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More Details on Apple's Intel Mac
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kester said:
You mean all that preinstalled stuff like iLife, AppleWorks, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, QuickBooks, Zinio Reader, and "Art Director's Toolkit"?
Yeah, me neither.
tdewey said:
Who cares if a handful of hackers have a custom machine? It doesn't harm apple's bottom line.
The important thing is that Apple could legally prevent a company from selling mac clones... and it's only the sort of volumes that a company could ship that really matter.
kester said:
Yeah, but the post you replied to referred to using an install disc from one manufacturer on that of another. You generally can't do that with Windows OEM versions that are manufacturer and model-specific in the same way that your OS X install disc that came with your G5 Powermac may not want to install on your G4 iBook.
Well dude, maybe you should read the post you replied to thouroughlykester said:
Apple already does that.
mmmm
sorry, but apart from the fact that Mr. Jobs will obviously have already thought of this, if at all viable... in what way would this be a bad thing? i mean surely the more people that are using this great OS, the better, and the more interested the developers get.
not likeing Wintel users because they're Wintel users is very sad... why can't everybody start taking a more positive stance on the matter and start showing other OS users the benefits, encourage the evolution af the OS in general ?
bit late but i just saw this one
brap said:
sorry, but apart from the fact that Mr. Jobs will obviously have already thought of this, if at all viable... in what way would this be a bad thing? i mean surely the more people that are using this great OS, the better, and the more interested the developers get.
not likeing Wintel users because they're Wintel users is very sad... why can't everybody start taking a more positive stance on the matter and start showing other OS users the benefits, encourage the evolution af the OS in general ?
bit late but i just saw this one
tdewey said:
OS X on my Thinkpad X31...........
I'm going to be honest. If I get a 15" or 17" Pentium M PowerBook with a restore CD and someone hacks OS X x86 I'm going to put it on my 12" X31 so I can have my cake (PowerBook) and eat it too. (X31 highly portable.)
MacRohde said:
Apple is more subtle and tasteful about it, with better judgement about what to include and how to present it.
They don't splatter sponsored items all over the desktop like brand names on a Nascar racer.
On Windows, the vendor is more interested in giving an advertiser good value for their money. Apple is more interested in giving the user more value for their money.
Quartz Extreme said:
And then you have to decide whether that chip is flash-able. There was a Windows virus I remember back in 1999 that overwrote the bios chips on some early celeron motherboards, effectively destroying them. We don't want anything like that happening to our beloved Macs. With Open Firmware that hasn't even been a danger, and you have to hope we don't go sailing into some choppy waters.
1. Apple will have some type of chip built into the motherboard that OS X will have to recognize to boot. So, you will not be able to boot OS X on non-Apple machines.
2. The consumer machines will look nothing like these developer machines. Steve said it himself during the keynote...that is why they want them back.
2. The consumer machines will look nothing like these developer machines. Steve said it himself during the keynote...that is why they want them back.
Game Devs?
>>
- Game devs optimistic. "They look forward to the day they don't have to support PPC."
<<
My question: Why?
First I would like to mention that i *am* a game developer (coder) anf for more than 4 years I earn my money with this. Please don't kill me: I do development for the Win platform, I would like to do it for Mac, but my boss hates Macs.
I have C++ code, about 100.000 lines. How much assembler code do I have? It is exactly 5 lines ! Well there is some code that depends on little endian, but making work arounds would just take about a week, beleave me. I cannot easily make a Mac port, because we use DirectX, but that is a different story. But CPU is allmost irrelevant for game development. I don't see any problem supporting PPC and Intel (with UniversalBinaries) since G5 has enaugh performance for good games. Sure, you have to test on both, but that is something usual. On PC you have to test on a lot of systems, esp. gfx cards are only compatible in theory
A small hobby project I have done on Mac was compiled into a Universal binary with minor changes and it took me less than an hour. Of course I cannot test on MacTel now, but since I allready had a port running on Win I know there are no endian problems and I am 99% sure that the binary will run on MacTel.
From my point of view as a developer there is no reason to wish a "fast death" to the PPC. Clean design makes software very independent of the cpu and I have also coded on other cpus (including 68k).
If you need a really good computer *now* I think you should still by a G5. They won't explode when the Intels are out and there is no reason for a developer to loose customers by not making it work on ppc. The extra time you have to invest is *nothing* compared to total development time. PPC Macs (esp. G5 based Macs) are still great computers an they will be great computers in the next years....
So why should a game developer "look forward" to the day when ppc dies? I don't understand. Supporting both is easy enaugh....
Christian
>>
- Game devs optimistic. "They look forward to the day they don't have to support PPC."
<<
My question: Why?
First I would like to mention that i *am* a game developer (coder) anf for more than 4 years I earn my money with this. Please don't kill me: I do development for the Win platform, I would like to do it for Mac, but my boss hates Macs.
I have C++ code, about 100.000 lines. How much assembler code do I have? It is exactly 5 lines ! Well there is some code that depends on little endian, but making work arounds would just take about a week, beleave me. I cannot easily make a Mac port, because we use DirectX, but that is a different story. But CPU is allmost irrelevant for game development. I don't see any problem supporting PPC and Intel (with UniversalBinaries) since G5 has enaugh performance for good games. Sure, you have to test on both, but that is something usual. On PC you have to test on a lot of systems, esp. gfx cards are only compatible in theory
A small hobby project I have done on Mac was compiled into a Universal binary with minor changes and it took me less than an hour. Of course I cannot test on MacTel now, but since I allready had a port running on Win I know there are no endian problems and I am 99% sure that the binary will run on MacTel.
From my point of view as a developer there is no reason to wish a "fast death" to the PPC. Clean design makes software very independent of the cpu and I have also coded on other cpus (including 68k).
If you need a really good computer *now* I think you should still by a G5. They won't explode when the Intels are out and there is no reason for a developer to loose customers by not making it work on ppc. The extra time you have to invest is *nothing* compared to total development time. PPC Macs (esp. G5 based Macs) are still great computers an they will be great computers in the next years....
So why should a game developer "look forward" to the day when ppc dies? I don't understand. Supporting both is easy enaugh....
Christian
Yeao
Well this is certainly far from true, While it would be true that Apple wouldn' t have there hands on the cell processor till much later then sony (sony being in the group that made it) its certainly not true that its only indended for game machines. The cell processor is intended to be a cheap yet exceedingly powerful cpu thats indended for uses in everything from supercomputers to embedded devices. Its IBMs allround cheap processors, or thats the intent.
and now for some proof, pick up your Cell Workstation at linuxtag (its hardly suprising that its a linux workstation IBM loves linux )
On the subject that you will be able to run Windows on the new intel macs, I really can't see the point, I would buy mac os to put on my home made pc but I would never buy an overpriced pritty box to install windows XP on..
My next computer is definatly going to be a cell
Well just incase no one notices all 3 next genration consoles have PowerPC's, PS3, Nintendo Revolutions and XBOX360 just as little people will produce games for the mac as did before, but hey... atleast now something like cedega might appear(
Well this is certainly far from true, While it would be true that Apple wouldn' t have there hands on the cell processor till much later then sony (sony being in the group that made it) its certainly not true that its only indended for game machines. The cell processor is intended to be a cheap yet exceedingly powerful cpu thats indended for uses in everything from supercomputers to embedded devices. Its IBMs allround cheap processors, or thats the intent.
and now for some proof, pick up your Cell Workstation at linuxtag (its hardly suprising that its a linux workstation IBM loves linux
)On the subject that you will be able to run Windows on the new intel macs, I really can't see the point, I would buy mac os to put on my home made pc but I would never buy an overpriced pritty box to install windows XP on..
My next computer is definatly going to be a cell
Well just incase no one notices all 3 next genration consoles have PowerPC's, PS3, Nintendo Revolutions and XBOX360 just as little people will produce games for the mac as did before, but hey... atleast now something like cedega might appear(
sokalegga said:
I'm unsure whether Volkswagen Group sales have dropped overall, but my impression is that similar models from Skoda and SEAT created market confusion and cannibalized VW sales.
It's akin to when Power Computing and the other Macintosh clones stole sales from the Mac. Because although uglier, the clones were faster and cheaper.
PretendPCuser said:My prediction is that this is the first step to an Apple-HP partnership/acquistion. If Apple's manufacturing is used to producing 1,000,000 powermacs a quarter (hypothetical) are they going to be able to get the same manufacturers that produce cases, mobos, etc. to produce 5,000,000 a quarter if things take off? I think in this space, (as well as distribution) Apple can benefit from that kind of partnership.
I'm predicting within 2 years of Apple going all Intel (2007+2=2009 for the mathematically challenged) Apple and HP will be working together on producing boxes.
Or was it Sony?
Anyone else for speculation?
It would be awesome to have Apple selling that many Power Mac's a month or quarter. Then the partnership would be very advantageous.
One thing I've noticed is that no matter how good the Apple platform is, you guys are all WAY too elitist.
Personally, with this announcement, I believe Apple should sell a retail box version of OS X for any PC. And it wouldn't surprise me - of course they said they won't; they don't want to get Microsoft worried...
Apple has two choices:
1. Get even more of the general population to hate their platform and continue dying a slow death in the OS side, while becoming a music vendor.
2. Kick Windows out of the number 1 spot by rapidly getting everybody they can on OS X before Microsoft knows what hit them.
OS X is a nice platform and I sincerely hope that Apple ends up making the right choice rather than locking their OS to their hardware.
Personally, with this announcement, I believe Apple should sell a retail box version of OS X for any PC. And it wouldn't surprise me - of course they said they won't; they don't want to get Microsoft worried...
Apple has two choices:
1. Get even more of the general population to hate their platform and continue dying a slow death in the OS side, while becoming a music vendor.
2. Kick Windows out of the number 1 spot by rapidly getting everybody they can on OS X before Microsoft knows what hit them.
OS X is a nice platform and I sincerely hope that Apple ends up making the right choice rather than locking their OS to their hardware.
markie said:
Well, there lies the problem.
This problem plagues Windows: Drivers.
If it has to run on any PC, it has to run on Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq...etc
And, if they started doing this, their hardware sales, (which account for a huge percentage of the money they make) would go down the tubes.
They very well may sell a retail box of OS X, but not yet. At this point, it's just too risky...
Since I don't like Windows and Linux isn't a very good desktop OS...yet, I switched to Mac.
Now that Mac has totally betrayed me and gone to Intel, I think I am going to just stick it to the man and not use a computer anymore. I am going to try this new technology called a book.
Man I can't wait to just stick it to Apple for making a better computer.
Mike
BTW: That was sarcasm. Mac made a switch to Intel, get over it. Things are going to be ok.
Now that Mac has totally betrayed me and gone to Intel, I think I am going to just stick it to the man and not use a computer anymore. I am going to try this new technology called a book.
Man I can't wait to just stick it to Apple for making a better computer.
Mike
BTW: That was sarcasm. Mac made a switch to Intel, get over it. Things are going to be ok.
christian_k said:
Don't have the link, but according to devs 1/3 of porting a game to the Mac is fixing endian issues.
Sounds like they're going to be the first group to go Intel only. Which might not be that bad as I'm going to guess that Mac gamers are going to be among the first to purchase Mactel platforms for, among other things, the dual boot capability (I certainly am).
T
keynote
if everybody watched the keynote, theyd be as coooooool about this as me and steve
things are looking great
anf the future looks brighter than ever!
if everybody watched the keynote, theyd be as coooooool about this as me and steve
things are looking great
anf the future looks brighter than ever!
Quartz Extreme said:Well, there lies the problem.
This problem plagues Windows: Drivers.
If it has to run on any PC, it has to run on Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq...etc
And, if they started doing this, their hardware sales, (which account for a huge percentage of the money they make) would go down the tubes.
They very well may sell a retail box of OS X, but not yet. At this point, it's just too risky...
Drivers aren't nearly as bad as they used to be back in the ISA day. Cards and devices are smarter and more standardized.
Apple could credibly support only peripherals that could connect to their own Intel hardware. Then they wouldn't have to worry about supporting old hardware, things that connect to the parallel port or ISA slots, etc.
USB makes it pretty easy to offer a minimum level of generic support for many devices, making drivers unneccessary in most cases.
I suspect the biggest issues would come from graphics cards and sound cards.
VicMacs said:
You ain't kidding. I think there needs to be a prerequisite for being able to post to Macintel threads. That being you need be be able to post what is being talked about at time index 29:18 or something. Seriously. Steve's RD field may have been working overtime. (I think that is why Mac rumors date stamps where messed up before it crashed. He created a RDF bubble that effected MR's servers.
) but he made perfect sense.