More Panther 7B21 Notes

[whooleytoo]

I know I'm compulsively pedantic... but Aqua doesn't mean "stripey windows", Aqua is the entire OSX UI. So, in fact, the brushed metal windows are Aqua too.

There, I got that off my chest, I feel better now..


Mike.

 

[vrapan]

finsihed downloading last night (UK)

Downloaded from ADC in fairly decent speeds - took around 10hours or so for the three CDs. Stupidly enough tried to install in on top of Panther DP and of course it stuck on looking for my accounts and it wouldn't go to the login screen. Do your self a favour and make sure you either install in on top of 10.2.6 (and even that I am not so sure about) or even better on a clear HD. Apart from that it seems much much better than the DP. A few visible improvements but responsiveness speed and stability have been improved big time. I am planning on using it full time on my main system. Good luck to everyone trying to download it. You will be rewarded handsomely though. Jag made OS X usable Panther will make it a first rate OS.

 

[encro]

Mac OS X 10.3 7B21 Tidbits

Posted on railheaddesign.com:

I say this all the time it seems, but you just *have* to love Apple! The latest build of OS X 10.3 is totally amazing — and it’s almost like a completely different OS that than the one seen at the WWDC. I’m still in the process of taking screen shots, etc., but here’s a run-down of a couple of the new items I’ve stumbled across:

* The Finder preferences are totally rebuilt. They now support a toolbar to access 4 different panes.

* When you double-click an icon to launch a program, the icon zooms open (larger) and fades. The effect is like the icon is flying toward you, and it’s pretty cool. =)

* The Finder prefs now let you better customize what you see in the Places area of the new Finder windows (disks, folders, network drives, etc.).

* The speed of this new build is dramatically faster than the WWDC build on my DP 1.25GHz G4. Interface elements are drawn much faster, etc.

* The System Preferences have a new look: the different heading areas are highlighted, giving a striped look. I hate it, personally.

Of course there are more new goodies, but I ant to save them for the next visual tour. As I said, I’m still in the process of taking screen shots and movies, so stay tuned for another bandwidth-blowing visual tour of OS X 10.3 7B21!

 

[Raiden]

My god. Panther will be so powerful and awesome, even the PC nuts wont be able to deny it! I cant wait to hear the cnet reviews of panther "the best OS ever".

I thought that the WWDC panther was awesome, but now you guys are reporting all these NEW features. I cant wait!

 

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Raiden
My god. Panther will be so powerful and awesome, even the PC nuts wont be able to deny it!

Right, I can't live without the "cool effect" of icons seeming to fly out at me.


Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"


"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

 

[encro]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Right, I can't live without the "cool effect" of icons seeming to fly out at me.


Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"


"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

Now now Aidan To the average user the visual effects are the stuff that will sell the new machines. It doesn't matter that the OS isnt 64bit as the benefit won't be really there because applications don't need to process numbers that large. The main benefits are going to be the memory addressing and the fact that the 970 is a faster system tacked to hypertransport.

 

[ebow]

Originally posted by AidenShaw Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

Umm... yesterday? Apple confirms Panther OS will be 32-bit Unfortunately, my wintel-using friends will already be able to use that 64-bit Windows on their 64-bit consumer machines... Wait, I know the answer is "not for a good while."

 

[lscangus]

anyone knows where i can download a copy of the latest Panther preview? i am not a ADC member, so where i can download it? Or anyone can send it to me please?

 

[vrapan]

anyone knows where i can download a copy of the latest Panther preview? i am not a ADC member, so where i can download it? Or anyone can send it to me please?

I bet you can find someone.... but you do know that what you are asking is ummmm..... well not very legal and an ADC member got kicked by Apple because they tried to leak the Preview.... On top of that think twice on installing it on a machine you use everyday. You will most probably have to erase your hard drive because it does not play well with preinstalled Mac OS X versions and it still is a Preview... Keep that in mind and good luck - it might be smarter to just wait a bit and buy it when it comes out .... shouldnt be that long anyway

 

[omnivector]

Downloaded from ADC in fairly decent speeds - took around 10hours or so for the three CDs. Stupidly enough tried to install in on top of Panther DP and of course it stuck on looking for my accounts and it wouldn't go to the login screen. Do your self a favour and make sure you either install in on top of 10.2.6 (and even that I am not so sure about) or even better on a clear HD. Apart from that it seems much much better than the DP. A few visible improvements but responsiveness speed and stability have been improved big time. I am planning on using it full time on my main system. Good luck to everyone trying to download it. You will be rewarded handsomely though. Jag made OS X usable Panther will make it a first rate OS.

*sigh* i wish i had read that BEFORE i tried to install it on top of the WWDC panther preview, instead of finding out the hard way and canning my setup from os x 10.2.6 -> preview. i knew i'd have to format when the final panther came out, but i was hoping it wouldn't be this soon. oh well. everything seems to work fine for me except the address book.. it crashes every time i try and open it. any one getting the same or know how to fix it? i even tried logging in as another user and launching addressbook, so it shouldn't be my user prefs .

 

[cnladd]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"

First, I'd like to point out that there have been 64-bit desktop workstations long before the Windows desktops ship (I say this as I look at the trusty Sun and HP workstations on my desk.)

For the vast majority of users, the lack of "true" 64-bit support doesn't really matter. Even for many scientific users it's a non-issue. 64-bit support is available to the kernel, meaning that the kernel can work with the full range of available memory. However, the VM stack is still only 32-bit -- meaning that applications will only be able to address 4GB of RAM at a time.

This was the case with many "64-bit" systems when they were first released. Solaris, for example, had been running on 64-bit processors for some time before the entire OS had 64-bit support enabled. Same with HP-UX.

It should also be noted that the 64-bit version of Windows doesn't contain full binary compatibility with 32-bit code. Instead, 32-bit code is executed in a "Windows on Windows" approach very similar to that used to execute old 16-bit code on NT/2000 (complete with all of the thunking issues that existed back then.)

It's appearing as if Mac OS X will be taking a route similar to that of Solaris, maintaining full binary compatibility between current 32-bit code and future 64-bit code. The time it takes to develop core APIs that fully take advantage of the new 64-bit processor will be well worth it.

 

[vrapan]

Address book crashing

except the address book.. it crashes every time i try and open it.

Same here it crashes every time I open it I have repaired permissions but still no good. Anyone suggestions?

 

[wms121]

pay attention to cnladd mac geeks..

he knows what he is talking about..

There are REASONS Steve and McNeally are still close friends.

Steve still needs Sun's 64 bit preeminence..especially with nice new big buddy IBM (cover your cleavage dear...) hovering over the sexy apple babes every move.

Apple COULD have 256 bit experimental boxes before 2010.

Watch for more IBM and the "new buddy" ads later this year ( saw one already in Newsweek with a G5 picture in it ,IBM processor ad).

The scientific market reallys needs more high-end mac stuff. They are doing such deeply complicated systems now ; and engineering secretaries and lab assistants are running things ; too many "design and research people" in legal meetings these days.

The 64 bit Java announcement ..when Apple makes it will be the key..not 64 bit Safari...or even 64 bit OSX.

<---don't embedd me again in Intel land

 

[jaedreth]

Pay attention to cnladd and wms121

The rumors of high end workstation macs are very likely true, if nowhere near ready for release. (My guess, Dec '04)

However, these machines are targeted to a market that no one is currently targeting specifically: The Scientific Market.

Sure, these machines would be great as low end Enterprise servers and would be awesome gaming machines too, for those gamers rich enough to afford them.

Imagine Genentech buying 64 proc G5's en masse...

Think NASA.

Apple could become the premier provider of scientific computational equipment.

Jaedreth

 

[pcharles]

Originally posted by daveL
Someone else mentioned this in the first Panther 7B21 thread.

Panther 7B21 has a few improvements, and extra flash but I dont think it is significantly more stable. I've been getting a system server crash relating to menubar icons in the finder.

I do like the ghost that appears when double clicking a file and some Safari issues have been fixed.

 

[daveL]

ADC Download - 7B21 GONE

FYI - the 7B21 images have been taken down from the ADC download site about 20 minutes ago. There is a note that says they are optomizing the downloads - come back later. There are also two messages in red saying they are having trouble with heavy traffic, etc. The Asia Pacific site was not given as a download option, just US1, US2, Japan, and Europe.

Just prior to this I got an email back from ADC site support saying they were actively working to bring more server capacity on-line to handle the demand. Hopefully things will get better soon.

 

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Right, I can't live without the "cool effect" of icons seeming to fly out at me.


Too bad that Panther's going to be 32-bit - if it were 64-bit that would be something that would at least match Apple's advertising hype for the G5.

Wonder how long it will take Apple to admit that Panther/G5 is a 32-bit system, and that Windows 64-bit desktops have been shipping for many months. Wait, I know that the answer is "never"


"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

What exactly would a 64 bit OS do for you? Allow you to use 64 bit addressing? Panther does that. Allow you to do 64 bit math? Panther does that. The only thing I can think of is being able to scale to very large systems by having the system itself use more than 4 gigs of ram (as opposed to the system + apps). Panther is not very heavy on style, it's heavy on workflow enhancements (exposé, dramatically improved preview and PDF handling for example), and security (FileVault, improved password handling). The "style" changes are actually quite minor. Roughly the same level of changes as 10.1->10.2 except for the evil brushed metal Finder.

 

[Adurbe]

for ADC to have to stop the d/l of the update due to the strain means there is BIG demand and i am surprised apples servers could not handle it...

 

[jaedreth]

Downloads

I'm not surprised.

Jaedreth

 

[daveL]

Originally posted by Adurbe
for ADC to have to stop the d/l of the update due to the strain means there is BIG demand and i am surprised apples servers could not handle it...

I just checked again and the images have not been put back yet. There's no info on when they will be available.

Man, has this been frustrating!

 

[daveL]

As an update (I'm assuming I'm not the only one interested, but I could be wrong Currently ADC is showing the same warnings. Japan has now dropped off the site selection list (just US and Europe). The 7B21 images are back, listed as file type "segments" with no size, but the note to come back later is still posted. If you click the download button, nothing happens.

There is no joy in Mudville.

 

[gregorypierce]

Re: finsihed downloading last night (UK)

Originally posted by vrapan
Downloaded from ADC in fairly decent speeds - took around 10hours or so for the three CDs. Stupidly enough tried to install in on top of Panther DP and of course it stuck on looking for my accounts and it wouldn't go to the login screen. Do your self a favour and make sure you either install in on top of 10.2.6 (and even that I am not so sure about) or even better on a clear HD. Apart from that it seems much much better than the DP. A few visible improvements but responsiveness speed and stability have been improved big time. I am planning on using it full time on my main system. Good luck to everyone trying to download it. You will be rewarded handsomely though. Jag made OS X usable Panther will make it a first rate OS.

Yeah, the load for Apple is apparently so high that it has simply been removed from the ADC servers altogether. Funny stuff.

 

[gregorypierce]

There are actually a good number of features that are new even in the WWDC release that I don't hear people talking about. One thing for certain, we didn't really notice the new features as much in Jaguar because the OS needed to get a ton faster. Now there are seemingly so many new features that we'll be discovering them for days. I've been through the DP since WWDC and I'm still running across new stuff from time to time.

 

[simX]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
"Style" vs "substance", sounds like Panther's heavy on the "style".

Hmm, seems someone hasn't heard about Expose, FileVault, fast user switching, dramatically improved Preview, Font Book, built-in faxing, TextEdit opening Microsoft Word documents, Mail.app and iCal supporting Exchange meeting requests, iDisk improvements, option to require password on waking, Auto Start Up and Shut Down, being able to customize keyboard shortcuts for any application, cloning drives from Disk Utility, Finder labels, etc., etc., etc.

I dunno about you, but it seems to me that Panther's heavy on the "substance".

 

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
What exactly would a 64 bit OS do for you? Allow you to use 64 bit addressing? Panther does that.

If so, please explain how? Is it true 64-bit, so that the standard malloc call returns a 64-bit pointer? Do all system calls (I/O, graphics, frameworks) accept 64-bit pointers?

Or is there a mutant 64-bit malloc, e.g. malloc64, that returns a 64-bit pointer while the standard call returns a 32-bit pointer.

If there are two different sizes of pointers, do you get two different classes of memory? Do you have to copy data between 32-bit buffers and 64-bit buffers in order to do I/O with it?

All we know for sure is that Panther's O/S is able to use more that 4 GiB of physical memory, and to divide that up among 32-bit processes. Just like Windows and Linux do on x86 systems with up to 64 GiB of RAM today. Just like 32-bit VMS did on Alpha systems, just like 16-bit PDP-11 operating systems did 30 years ago.

If you have proof of application-level access to extended virtual addressing, please post it.

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Allow you to do 64 bit math? Panther does that.

My 32-bit Windows and Linux systems do native 64-bit floating point, with full 64-bit datapaths.

The only difference with the PPC970 is that 64-bit integers become native - on x86 you need to use the SSE2 for 64-bit integers or (more commonly) synthesize using multiple 32-bit integer operations.

For the small number of applications which have significant 64-bit integer code, this is a win for the PPC970. How much of a advantage is open for speculation - since the superscalar O-O-O-E chips like the x86 can run multiple integer operations in parallel. Only benchmarks of 64-bit integer-heavy apps will be able to answer this question.

(BTW, are you sure that it is possible to use 64-bit integers while in 32-bit mode on the PPC970? I was trying to read the PPC documentation to determine this, and some references imply that the "32-bit mode" sets the effective integer register width, which would mean that a 32-bit program could not do native 64-bit integers.)

Anyway, thanks for the list of non-stylistic enhancements.