs. Loss of the DVD drive is a big negative according to what customers are telling us.

Interesting information. Thanks for posting.

 

[KnightWRX]

I work for a retail outfit and we sell probably about 20 to 1 MBP to Airs. Loss of the DVD drive is a big negative according to what customers are telling us.

I think your numbers are way off. Apple has said that the Air has been a big success and is one of their best selling Macs.

 

[aoaaron]

thinness + form << function

i hope apple remember this.

if i want a thin mobile laptop, i'll get a MBA. if they ruin the MBP from the versatile powerhouse it is... things could get complicated.

 

[MorphingDragon]

thinness + form << function

i hope apple remember this.

if i want a thin mobile laptop, i'll get a MBA. if they ruin the MBP from the versatile powerhouse it is... things could get complicated.

Complicated?

Its a god damn laptop! There are city streets more complicated.

I think your numbers are way off. Apple has said that the Air has been a big success and is one of their best selling Macs.

Apple doesn't segment Geographically, there is not point. Cultures will always differ.

 

[Yebubbleman]

I think it's useless frankly. I use it as a clock on my kitchen counter. Using it as a web browser or anything for more than 2 minutes makes me miss my laptop.

Fortunately, I didn't pay iPad prices to find out what I knew : I hate the tablet form factor.

That's actually disappointing to hear. I always though that the OS was the best out of all of the tablet/smartphone OSes out there, but if you don't like the tablet form factor, you don't like the tablet form factor.

Let's not water down the MBP....

I travel with my laptop everywhere, particularly to Africa. I make my living as a photographer, and I HAVE TO BURN DVDs and / or CDs. This is my computer in the field.

My kids want an Air... but I NEED a laptop that is a workhorse.

If Apple continues on this watering down trend of every product they make, then i will be FORCED to purchase some lame Dell or other laptop and Hackintosh it.

Is that what you want Apple????

And Apple, please bring back a removable battery so I can switch out in the field where I have no electricity. (Third party batteries that hook up to USB are great, but not as integrated as a removable battery would be.

Why has Apple forgotten that a laptop is to be used in the field away from the luxuries of electrical grid and the office where another computer's DVD could be shared????

I'd wager some serious money that even after the next refresh, there will be at least one Mac notebook with an optical drive. It might just be the 17", but nevertheless, there will still be one.

Probably because a very small minority of customers actually do that.

I have a 2010 model Mac mini Server that I use as a non-server Mac running the client version of Mac OS X. I ordinarily have an LG external optical drive, but I don't have room on the desk that I'm using for it, so I'm stuck with remote disc, which is intermittent with the machines I use. Talk about completely inconvenient. For a MacBook Pro this would be inexcusably annoying; I'm sorry if you disagree.

The MacBook Pro can be a very thin laptop but still retain a DVD drive.

I surely hope the upcoming model is like that.

It won't get thinner and still retain the ODD unless the ODD gets thinner too, which it shouldn't. Neither of them should get any thinner, really; it decreases the performance and reliability of the machine.

I work for a retail outfit and we sell probably about 20 to 1 MBP to Airs. Loss of the DVD drive is a big negative according to what customers are telling us.

Somehow, I'm not at all surprised; my own polling suggests similar results. The reality distortion field in these forums is really something.

thinness + form << function

i hope apple remember this.

if i want a thin mobile laptop, i'll get a MBA. if they ruin the MBP from the versatile powerhouse it is... things could get complicated.

Truth.

Complicated?

Its a god damn laptop!

Yes, and trying to get a laptop to do things more complicated than it can is complicated in and of itself! Not to mention annoying.

 

[MorphingDragon]

Hum, yes I do live in Quebec, and if you don't know, the law here is clear and so is the legal precedents :

http://www2.publicationsduquebec.go...lecharge.php?type=2&file=/P_40_1/P40_1_A.html


Extended warranties are a sham because you're already covered by the Consumer Protection Act and the "fit for the purposes". Small claims court have given awards based on the simple fact that no, a refrigator is not something you change every year. Same for a TV or computer. 1 year warranties in Quebec are illegal basically, unless the good sold is something that has only a year of expected life.

So yes, I'm from Quebec, it's just that I actually know the law that protects me. Pays to know your rights.

New Zealand has (similar) extensive Consumer Protection. I have basically gotten free upgrades on high end equipment and whiteware because they broke within the timeframe the consumer's commissioner set but the manufacturer doesn't make the item anymore.

Best one was an Upgrade from HD595s to HD598's, they fit my head a little better.

Yes, and trying to get a laptop to do things more complicated than it can is complicated in and of itself! Not to mention annoying.

If equipment doesn't meet your needs then you drop it like a rock. The complications lie with the user in such cases.

 

[adder7712]

Yes, and trying to get a laptop to do things more complicated than it can is complicated in and of itself! Not to mention annoying.

Agreed.

Setup 1: MacBook Pro (built-in ODD and more than 1 USB port)
Setup 2: MacBook Air Pro + External SuperDrive (or any other external ODD) + USB hub

I can live an entire month without using an ODD (I just did, never used the SuperDrive in a January) but it's a hassle to use an external ODD in the rare times you need it, like to rip a CD, burn a CD/DVD etc.

Not to mention they have to sacrifice the number of ports if Apple decided to adopt the MBA form factor for the MBP.

I think it's unlikely, talk about hardware constraints as MBPs are Apple's prosumer laptops.

 

[Cubytus]

Probably because a very small minority of customers actually do that.

Reality distortion field, all the way.

It's not because many people buy laptops out of fashion when they'd rather want the power of a desktop that a laptop isn't meant to be used offline. Those are desktop replacement. If battery life determines what is a "true" laptop, then MacBooks Pros certainly are. The Air is just a small toy, to me, catering to the first category of people, since its battery life is so low, just as netbooks were (but not to the same extent when you expect your netbook's battery to die in less than 3 hours)

I would also like Apple to bring back the removable battery. Its not I really like the lower capacity, but for those who actually like Lion and use compatible applications, it starts so fast while restoring open applications there's little concern about shutting down.

The MacBook Pro can be a very thin laptop but still retain a DVD drive.

I surely hope the upcoming model is like that.

Actually, it seems there are a few millimeters that can be shaven off the current design if Apple makes the large aluminum areas more rigid so they don't touch internal components.

They could also do as they did with the two Mini versions back in 2009: one server with two hard drives and no ODD, and one with the same power, but thinner, without ODD but adding a second HDD. Sadly, they didn't seem to acknowledge the Mini's common use as a home theater computer when they dropped the ODD.

I work for a retail outfit and we sell probably about 20 to 1 MBP to Airs. Loss of the DVD drive is a big negative according to what customers are telling us.

Well, what kind of people buy laptops from your retail point? Students, hippies, hipsters, professionals?

If equipment doesn't meet your needs then you drop it like a rock. The complications lie with the user in such cases.

I wouldn't use that expression. Even a bad Mac doesn't deserved to be treated like a rock, even for cutting a cake.

 

[toddybody]

Unless there's a major technological breakthrough with these new Ivy Bridge chips, I don't know how anyone expects an Air-like MacBook Pro to run at the same "Pro" level. There would seem to be a number of battery life and heat issues that need to be addressed.

Whys that?

IB should give some great improvements in the IGP arena...so I think battery life will imporove because of a less constant need for dedicated graphics. Secondly, its going to provide greater performance per watt...so from a processing perspective, it should be MORE powerful than previous generations(when comparing to previous gen SB). From a GPU perspective, the 7xxxM should provide even better muscle.

Taking away the ODD, slimming the body a tad, and giving it a bigger battery isnt going to change it's "'Pro' Level". Think of it as a diet

Cheers friend!

 

[MorphingDragon]

I wouldn't use that expression. Even a bad Mac doesn't deserved to be treated like a rock, even for cutting a cake.

Yes it does. I've even stripped are particularly far gone MBP and used it as a cricket bat.

 

[Murgatroyd314]

Secondly, its going to provide greater performance per watt...so from a processing perspective, it should be MORE powerful than previous generations(when comparing to previous gen SB).

If I'm remembering correctly, IB has something like a 20% increase in performance per watt. In order to deal with the reduced cooling capacity of the full MBA form, wattage would have to be reduced by about 50%.

1.2 performance per watt * 0.5 wattage = 0.6 performance. That's a 40% decrease. I don't see that happening.

 

[1BlinkGone]

let's not water down the mbp....

I travel with my laptop everywhere, particularly to africa. I make my living as a photographer, and i have to burn dvds and / or cds. This is my computer in the field.

My kids want an air... But i need a laptop that is a workhorse.

If apple continues on this watering down trend of every product they make, then i will be forced to purchase some lame dell or other laptop and hackintosh it.

Is that what you want apple????

And apple, please bring back a removable battery so i can switch out in the field where i have no electricity. (third party batteries that hook up to usb are great, but not as integrated as a removable battery would be.

Why has apple forgotten that a laptop is to be used in the field away from the luxuries of electrical grid and the office where another computer's dvd could be shared????

Word.

 

[damir00]

Talk about completely inconvenient. For a MacBook Pro this would be inexcusably annoying; I'm sorry if you disagree.

What are you apologizing for, exactly? I didn't agree or disagree with anything.

Merely pointed out most laptop buyers don't fit that particular use case.

 

[linux2mac]

Just when I thought the best laptops in the industry could not get any better, they do. Looking forward to replacing my aging 2010 13" MBP soon.