Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
The real reason MS agree to this...

The real reason MS agreed to this... is this, I think. The studios took a look at zune, realized it was not going to sell. They further realized if zune does not sell, zune marketplace will sell no stuff. if zune marketplace sells no stuff, why should we (record company) bother to put our stuff on Zune marketplace. Waste of time! Forget it MS, we don't wanna play. (MS panics...) Oh, wait.... MS is offering us $10 to basically do nothing? SOLD!
 
Beatles Apple

I don't know if Apple is technically allowed to do this; check out their legal squabbles with the Beatles' Apple Corps over the past 20 years (Apple computer is distinctly computer sphere; Apple Corp is allowed music liscence, or some other BS) :rolleyes:

I know alot of you here were against when Apple (Beatles) sued Apple Computer...I for one felt that the Beatles Apple was correct in that one.. Anyway Apple Computer would be smart about now to give the Beatles Apple a huge chunk maybe 100 milion dollars and get the Beatles remastered catalogue on iTunes as fast as they can. Maybe online exclusive for six months or a year. It would help both. Spurr sales of the Beatles remasterd catalogue (which should come soon-maybe) and you know that Microsoft would write any check they want to the Beatles. And they would do it just to get interest in the Zune.

Eben iof you don't give a crap about the BEatles, they have major BRAND recognition and would be a very smart business move.

But no hardward company should give a cut to the labels. Next TV manufacturers would be giving cuts to studios. Really stupid.
 
To be honest, I have had a lot of folks come up to me at CompUSA and ask when the Zune will be out. I think MS has a winner on their hands, the iPod is getting stale and people are looking for a change. Apple just hasn't been making any significant upgrades to it for a while. All I can say is that I hope Apple's long rumored True Video iPod is around the corner and can be a major milestone. I may get a Zune if it does decent. I can always put Vista on my MBP and use both my iPod and Zune with my external HD holding my music. I just hope this kicks Apple in the butt and makes them quit messing around. I am getting sick of the weak iPod updates. May the fight begin!

Yes but you know come January at MACworld (or soon therafter) the next iPod will kick butt. This ZUNE is already so last year
 
Didn't have time to read through EVERY post, but has anyone mentioned that we've been paying a cut to the record labels for years on every CD burner?

Yes but that is because you use it to copy CDs. Blank cassettes also had a "tax."

But the Zune only stores and plays back. Like my CD player, turntable, VHS, Betamax, Quadrophonic stereo, 8 :p track player, reel to reel, and cave walls.
 
i too am tired

Let's face it, the iPod Photo and 5.5 G iPod were not stellar upgrades. And as far as a Mac Mini with a raid... were is the market for that? Why not just plug in an external FW drive if you need to expand? They might as well make a Mac (Sub) Pro that is $1499 with a Conroe and a four tray HD system with a similar form factor.

I am tired of complainers of the iPod upgrade thing. Crap I just want to hear music!. I have stereos that I have had for many many years. The last iPod upgrade was amazing. More storage, cheaper prices. so you can't have a song you purschased go wireless up your ass? so friggen what! The new iPod upgrade you seem to want will probably come out in the next few months-you know it is coming. So many expect major changes too quickly. That's absurb. Apple is pretty quick. Look at these new Macbooks.. Less than six months after the first new ones.. Amazing!

Remember the quote: "it's the music stupid."
 
You're absolutely right, Im sorry I failed to clarify again. Believe me, I know independents can produce music just as well as the big-timers (that's how I started out). I am simply referring to the massive ammount of my-space demo CDs that I've heard that DO sound like, well, not so hot. And sometimes it's not even because of production quality, but people can be bothered to use even decent sounding drum samples, or more realistic virtual instruments. There's a lot of casio keyboard demo-type stuff, and I'm wondering if it's becoming a new style...
Ah.

One of the downsides of the cheap publishing is that tons of junk ends up there.

These are the same people who, in previous years, would've recorded the same material to cassettes and given them out to family and friends. The fact that web pages are now the distribution medium doesn't change much, IMO.
 
I am tired of complainers of the iPod upgrade thing. Crap I just want to hear music!. I have stereos that I have had for many many years. The last iPod upgrade was amazing. More storage, cheaper prices. so you can't have a song you purschased go wireless up your ass? so friggen what! The new iPod upgrade you seem to want will probably come out in the next few months-you know it is coming. So many expect major changes too quickly. That's absurb. Apple is pretty quick. Look at these new Macbooks.. Less than six months after the first new ones.. Amazing!

Remember the quote: "it's the music stupid."

yeah, i agree. I was holding my girlfriends old 2g 20gig ipod in my hand the other day thinking, wow this thing is amazing.

as far as production quality goes, thats such an opinion based thing. Some of my favorite cds are some early independent bands stuff that doesn't technically sound that great, but the music was there and it shows through the cheaper production. Yes there are idiots out there producing crap on their computers, its more cause they don't know anything about music, not production. Take "How I made my millions." by thom yorke for example. recorded with a mini disc in is house. sounds like balls but its still a great song. or early albums by death cab, their best stuff and it wasn't recorded that well. Then you get these pop songs that are comprised of cheap kick snare and hi-hat samples with some bass and vocals, slap together some production on it and its all the sudden on the charts.

I agree with the typical saying "you can't polish a turd" but I would like to add my own saying, the reverse of that one:

you can't dull a diamond

if its a good song its a good song, better production might make it better, but no matter what it will always be a good song.
 
Cry me a river....

Seriously folks, we need to keep the artists in mind. I feel like this is all a long marathon for Jerry's Kids!

I've seen enough of MTV's Cribs to know that the artists be gettin' paid. I mean really, does Ja Rule need anymore money from me? You think Paul Wall needs another dime from Zume sales to fill his mouth will diamonds?

These artists get paid way TOO much!

Don't come to me and say, but there are artists that get signed on and don't get much money at all. Guess who's fault is that?? NOT MINE! I don't sign any contracts unless I feel I'm getting what I deserve.

The music industry makes plenty of profit...check out a clip from a 2004 article regarding BMI "BMI reported revenues of $673 million for the 2004 fiscal year, an increase of nearly $43 million, 6.8% over the prior year. The performing rights organization generated royalties of more than $573 million for its songwriters, composers and music publishers. Royalties increased by $40 million or 7.5% from the previous year. BMI President and CEO Frances W. Preston said both the revenues and royalty distributions were the largest in the company's history."

That's 2004....but that can't be!!!?!! there's rampant piracy and the consumer doesn't want to pay for legal downloads????!!

Music industry can suck ballz for all I care. Keep sticking your hands in the cookie jar and watch what happens. We will all go back to rippin' songs off a $44 dollar boombox with cassette tapes.
 
Seriously folks, we need to keep the artists in mind. I feel like this is all a long marathon for Jerry's Kids!

I've seen enough of MTV's Cribs to know that the artists be gettin' paid. I mean really, does Ja Rule need anymore money from me? You think Paul Wall needs another dime from Zume sales to fill his mouth will diamonds?

These artists get paid way TOO much!

Don't come to me and say, but there are artists that get signed on and don't get much money at all. Guess who's fault is that?? NOT MINE! I don't sign any contracts unless I feel I'm getting what I deserve.

The music industry makes plenty of profit

The music industry has created this monster and due to the phenomenal profits involved are unwilling to change and their only way forward is to destroy anyone who attempts to change the business model.

It's time to stop supporting big music. It's mostly a lot of crap. There's tons of good if not great groups out there who don't get the exposure they deserve. The payola scams of 40 years ago are nothing compared to what the industry does now.
 
I am tired of complainers of the iPod upgrade thing. Crap I just want to hear music!. I have stereos that I have had for many many years. The last iPod upgrade was amazing. More storage, cheaper prices. so you can't have a song you purschased go wireless up your ass? so friggen what! The new iPod upgrade you seem to want will probably come out in the next few months-you know it is coming. So many expect major changes too quickly. That's absurb. Apple is pretty quick. Look at these new Macbooks.. Less than six months after the first new ones.. Amazing!

Remember the quote: "it's the music stupid."

I totally agree with your post, and find the one you responded too, hysterical. I notice that 'corywoolf' is a frequent poster here, so I wonder if this is not just some dry humor on his part? It reads like a partial compilation of stuff the the newbie trolls write.
 
You listen to a CD over and over again and pay $15 for it. You read a book once and pay at least that. But no one is up in arms over book pricing. And what about DVDs? You pay anywhere between $10 and $20 for a DVD and maybe watch it three times.
Yeah, but a movie costs an order of magnitude higher than a CD to make, even accounting for massive marketing costs. I would never pay $19.99 for a movie that cost someone $50,000. Likewise, I'd never pay $19.99 for a CD, period. I've watched the movies I own 5, 6, 7+ times each. I understand that the real cost of a popular CD might be in the millions; then again, a popular CD will also sell in the millions. But still, a movie is twice as long as an album, and I think $15 for a movie I'll watch 4 times a year is worth as much as an album I'll probably listen to 8 times in that year.

No one listens to CDs thousands of times. It would take 3 years for someone listening to an album once a day to hit just 1000 iterations. Further, the whole point of the high price of DVDs and CDs is that you can listen to them any number of times you want--if you want to reduce the calculations to a "price per experience" then you're basically encouraging a toll system and a rental strategy.

Do some simple math. Let's say that it costs $1 to manufacture each CD and you manufacture 2,000 dics. You then spend $10,000 on marketing. You've now spent $12,000 on the release - or $6 per disc. You sell to a distributor for $8. They sell to a store for $10. The store sells for $14.99. At $8 per disc, you need to sell 1,500 copies of the album before you even make a penny. And in the indie world, 1,500 copies is quite an accomplishment.
That's all well and good, but there are lots of holes in these various stages. More to the point, why the $7 markup from production to retailing? They don't advertise for you, and inventory management is on the order of a few cents per CD. Obviously you can't control the end price, but if you are a small label selling products, you can set an MSRP on your site so that it shows how much you're being gouged by the retailer.

In the real world, you see that stores have to pay more like $13 from the distributor and then sell them for $15--in this example, that $5 markup charged by the distributor is essentially free profit (you've already paid for production and advertising and the retailer pays for shipping and capital overhead so what exactly is the distributor good for?). For example, Tower Records is going out of business--it's not the stores, it's the labels getting fat while artists, retailers, and consumers suffer.
 
matticus008-

how much a piece of art costs to make doesn't have anything to do with its worth. So what if a movie was made with 50 grand, if its a good movie its a good movie.

also, to the other quote in your post... for an independant artist to spend 10 grand for marketing is kinda ridiculous. Most bands that can sell 1500 cds do so by spending $10 at kinkos to hand out flyers for their shows where they sell their 1500 cds.
 
matticus008-

how much a piece of art costs to make doesn't have anything to do with its worth.
Actually, the cost of art is exactly its worth, financially speaking. There is undeniably an aesthetic quality as to what a customer thinks the art itself has in terms of added value worthy of a higher price tag (but that's irrelevant). In terms of cost recovery, a $50,000 studio movie and a $50 million studio movie, per copy, are not worth the same thing assuming the number of copies sold is similar in each case. If they're going to sell 1000 copies of two different products and one cost 10 times more to make than the other, they had better not be sold at the same price.

I wasn't talking about the aesthetics of the art at all--only the economics. Perhaps I should have made that more clear.
 
cheap attempt

Obviously MS's move is nothing more than an attempt to bully their way into an already saturated market with their less than impressive player.

In short, they bully hold a carrot in fron to the music labels for them to begin to believe that they "own" a part of the players that music is played on. Then, when more and more begin to belive this, a critial mass of individuals/companies will push to have the "new model" adopted. Which may force the hand of other device makers like Apple, Sony, Toshiba, etc.

The problem with this "new idea" is that the music industry does not have a right to sales dollars from devices sold no more than than makers of pizza boxes have a right to have a cut of the sales of pizza. It is un-American and contrary to the principles of a free market.

The plan will back fire as it will provoke mass retaliation from consumers of music, who purchase their music via several of the vendors already in place, to engage in increased piracy.

If the music industry has not learned from their past mistakes to curtail their greed, they too will pay the ultimate price of lost revenue for a legitimate model that has been proven by Apple's iTunes to generate revenue not only for the music labels as a whole, but for the artists who reap little in return for their labor and products.

I for one do not support such a "tax" on ipods or any other music device. If there is a tax imposed and if the music industry begins to adopt such a practice, I will assure you that I will not buy another CD again. If I am going to be PUNISHED for being a law abiding music consumer because of he greed-laced business model proposed by Microsoft, music labels beware that your profits will be held hostage becaus I will boycott your product until such a model is abandoned.

Gallo
 
cheap attempt

Obviously MS's move is nothing more than an attempt to bully their way into an already saturated market with their less than impressive player.

In short, they are attempting to bully their way into our homes by holding a carrot in front to the music labels and pumping the propaganda of greed into their minds.

The problem with this "new idea" is that the music industry does not have a right to sales dollars from devices sold no more than than makers of pizza boxes have a right to have a cut of the sales of pizza. It is un-American and contrary to the principles of a free market, not to mention ethically wrong.

The plan will back fire as it will provoke mass retaliation from consumers of music, who purchase their music via several of the vendors already in place, to engage in increased piracy.

If the music industry has not learned from their past mistakes to curtail their greed, they too will pay the ultimate price of lost revenue for a legitimate model that has been proven by Apple's iTunes to generate revenue not only for the music labels as a whole, but for the artists who reap little in return for their labor and products.

I for one do not support such a "tax" on ipods or any other music device. If there is a tax imposed and if the music industry begins to adopt such a practice, I will assure you that I will not buy another CD again. If I am going to be PUNISHED for being a law abiding music consumer because of he greed-laced business model proposed by Microsoft, music labels beware that your profits will be held hostage becaus I will boycott your product until such a model is abandoned.

Gallo
 
For what it's worth, and as someone in the music industry, let me just try to clarify one thing: From the outside, big labels must seem like corrupt businesses considering the finances involved in making and selling a record. I mean, $50 million to produce and sell a CD? Well the truth is that nearly 90% of all albums produced do not generate enough sales to cover their cost of recording (paying the studio, the session musicians, copyright fees, etc); therefore, it is up to the remaining 10%(ish) to make up for the lost revenue. It is those top few grossing CDs that are relied on to allow the creation of everything else (most likely the music YOU listen to).

Because of piracy, even those top grossing CDs are no longer producing enough revenue to support the vast majority of “small” artists, and so the record labels are forced to cut off the bottom rungs one by one. This, in turn, has caused those lesser known artists to turn to independent and P2P methods of sale, which (in turn) draws even more revenue from the companies.

I recently had the pleasure of talking with Steve Barnett, chairman and CEO of Columbia Records, who acknowledges this very serious problem and desperately seeks change from all parties involved. He explained that back when he was AC/DC’s manager, bands weren’t expected to have a hit record until maybe their 3rd or 4th album. A&R reps would look for bands based on their potential to grow, not their immediate potential to earn profit. However, because record labels can no longer afford to take risks due to low record sales, only those artists who they can guarantee to have a hit record are picked up, and all those potential talents are swept aside. In today’s market, as he explains, little bands like the Beatles, Led Zeppelin and the Rolling Stones never would have made it because no one would have taken a chance on them.

Think of all the wonderful artists we’ll never hear about because no one can afford to take the risk today…

I think what you indicates is the up-side-down economics of the music industry. The typical company in a downward revenue spiral looks first to cut expenses and looks to market a product consumers will buy. Honestly, how cheaply can a record company cut a CD? For example the Beatles, wasn't their first album cut in a day? They went into studio ready to record, not to rehearse. And before Capitol Records took them, they were turned down by at least Decca. Point being all business is a risk, if insulate too much from risk your product gets stale.
 
Silly

The zune is a piece of crap.
Its a 30 gb drive, but most people dont have 30 gb of music. So there will be lots of empty space.
Great - except that you cant use the zune as a hard disk.....
Wireless songs? What the HELL for?
People dont transfer songs that disappear in three plays.
Its a social thing? WTF? M$ are truly nuts.

If you think this zune thing is anything to even comment on, just picture ballmer in that video where he is sweating and screaming like a demented monkey.

Still think the zune is something worth looking at?

Hmmm... a really cool, tiny 8gb black nano or a fugly sh*t brown 'zune'?

As for Universal getting cash from M$h*t, that almost certainly is being closely looked at by lawyers, including Apples lawyers, because it looks like anti-trust/monopolistic behaviour to me.
Or just a bribe? Dont matter, it will be all history in about 6 months.

'zune' - amazing that these microsofty idiots ever made any money - if only IBM had crushed them like bugs a long time ago.....

And the name.....zune - zune - zoon - keep saying it and it gets quite bizarre. zunezunezunezuneuzneuznuenzuenzue

Watch out for zune trolls - they are amusing but annoying too - M$ is paying a bunch of zune zombies to post everywhere - like this 'corywolf' person - serious troll behaviour.
 
That's the point! The "GOOD" music doesn't appeal to the majority of CD-buyers (physical music consumers). They did try, and failed to get enough interest in people who still know how to play real instruments and sing. Those who buy the most CDs only want to hear Fergie "talk-sing" to regurgitated samples, so that's what the labels are forced to produce. Talk to MTV, VH1 and all of the music advertising companies if you want to change the influence of popular-genre; not the labels.

I think there's more push-pull here than you think, consumers want a new sound and that new sound is then hyped to the max, overplayed, and burned-out. Then we move to the next thing.
'Good' music is left in the dark, unnoticed by all but the most ardent fans. The music industry needs to stop looking for the blockbuster and move back towards faciliating new artists.
The 'Long Tail' idea proves this works.
 
I agree entirely that taking a cut for hardware is absolutely unreasonable. My original post was just an effort to bring light to how deep the issue of piracy really goes.

Also, my offer from before still stands. If you are willing to draft up a formal proposal with a solution to the problem at hand, I will be more then happy to send it on to the powers that be.

First, I'm convinced that the labels are doomed and the economics of selling 'bits' of data that software turns into sound is totally different from the vinyl albums of yesteryear. I'm also convinced that the labels may have missed the boat with the early days of Napster, when an album was still worth something, and few people thought of downloading Gigabytes of music through their Broadband connection.

Maybe you should start a thread on this issue, I'm actually interested in what people think would work.

What do you think about the future of the music industry considering your insider viewpoint?
 
If they lost money on the fist xbox they wouldn't have made the second one.

Wrong... They STILL haven't made money on either the xbox or xbox 360 yet. Bill Gates has said that the original box was just to get them in the market and set them up for 360. An ok idea i guess, but an expensive choice. They are willing loose money on the systems and hope to make it up through rentals, game purchases, accessories, and other downloads.

They are doing the same marketing with Zune. Apple reduced their prices to a point the Microsoft was barely making money on the units as it is, i wonder what they will be getting now that part of the price is going to UMG...
 
I think what you indicates is the up-side-down economics of the music industry. The typical company in a downward revenue spiral looks first to cut expenses and looks to market a product consumers will buy. Honestly, how cheaply can a record company cut a CD? For example the Beatles, wasn't their first album cut in a day? They went into studio ready to record, not to rehearse. And before Capitol Records took them, they were turned down by at least Decca. Point being all business is a risk, if insulate too much from risk your product gets stale.

I think the cost of the production of a CD is the least of worries these days. It’s the marketing and promotion and illegal payments to radio stations and such that cost a fortune. It is true that the best engineers and producers make quite a bit more per hour then the best neurosurgeons because their expertise is in such demand, but that costs is nothing in comparison to getting the word out. Yes, the Beatles did cut their first album in a day (after virtually every label turned them away), but we have slightly different production standards today. Plus it’s quite rare to find a band who is actually well rehearsed and ready to lay down “live” tracks in the studio.

First, I'm convinced that the labels are doomed and the economics of selling 'bits' of data that software turns into sound is totally different from the vinyl albums of yesteryear. I'm also convinced that the labels may have missed the boat with the early days of Napster, when an album was still worth something, and few people thought of downloading Gigabytes of music through their Broadband connection.

Maybe you should start a thread on this issue, I'm actually interested in what people think would work.

What do you think about the future of the music industry considering your insider viewpoint?

I agree – buying a 0.99 download is not at all the same to going into a music store and shuffling through vinyls and reading the contents of the album and seeing the cover art, etc. The way people acquire music is changing (and I think for the worse, although I know lots of people disagree) and to tell you the truth, I have no idea what it will be like in 5 years. There will always be artists looking to make music, but the question then becomes how will they get their music out and will being a “musician” or “entertainer” still be a career title, or just something people do on the side for a year or two? Also, new software is taking away people’s apparent need for talent by providing pre-recorded samples and the ability to record or pitch-alter and, well, change virtually every aspect of a song transparently. What’s the result of this? You may hear an artists put out a great CD, but go see them live and OOPS guess what? They suck in real life. Ashley Simpson anyone?

Do you know how to put together a poll on here? I would also love to see what people think too.
 
I agree – buying a 0.99 download is not at all the same to going into a music store and shuffling through vinyls and reading the contents of the album and seeing the cover art, etc. The way people acquire music is changing (and I think for the worse, although I know lots of people disagree) and to tell you the truth, I have no idea what it will be like in 5 years.

I would be one of the ones that disagrees. I for a time didn't buy much music, (didn't really pirate, just really didn't buy music) now that i'm browsing iTunes all the time, I purchase most of my stuff. (except for some unreleased/mix tape items) Another great part is that some of the stuff is thing i would never consider buying if i was walking through borders or virgin records, so I would think that this is a better buying solution now then common stores. You can still see the artwork and solves the problem of not having to buy the "bad tracks" on a CD.

I only wish the samples were longer
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.