More Details on Nokia's Latest Complaints Against Apple Surface

[eastcoastsurfer]

Actually, they're not. Since they submitted their patents into a standards body to be used in promulgating standards, and since the standards body requires it, they must demand fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory rates. This is not "whatever Nokia want."

You're assuming all the patents in contention are standards. Nokia holds a lot of patents around cell phones. They could include GSM patents, interface patents, even touch screen patents themselves.

I know it's hard to believe, but cell phones and even touch screens existed before the iPhone was even a glimmer in Steve Job's eye.

 

[gibbz]

Which is, essentially, what Nokia was saying. Expose yourself to the best things other people do, learn what they did right, and copy the ideas (but not the expressions), incorporate them into what you do.

Apple has done no different. The key components of the Macintosh and iPod were both taken from previous (external) developers/developments. They learned what was valuable about GUIs, networks, pointing devices, etc., they copied the ideas, and incorporated them into what they do. The Macintosh wouldn't have existed without the ideas they copied from Xerox. And, even the iPod's UI is "just a miller column browser", which came from the Xanadu project (and was copied by NeXT, and then the iPod -- it even exists in Mac OS X, as the column mode in Finder; the only difference for the iPod is that it's limited to viewing 1 column at a time).

Name a major company that doesn't. Apple wouldn't be where they are today if they hadn't "copied with pride" from multiple Xerox projects.

I don't disagree with anything you said. What I referenced was the exact quote that was mentioned in the lawsuit by Nokia. It was taken out of context. Of course Apple has taken ideas from other companies. Everyone does it. I simply and accurately point out that the EXACT quote taken from Nokia was taken out of context and is not the same as the one referenced by Apple regarding Nokia.

It may be tiresome, but it is far from baseless. As you've just shown. And it's probably not half as tiresome as having to read the same old Apple fanboy saws over and over again while trying to find the one or two kernels of wisdom in these threads.

I personally have done nothing other than pointing out facts. I don't disagree that a lot of people here are fanboys and lack logic, but I certainly do not fit that category.

When you say that I think rules only apply to anyone but Apple, it is baseless and certainly not a kernel of wisdom given the scope of my posts in this thread.

All of that aside, I do think there has to be some merit to the Nokia claims. Apple even says that it basically disagrees with Nokia's fees. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[cmaier]

You're assuming all the patents in contention are standards. Nokia holds a lot of patents around cell phones. They could include GSM patents, interface patents, even touch screen patents themselves.

I know it's hard to believe, but cell phones and even touch screens existed before the iPhone was even a glimmer in Steve Job's eye.

No, I read the complaint. All of the patents in the lawsuit are GSM-related. ITC case is another matter, but we have no idea if apple infringes. At least there's a reasonable inference they are infringing patents that are supposedly required to practice GSM.

 

[eastcoastsurfer]

This myth keeps popping up. What multi-touch patents? The UI patents that could affect anyone else are limited ones on scrolling and rubber banding, which could be gotten around via alternative methods.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10150436-37.html

These seem pretty important and hard to get around when it comes to multi-touch.

The patent is extremely long, and covers many of the methods used by the iPhone to display data, such as pinch-to-zoom Web browsing and swipe-to-scroll.

And a great quote from Tim Cook,

will not stand for having our (intellectual property) ripped off, and we'll use whatever weapons that we have at our disposal.

Sounds like Nokia is just doing the same thing or is it only okay when Apple uses 'whatever weapons' they have at their disposal to protect their intellectual property?

 

[cmaier]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10150436-37.html

These seem pretty important and hard to get around when it comes to multi-touch.



And a great quote from Tim Cook,



Sounds like Nokia is just doing the same thing or is it only okay when Apple uses 'whatever weapons' they have at their disposal to protect their intellectual property?

All - keep in mind Apple has many dozen patent applications in examination. It typically takes 2'ish years for such patents to issue. They don't even get published (usually) until 18 months after filing. I'm sure Apple will get more patents on this technology.

 

[kdarling]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10150436-37.html

These seem pretty important and hard to get around when it comes to multi-touch.

Yeah, I figured that'd be the one. It's not your fault that you only saw the first breathless headlines, and missed all the sheepish reporters backpedaling afterwards.

The idea that it was some global multitouch patent was debunked immediately by myself and others here, and then a couple of days later by mainstream websites.

It's just a simply patent on figuring out if you're trying to scroll vertically or horizontally or all over. (You know ... like how in Safari that you can flick to scroll up or right, or diagonally.) That's all.

The actual patent claims are just a few paragraphs. Then, just for show it's followed by dozens of pages of pretty iPhone diagrams, which is what confused those who can't read patents.

Again, I don't know of any important Apple patents on touch UIs. People have been coding for touch and multitouch for decades, and Apple hasn't broken any truly new ground that we've seen so far.

 

[cmaier]

Yeah, I figured that'd be the one. It's not your fault that you only saw the first breathless headlines, and missed all the sheepish reporters backpedaling afterwards.

The idea that it was some global multitouch patent was debunked immediately by myself and others here, and then a couple of days later by mainstream websites.

It's just a simply patent on figuring out if you're trying to scroll vertically or horizontally or all over. (You know ... like how in Safari that you can flick to scroll up or right, or diagonally.) That's all.

The actual patent claims are just a few paragraphs. Then, just for show it's followed by hundreds of pages of pretty iPhone diagrams.

Again, I don't know of any important Apple patents on touch UIs. People have been coding for touch and multitouch for decades, and Apple hasn't broken any new ground so far.

Keep in mind that the reason that the patent specification is so big is that there are continuation and divisional applications that will claim many more of the things described in the spec, and that these applications are still being prosecuted.

 

[kdarling]

Keep in mind that the reason that the patent specification is so big is that there are continuation and divisional applications that will claim many more of the things described in the spec, and that these applications are still being prosecuted.

Yes sir, I'm aware that they're doing continuations, but most of it smacks of becoming very iPhone specific and thus difficult to prosecute... especially with so much prior art around, just waiting to be brought up.

So a lot of it seems more for show than go, if you know what I mean.

In any case, they don't have anything published right now that would stop Nokia. Or anyone else. As you say, the future could bring something.

Regards.

 

[Shin3r]

Which is, essentially, what Nokia was saying. Expose yourself to the best things other people do, learn what they did right, and copy the ideas (but not the expressions), incorporate them into what you do.

Apple has done no different. The key components of the Macintosh and iPod were both taken from previous (external) developers/developments. They learned what was valuable about GUIs, networks, pointing devices, etc., they copied the ideas, and incorporated them into what they do. The Macintosh wouldn't have existed without the ideas they copied from Xerox. And, even the iPod's UI is "just a miller column browser", which came from the Xanadu project (and was copied by NeXT, and then the iPod -- it even exists in Mac OS X, as the column mode in Finder; the only difference for the iPod is that it's limited to viewing 1 column at a time).



Name a major company that doesn't. Apple wouldn't be where they are today if they hadn't "copied with pride" from multiple Xerox projects.



It may be tiresome, but it is far from baseless. As you've just shown. And it's probably not half as tiresome as having to read the same old Apple fanboy saws over and over again while trying to find the one or two kernels of wisdom in these threads.

Just want to say, your first large post about the past between these two companies is entirely spot on. They had disagreements and now here they are. No one is wrong or right yet. This is normal scuffling between companies when they disagree. NOW

That being said, in hopes that you just don't discount what I say as being fanboyish, I would say that to "copy with pride" is way different than "stealing great ideas". Apple has a way of taking ideas and making it somehow completely their own and unique. Are there parts that are all similar? Sure. But I think Apple has some great employees that take pride in what they do and come up with some brilliant pieces of work. They would have to to work for the Steve. He has got to be the devil to work for. There are many companies that I am sure are like this, unfortunately in my opinion they are in the minority. So many companies have focused purely on profit and have no pride in what they do. Sure Apple likes profit, but I believe it's not all they have. Now, I am not arguing the validity of who said what statement, just that they are not the same.

Does all this make me a fanboy? To a degree I suppose, but I am not incapable of making rational arguments. There are those who can't though, on both sides of the matter. Sometimes calling people fanboy though is childish in and of itself. It's a way of discrediting people before you even have an argument. Just make your argument, and if you don't like fanboys then you have simply come to the wrong site.

 

[cmaier]

Yes sir, I'm aware that they're doing continuations, but most of it smacks of becoming very iPhone specific and thus difficult to prosecute... especially with so much prior art around, just waiting to be brought up.

There's a lot of stuff in there. I won't comment on whether valid claims are possible - as a patent attorney who is always on the defense side, I like to think i can usually find a reason to invalidate a patent claim

- moving icons from a dock using finger gestures
- the way iphone flashes and then hides scrollbars when first showing a view so you know you can scroll
- changing key colors when tapping them. enlarging keys when tapping them.
- the word suggestion boxes
- delay before showing word suggestion box
- the way alternate keyboards work (punctuation, etc.)
- the way text from an input box slides up into a threaded chat conversation
- moving the insertion marker based on finger movement
- the way the magnifying glass works when selecting text (they also have entire other applications on insertion/selection, etc)
- accelerated scrolling

etc. (that was stuff from about the first third of the specification).

 

[jodyfanning]

Nokia were demanding unfair royalties AND cross licensing of Apple patents. Apple told Nokia to bugger off. Since the iPhone launched Nokia has been in a downward spiral and their profits have dropped 50%.

Nokia cannot afford the R & D to get a product out there with a strong OS and hardware to compete in the market so they thought, sod it, Apple make phones and have all these cool multi touch patents and OS interface patents. If we sue them then we can get cash and design patents woooot!!

You have no clue at all do you.

Nokia is not going anywhere. Their market share in smartphones has RISEN for the past 6 months.

Nokia spends more on R&D than Apple spends on everything (Apples R&D budget is the lowest in the industry).

Apple DOES NOT have multitouch patents. Repeated again for the extremely stupid. Apple DOES NOT have multitouch patents. Read about multitouch in Wikipedia if you think otherwise.

 

[cmaier]

You have no clue at all do you.

Nokia is not going anywhere. Their market share in smartphones has RISEN for the past 6 months.

Nokia spends more on R&D than Apple spends on everything (Apples R&D budget is the lowest in the industry).

Apple DOES NOT have multitouch patents. Repeated again for the extremely stupid. Apple DOES NOT have multitouch patents. Read about multitouch in Wikipedia if you think otherwise.

See my previous post. They have one issued patent that covers certain aspects of multitouch (rubberbanding and scrolling aspects) and many applications currently being examined which cover various other aspects.

Of course they don't have patents on the fundamental aspect of multiple fingers on the screen. But they do have one patent (and will likely soon have others) on using multitouch in a GUI or in using it to enable specific phone functions.

 

[RAGING DEMON]

i love apple products but i dont like their dictatorship approach! for whats its worth, apple need to pay up!

all those people saying apple should just buy nokia, well im sorry to say this but even with all the money in the world, the finnish goverment or the eu can stop apple from doing so!

 

[pdjudd]

i love apple products but i dont like their dictatorship approach! for whats its worth, apple need to pay up!

all those people saying apple should just buy nokia, well im sorry to say this but even with all the money in the world, the finnish goverment or the eu can stop apple from doing so!

1) If you don't like Apple's control over their products - do not buy them. Don't use that as the basis for saying that they should "pay up". THat's for a court to decide.

2) Nobody is seriously proposing that Apple buy Nokia - no way that can happen Apple's market cap is not anywhere near what Nokia's is.

 

[RAGING DEMON]

1) If you don't like Apple's control over their products - do not buy them. Don't use that as the basis for saying that they should "pay up". THat's for a court to decide.

Lame, so youre telling me that everytime youve purchased a product wether it being apple , sony, microsoft or whatever, your completely happy with the way their company is run portrayed??

take microsoft for example, im sure millions of people purchased their software in the knowledge that they are a company that are evil!

 

[kdarling]

See my previous post. They have one issued patent that covers certain aspects of multitouch (rubberbanding and scrolling aspects) and many applications currently being examined which cover various other aspects.

The patent's not about multi-touch itself, though.

Using multiple fingers is just an optional input method that can be used for the actions that the patent is about.

The patent says the initiation of those actions can be done by using _one_ or more fingers.

"A computer-implemented method for use in conjunction with a computing device with a touch screen display comprises: detecting one or more finger contacts with the touch screen display, applying one or more heuristics to the one or more finger contacts to determine a command for the device, and processing the command. "

Of course they don't have patents on the fundamental aspect of multiple fingers on the screen. But they do have one patent (and will likely soon have others) on using multitouch in a GUI or in using it to enable specific phone functions.

Right-o.

A humorous thought springs to mind though: since many people use their noses as an emergency method of touch when wearing gloves, do these finger-based patents cover that? Perhaps Apple and others need to start using the word "appendage" instead.

 

[cmaier]

Kdarling-

apple's market cap is about 4.5 times that of Nokia.

Also, the issued patent DOES require multitouch. You have to go by the claims, not the abstract or a few words in the spec. Also, all the items I listed as being the subject of other applications require multitouch.

Assuming arguendo Apple successfully turns all these applications into issued patents, it would be very difficult to do a multitouch device that didn't suck.

 

[kdarling]

apple's market cap is about 4.5 times that of Nokia.

Was that meant for someone else?

Also, the issued patent DOES require multitouch. You have to go by the claims, not the abstract or a few words in the spec. Also, all the items I listed as being the subject of other applications require multitouch.

You're right, some of the recently added claims require multitouch to work, such as the one that covers Safari's two-finger scrolling within a frame. The original claims about scrolling directions did not.

 

[lllll]

NOKIA is a leecher. Just give it up. Stop wasting Nokia's stockholder's money on ridiculous lawsuit.

 

[cmaier]

Was that meant for someone else?

Sorry, yes. Pdjudd.

 

[ChazUK]

NOKIA is a leecher. Just give it up. Stop wasting Nokia's stockholder's money on ridiculous lawsuit.

More like Nokia are the victims of a leech. A leech that has taken and not paid for their technology.

 

[pdjudd]

Lame, so youre telling me that everytime youve purchased a product wether it being apple , sony, microsoft or whatever, your completely happy with the way their company is run portrayed??

No, but if it bothers you enough than don't do it. Apple does not force you to buy anything they sell - it is a choice. Apple doesn't hold a gun to your head and force you to do anything. Microsoft is not a choice since they are a monopoly.

Sorry, yes. Pdjudd.

Perhaps I used the wrong term - they don't have the funds to buy out Nokia - Apple only has about 25 billion in the bank. Last I checked their brand is worth more than Apple has.

It won't happen.

 

[pdjudd]

delete

 

[cmaier]

Perhaps I used the wrong term - they don't have the funds to buy out Nokia - Apple only has about 25 billion in the bank. Last I checked their brand is worth more than Apple has.

It won't happen.

It won't happen, but not because Apple doesn't have the cash. Nokia's market cap is around $40B. That means Apple could buy 50% of the stock for around $20B. (Theoretically. In reality, they'd run the price up, blah blah). They need far less than 50% to have de facto control of the company, and, as you point out, they have at least $28 B in cash (probably over $30B by now). And that's assuming Apple paid cash. Since Apple has such a huge capitalization, it could pay half cash, half stock, for example.

 

[scroto]

It won't happen, but not because Apple doesn't have the cash. Nokia's market cap is around $40B. That means Apple could buy 50% of the stock for around $20B. (Theoretically. In reality, they'd run the price up, blah blah). They need far less than 50% to have de facto control of the company, and, as you point out, they have at least $28 B in cash (probably over $30B by now). And that's assuming Apple paid cash. Since Apple has such a huge capitalization, it could pay half cash, half stock, for example.

Apple would never attempt a takeover of Nokia, That would be a terrible decision. Their shareholders would go ballistic. I'm talking about real shareholders not some fanboys with a couple thousand in stock that surf MR and blindly worship everything Apple does.