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wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
ARM is intently competitive. Both reference design chips and custom chips.
Thats why we have had such an insane speed growth in ARM since Iphone. It was an 416mhz ARM.

Today we have 4+4 cores/4 cores ARM 15 at 2 to 3 ghz. Upwards 20 times faster in 7 years.
This is a little misleading as ARM didn't target the high performance market until recently. Sure the growth has been significant but it is also a shift in ARMs focus.
Compare that with X86 since 2006. Less then 200% speed increase till 2013.

Its incredible that Apple choose to compete in this market when there are so many vendors to pit against each other. But this is Apples unique position: they control both hardware and software. This gives Apple the ability to put custom DSP and stuff into their SoC's just for their OS.
They really have no choice. The System on Chip (SoC) is the printed circuit board of the seventies. That is it is where you put your engineering talent. If Woz was to start out today he would be designing SoC.
The A5 SoC had 30% die area with Apple specific stuff. Like the "Apple visual processor (in real world NOVA SIMD), noise cancellation DSPs for Siri, Dual channel RAM and so on.
Which can only improve.
Apple will continue with their custom SoCs. One thing that is real interesting is Anobit and their/Apples SSD controllers. We will move to fast NAND FLASH chips in iPad/iPhone. Imagine having 550 megs/sec bandwidth. Its possible with lightning to thunderbolt connector or gigabit WiFi.
Yes this is very very very interesting. Embedding a high performance flash controller on chip has to be a high priority at Apple. Even better lower power high performance flash is coming to market.
Remember that Apple's goal is to replace Intel with their own SoC.
Bull crap. They have said nothing to that effect, to imply that they have taken such a position publicly is just misleading. They may have that goal but if so it hasn't been made public. Further it really doesn't make sense right now to replace Intel.
Todays AIRs/Macbook pros the Intel CPU/Motherboard is 50% of BOM. Apple and the consumers could save huge by dumping X86. A 1970 technology.

Sure you save some but you also loose some. One of the big reasons I went for a MBP is the ability to run other operating systems easily. Due to legacy issues that won't change in the near future.
 

mozumder

macrumors 65816
Mar 9, 2009
1,288
4,418
Actually I'm under the impression that that would be a rather small team.

I think this is only front-end architects, which would be a lot. I don't think not counting back-end physical designer or other test/verification engineers available from the rest of Apple.

I doubt this very much. Beyond that you seem to underestimate just how often GPUs are used in today's software. Often the usage has nothing to do with gaming. Further I'd expect the results of this expansion to produce a processor that looks significantly different than today's SoC.

It looks like they might be going with a significant architectural change on the order of what AMD is doing with their CPU/GPU integration.
 

Millah

macrumors 6502a
Aug 6, 2008
866
515
Speaking of traffic I hope Apple insures these guys well. Florida has possibly the worst drivers in the country, very inconsiderate. I spent a week down there for vacation a couple of years ago. For one week I saw way to many major car crashes - very disturbing. Maybe I was unlucky but I lost several hours over the course of the week waiting for wrecks to be cleared, pretty nasty looking wrecks too.

No thats pretty typical for Florida, lol. Orlando area has some pretty horrendous drivers on I-4. Think of the population of FL, many older/retired people.

Orlando really is pretty terrible with accidents. Its partly due to the design of the roads here. I-4 is just terrible, there's a turn/exit which is notorious for causing accidents, and they recently redid the whole area. Well, it hasn't helped much with accidents. A lot of the roads in FL are just confusing as well, so you have confused tourists mixed with clueless old people....its not a good combination.
 

herr_neumann

macrumors 6502
Mar 27, 2003
327
4
Roseville, Ca
Speaking of traffic I hope Apple insures these guys well. Florida has possibly the worst drivers in the country, very inconsiderate. I spent a week down there for vacation a couple of years ago. For one week I saw way to many major car crashes - very disturbing. Maybe I was unlucky but I lost several hours over the course of the week waiting for wrecks to be cleared, pretty nasty looking wrecks too.

Insert joke about the elderly here....
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
Which can only improve.

And has. The redesigned single core A5 in the new ATV is highly customized.

Yes this is very very very interesting. Embedding a high performance flash controller on chip has to be a high priority at Apple. Even better lower power high performance flash is coming to market.

Look for them to go 3D like Sony did with the Vita and get a huge memory interface for stupid memory bandwidth too.

Bull crap. They have said nothing to that effect, to imply that they have taken such a position publicly is just misleading. They may have that goal but if so it hasn't been made public. Further it really doesn't make sense right now to replace Intel.

Agreed. I don't think there's a solid case for abandoning x86 due to legacy and other OS implications.
 

iSunrise

macrumors 6502
May 11, 2012
382
118
I'm somewhat nervous about Apple developing its own GPU technology (if that's indeed what this means). We've seen thus far that Apple's move to develop its own CPU technology (Apple armv7s swift core versus licensing ARM Cortex A15) has served it well in the iPad 4 and iPhone 5, but licensing PowerVR intellectual property from Imgtech has always kept Apple on the forefront of mobile graphics. Every generation of iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch has licensed the GPU technology from Imgtech and they've always, always had the fastest GPUs of any given generation. And Imgtech's roadmap seems pretty Apple friendly: OpenGL ES 3.0 support and OpenCL support, the two huge graphics technologies that Apple is backing.

So I wonder what spurs this move for Apple to create its own GPU design center. What are they looking for that Imgtech has not provided them? What are they going to use these resources to do?
You have to look at this in the very long-term. Yes, IMGTec already has Rogue and probably also some future IP for future Apple use and Apple seems to do a perfect job writing the graphics drivers for PowerVR graphics for iOS, but Apple is not going to develop for different systems forever.

I´ve adressed this in one of my past posts in a news article (too lazy to dig it out now):

Apple seems to have a long-term plan to merge iOS and MacOS platforms. And I´m not talking solely software (Apple has never been purely about software), but also their hardware. This may not be perfectly obvious right now, but as features and performance/capacity and most important TDP of Desktop devices (CPU/GPU) are almost at a point already, where you could swap an Apple developed SoC for e.x. an Intel CPU/GPU combination (which Apple is already using in their other Mac products) there will be no need anymore for IMGTec´s PowerVR technology, if Apple is able to build their own CPU (which they do already -> SWIFT) and GPU in-house.

Consider this a grand vision of things, which is also evident given the internal changes at Apple. The iOS team(s) closely working with the MacOS team(s). The next MacOS (WWDC) should integrate a lot more stuff that was purely mobile (iOS) specific before.

If you have the ability to put in a e.x. a powerful x86/x64 compatible chip, which not only runs a lot more software, but also does it extremely fast, which also has a TDP comparable to a purely mobile based SoC with it´s own ecosystem, why would you go for a mobile SoC? You wouldn´t. Intel (because AMD can´t keep up and Desktop is going away slowly) slowed down it´s pace already, they are targeting mobiles now, which means that soon, there will be not much of a difference anymore between a CPU/GPU chip or a SoC. And Apple knows that.

---
Mobile devices are going to eat into Desktop even more in the future when that step has been accomplished. The world is about mobility and flexibility and if you can carry around enough horsepower and compatibility for >=95% of your everyday work and all that with at least 10 hours battery time there´s simply no need for a Desktop. Yes, there still will be the additional Desktop at home when you demand maximum performance, a bigger screen, more connectivity, etc., so Desktop is not going to go away entirely.

A device that let´s you work with maximum compatibility, flexibility and with professional software on the go. A classic laptop is not the answer, because a Laptop basically copies what a Desktop does, it´s just a lot smaller. A tablet, however, can do everything a Laptop can do (with an additional keyboard or a pen for certain situations, when you need it) in even less space, touch input, and more tightly integrated stuff.

The iPad currently is largely a consumer device. It does it´s work, but it´s not a device I would consider a professional tablet. There´s just not enough good software that lets me work productive on it. And that´s a shame given the great hardware it already has. The current Surface Pro shows that there is incredible potential in that sector. It´s still too limited by battery time, performance, size and weight, but - like already explained - don´t expect that to be the case forever.
 
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gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Have you actually read about the XBox division profit despite the fact they had to dish out millions of consoles for free due to that infamous RROD engineering error?

Have you actually read what is all part of what you call "XBox division"? One part of that division happens to be the Macintosh software unit. So every time someone buys Microsoft Office for the Mac, it adds profit to the so-called "XBox division".
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
Have you actually read what is all part of what you call "XBox division"? One part of that division happens to be the Macintosh software unit. So every time someone buys Microsoft Office for the Mac, it adds profit to the so-called "XBox division".

Macintosh software is a part of their entertainment and devices division? News to me.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Oh. The Apple TV sold astonishing 13 Million units according to this point.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/28/4374480/apple-tv-sales-13-million-to-date

Yeah - you can spin that statistic into "But they sold 6.5 million last year and outsold the XBox." Oh great, they outsold the gaming consoles at the end of their respective life cycles. *slow hand clapping*

Microsoft sold 77 million Xbox in 7 1/2 years, that's about 10 million per year. Apple sold 6.5 million Apple TV in the last year. Xbox sales are shrinking, Apple TV sales are growing. But remember, Apple TV is just "a hobby". Consoles are suffering the same fate as PCs, they are going to be beaten by smartphones and tablets.

----------

Macintosh software is a part of their entertainment and devices division? News to me.

How do you think is that division making profits?
 

holmesf

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2001
528
25
ARM is intently competitive. Both reference design chips and custom chips.
Thats why we have had such an insane speed growth in ARM since Iphone. It was an 416mhz ARM.

Today we have 4+4 cores/4 cores ARM 15 at 2 to 3 ghz. Upwards 20 times faster in 7 years.

Compare that with X86 since 2006. Less then 200% speed increase till 2013.

You are mistaken to think that ARM's improvement shows that it is competitive vs Intel or AMD.

The reason why ARM performance has increased so quickly is the same reason why CPU performance improved so quickly during the 90s and early 2000s: because they were able to take advantage of pipelining, superscalar, out of order, and speculative execution. ARM couldn't take advantage of those things until recent years because of power and size requirements of the chips. Intel and AMD already had these things implemented in their x86 chips, so it's been much harder to improve single threaded performance. ARM will soon face this same problem once it implements all the "low hanging fruit" chip features.

When it comes to competing in the high performance market, the advantage of the ARM architecture declines dramatically. The debate over what instruction set architecture is best should be left in the last decade. Instruction sets don't matter much anymore. The future is about who implements heterogeneous computing the best.
 
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swagi

macrumors 6502a
Sep 6, 2007
905
123
Have you actually read what is all part of what you call "XBox division"? One part of that division happens to be the Macintosh software unit. So every time someone buys Microsoft Office for the Mac, it adds profit to the so-called "XBox division".

Actually I know posting this is quite useless as people like you love to propagate their biased views despite the facts, but:

http://www.vg247.com/2013/04/18/microsoft-financials-xbox-division-posts-revenue-of-2-53-billion-up-56-yoy/

Right from the article: "During this time, 8.9 million Xbox 360 consoles were shipped during the first nine months of fiscal year 2013, compared with 11.9 million during the same period in FY 12."

So...now let's compare that to the 6.5 million Apple TVs and take a look at your "stated fact" that the Apple TV outsold the XBox. Really, this stuff is getting so tiring and is the main reason for me giving the Mac platform the stinking finger.

If WWDC this year is disappointing as the last iterations I will just build a Linux box. Mac OS X seriously is in need of some fresh blood. And iOS can kiss my shiny you know what...proudly boycotting this nonsense for years now (nevertheless have been an iPhone early adopter - so don't get me started on that debate - I have been through the "You don't need MMS"-thing as it was pretty annoying to use a web interface for MMS).
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
Microsoft sold 77 million Xbox in 7 1/2 years, that's about 10 million per year. Apple sold 6.5 million Apple TV in the last year. Xbox sales are shrinking, Apple TV sales are growing. But remember, Apple TV is just "a hobby". Consoles are suffering the same fate as PCs, they are going to be beaten by smartphones and tablets.

"Beaten" implies they're in competition. They're not. Completely separate device categories. The fact that the latter is cannibalizing some of the former's market is incidental. It's also growing their potential market too.

They can't magically do away with the hardcore audience that demands a PC or console experience. Touch interfaces are incapable of providing rapid, accurate controls and feedback necessary to the core gamer.

How do you think is that division making profits?

The xbox itself. The console is now sold at a profit, they get royalties from software sales, all accessories carry a nice profit and they have millions of paid live subscribers.

They just had a huge R&D budget for the new console and they're investing a billion in new games software. That's not the kind of money you spend on a non-profitable product category.
 

iSunrise

macrumors 6502
May 11, 2012
382
118
You are mistaken to think that ARM's improvement shows that it is competitive vs Intel or AMD.

The reason why ARM performance has increased so quickly is the same reason why CPU performance improved so quickly during the 90s and early 2000s: because they were able to take advantage of pipelining, superscalar, out of order, and speculative execution. ARM couldn't take advantage of those things until recent years because of power and size requirements of the chips. x86 already had these things implemented, so it's been much harder to improve single threaded performance. ARM will soon face this same problem once it implements all the "low hanging fruit" chip features.

When it comes to competing in the high performance market, the advantage of the ARM architecture declines dramatically. The debate over what instruction set architecture is best should be left in the last decade. Instruction sets don't matter much anymore. The future is about who implements heterogeneous computing the best.
Great post, man.
 

kemal

macrumors 68000
Dec 21, 2001
1,828
2,222
Nebraska
AMD => Qualcomm

Didn't AMD sell their mobile (ATI) graphics division to Qualcomm in 2009? Wouldn't that have included the 3D expertise for mobility?

I had a Snapdragon chipped top of the line phone that had much poorer graphics performance than a year older iPhone. The ATI core was poor spec'ed compared to the PowerVR.
 

tdtran1025

macrumors 6502
Dec 26, 2011
275
0
This is scavenging, quite acceptable practice as opposed to poaching. AMD's trash may be Apple's treasure. How more stupid can AMD be?
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
Didn't AMD sell their mobile (ATI) graphics division to Qualcomm in 2009? Wouldn't that have included the 3D expertise for mobility?

I had a Snapdragon chipped top of the line phone that had much poorer graphics performance than a year older iPhone. The ATI core was poor spec'ed compared to the PowerVR.

Yes, and they are now branded as the "Adreno" series. The ImgTec cores are really good at deferred rendering, something only recently seeing popularity in desktop scenarios.
 

Glassed Silver

macrumors 68020
Mar 10, 2007
2,096
2,567
Kassel, Germany
[...]
He's talking about Melbourne, FL silly. Its an hour away from Orlando.

You call him a silly?
That's interesting, you expect someone, who might not even be from the US to know Melbourne, FL, a city with less than 100,000 inhabitants...


Kinda surprised I have to say.

And before you say Authentec should have been a hint: It isn't to everyone.

Glassed Silver:mac
 

dugbug

macrumors 68000
Aug 23, 2008
1,867
1,932
Somewhere in Florida
You call him a silly?
That's interesting, you expect someone, who might not even be from the US to know Melbourne, FL, a city with less than 100,000 inhabitants...


Kinda surprised I have to say.

And before you say Authentec should have been a hint: It isn't to everyone.

Glassed Silver:mac

You're silly
 

yow.

macrumors member
Aug 26, 2012
52
0
the hardcore audience that demands a PC or console experience.

Gaming PCs are 10-20 times more powerful than an xbox360... yet, xboxes are selling well, and PCs aren't. This suggests that more power isn't necessary for huge sales. In previous console generations, people were still buying more powerful PCs. That's the big difference, this generation.

Touch interfaces are incapable of providing rapid, accurate controls and feedback necessary to the core gamer.

You're right, but you can add a controller. Hmmm... though I guess it's true that if not everyone on the platform has this add-in, the market is smaller and irregular. Apple could start bundling them - this might seem excessive, but if they can capture another $10 billion market, it's worth it.
 

toaster64

macrumors regular
May 14, 2013
164
0
Apple TV is turning into a game console.

This is what I hope for. It already has the nice interface (except the movies selection for iTunes), great integration, and good features. Apple could easily add an Apple TV app store and make a version with high-power hardware for heavier games.

----------

Microsoft sold 77 million Xbox in 7 1/2 years, that's about 10 million per year. Apple sold 6.5 million Apple TV in the last year. Xbox sales are shrinking, Apple TV sales are growing. But remember, Apple TV is just "a hobby". Consoles are suffering the same fate as PCs, they are going to be beaten by smartphones and tablets.

Not surprising that few people bought an XBOX 360 so far after its release date except to replace a broken one.
 

Anon Tobin

macrumors newbie
Apr 15, 2013
26
0
Gaming PCs are 10-20 times more powerful than an xbox360... yet, xboxes are selling well, and PCs aren't. This suggests that more power isn't necessary for huge sales. In previous console generations, people were still buying more powerful PCs. That's the big difference, this generation.

Nope.

Retail sales does not equal market share. The majority of PC gamers build their own rigs.
 
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