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boo-bear

macrumors newbie
Oct 12, 2002
5
0
Idaho
flanders

I gotta chime in here...as a long time apple (and specifically tibook user--I've had the 500, 667 and 800) I've got to say that I've just decided that the cost is WAY to high for what you're getting. I've just sold my last tibook and just received my new thinkpad 1.8Ghz A31 for less than $2300. And it's quite a bit faster than even my Dual 1Ghz desktop.
So, Apple, if you're listening...my 5 steps to market domination:

1. Drop the prices
2. Increase the speeds
3. Create incentives to move machines to corporate server rooms and desktops...Hint: Software alone won't do this.
4. Stop focusing on new home movie and mp3 gadgets and get us some software we can use to make $money$ with. Consultants recommend what they can use (Another hint: you already own WEBOBJECTS which IS GOOD ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE AND IS BEING USED BY SOME VERY LARGE ORGANIZATIONS, how about some marketing, support and decent pricing for large orders and licenses?)
5. STOP THE RUMOR PROBLEM, start giving us a road map so we (and our customers) can see where they're going!!!!!


Ok, first of all I'm sure there are other posts that will reply to this better than I will. So, your new thinkpad is faster at what? 1. If you look at the link on the front page to Think Secret they are hinting at a $200 price drop across the line on iBooks. 2. They are increasing the speeds, but at the same time making sure that they can give battery life that is worth the computer being portable. 3. Have you looked at XServer? Read any reviews by national magazines about how it works, and how successful it would be in the enterprise? 4. The software is out there, and as a software developer yourself, you should understand the hours involved in writing major software like that. You can't afford to just give that away, and I know of no other computer company on the planet that is aggressively looking for good software companies and bringing them into the fold to provide software that will support what they are building that well. 5. There will always be rumors no matter who, what, or when any company does something.

BTW, as others have alluded to in other posts, how many hours of battery use do you have with your thinkpad, and how quick is it when running only on battery power? Just some thoughts that I have.
 

flanders

macrumors member
Jul 24, 2002
40
0
Atlanta, GA
kfury,
you are lucky! I've been waiting for years to find a mixed environment. I can't tell you how many times I've pitched an Xserve or iMacs on the desk. I see it in some film companies and of course print pre-press but never in plain old corporate america.

It is a shame, because the macs really are a better place to be.

Oh, and I do like to be on the cutting edge...but not as bad as it looks. One powerbook (the 500) was replaced by a client who sent it crashing to a concrete floor sending me a new 667 in return, and the 800 was bought after giving my almost new 667 to another employee at my firm. Sometimes it's good to be in the right place at the right time ;-)
 

gopher

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2002
1,475
0
Maryland, USA
Originally posted by flanders
I gotta chime in here...as a long time apple (and specifically tibook user--I've had the 500, 667 and 800) I've got to say that I've just decided that the cost is WAY to high for what you're getting. I've just sold my last tibook and just received my new thinkpad 1.8Ghz A31 for less than $2300. And it's quite a bit faster than even my Dual 1Ghz desktop.

Now I really love Apple, and as a professional software developer (carbon, webobjects and cocoa) I certainly enjoy the hardware design and OS. They're fabulous. But--in my world paying customers use Sun/Intel servers and PCs for the desktops. They go with what works and won't break the bank.

To agree with a previous poster, I do think it's time to give apple some space and see what they can do within the next year. OSX is great, but I don't see them focusing on any enterprise sales, or decreasing cost to entry for budding developers or casual users(yes $3500 for an 800Mhz machine is far too much even for seasoned apple users with good paying jobs.)

If you ask me, this is _exactly_ the situation NeXT had before they went software only. Machines were far too expensive, and all they had to offer was superior software with no incentives for anyone. We all know how this story went, and I for one was burned then and don't want to get burned this time.

So, Apple, if you're listening...my 5 steps to market domination:

1. Drop the prices
2. Increase the speeds
3. Create incentives to move machines to corporate server rooms and desktops...Hint: Software alone won't do this.
4. Stop focusing on new home movie and mp3 gadgets and get us some software we can use to make $money$ with. Consultants recommend what they can use (Another hint: you already own WEBOBJECTS which IS GOOD ENTERPRISE SOFTWARE AND IS BEING USED BY SOME VERY LARGE ORGANIZATIONS, how about some marketing, support and decent pricing for large orders and licenses?)
5. STOP THE RUMOR PROBLEM, start giving us a road map so we (and our customers) can see where they're going!!!!!

Okay, I'm out of breath now so I'll stop ranting. I still have my DP1000, but how long is anyone's guess.

Unfortunately Apple does not read these boards...if you want to get to someone at Apple who actually listens, speak to customer relations through 1-800-APLCARE. They will take down your notes.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,573
1,527
Originally posted by Mirage_
Your post is offtopic. While its doubtful that the cost to dell is 120$, it's still in there. Its a marketing ploy/deal between Dell and the ISP's. Dell *says* they are giving away 6 months of ____ ISP's service. Dell gets a discount from ISP. Said ISP gets more subscribers by being associated with Dell. I don't see 6 months of MSN, AOL, or Earthlink as an advantage...lol...I've never used MSN, but AOL and Earthlink suck.

A 933mhz G4 powerbook would be pretty quick, I'd like to see them update the graphics card, but its all really speculation until apple releases info. I won't be in the laptop market for at least another year or two, I've got my Pismo / New Dual 1ghz. Built in bluetooth would be cool, although I haven't seen to many bluetooth gadgets, just pda-phone stuff. I imagine that with Apple pushing it, there will be some nice developments soon ;) I like the TiBook's casing...SuperDrives would be cool in the PowerBook, but I haven't really used mine to burn DVD's yet. I'd rather have a fast CD-RW in my PowerBook.


Mirage,

So what if the $120 is "in there"? The bottom line cost on the Dell is still LESS than the Apple. If it's "included" in the price, that's no skin off your nose…it's no different than the iApps which are "in there" for Macs.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,573
1,527
Originally posted by gopher


It is force feeding...because once they sign you on, they have your credit card number, and cancelling accounts are difficult. These so called free internet accounts end up costing more than they are worth. The only reason I use Earthlink now, is because they are the cheapest in high speed internet access in my area. I wouldn't have gone with them for dialup though. It is called bait and switch. And yes I'm aware .Mac did that, but at least Apple didn't ask for my credit card number when I signed up for iTools originally. If that page showed me I could select not to receive any of the trial internet services, then I wouldn't complain about that...and anyway the Dell machines have less battery life, and more often than not heavier to obtain all the features they want to add. The TiBook is an excellent value for all the stuff they put in a 5.2 lbs notebook. 5 hours of battery, gigabit ethernet, digital video second display support for extended desktop, S-Video out, SVGA adapter for VGA displays, combo drive. And whether you like it or not, being able to at the present time do 8 billion floating point calculations a second is faster than any PC notebook on the market. If your Mac notebook is slow, you have done something to slow it down, like run Norton Utilities or add some startup item like SETI@home which really runs best using the SETI dockling and Darwin version of SETI.


Gopher, you still don't get it. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SIGN UP FOR ANY OF THOSE ISP'S…IT IS SIMPLY PROVIDED TO YOU FREE FOR SIX MONTHS SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO WANT ONE OF THOSE ISPs. You still have to go through ALL the usual steps to sign up for one of those ISPs that you would with a Mac or any other computer…the only difference is you don't PAY for the first six months.

Ultimately, the only real criticism you could POSSIBLY have is that by offering these services for free for six months, dumb and unsuspecting consumers are lured to "bad" ISPs. This would be a pretty dumb argument, since you'd be blaming customers for not being informed regarding the "other" ISPs out there. If a customer is that uninformed, they have no business getting a DSL or cable connection anyway. AOL will provide them with a fine - and free - starter package.
 

gopher

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2002
1,475
0
Maryland, USA
Originally posted by john123



Gopher, you still don't get it. YOU ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO SIGN UP FOR ANY OF THOSE ISP'S…IT IS SIMPLY PROVIDED TO YOU FREE FOR SIX MONTHS SHOULD YOU CHOOSE TO WANT ONE OF THOSE ISPs. You still have to go through ALL the usual steps to sign up for one of those ISPs that you would with a Mac or any other computer…the only difference is you don't PAY for the first six months.

Ultimately, the only real criticism you could POSSIBLY have is that by offering these services for free for six months, dumb and unsuspecting consumers are lured to "bad" ISPs. This would be a pretty dumb argument, since you'd be blaming customers for not being informed regarding the "other" ISPs out there. If a customer is that uninformed, they have no business getting a DSL or cable connection anyway. AOL will provide them with a fine - and free - starter package.

God, you shout too much. "should you choose you want one of those ISPs?" My point is the page says you have to choose from those 3 ISPs. I don't see a fourth option "Other." Free or not, it already requires you to sign up for one of those services for 6 months. That is not freedom. I don't want a computer company to tell me who I should sign up for. When I go to a store, and it tells me, pick from one of these 3 services, and doesn't allow me to pick none, it would appear I'm obligated to go after those services. Regardless of whether it is free, it still limits my choice...if I could sign up with no service offered on that page I would. But I can't.
That's my point.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,573
1,527
Originally posted by gopher


God, you shout too much. "should you choose you want one of those ISPs?" My point is the page says you have to choose from those 3 ISPs. I don't see a fourth option "Other." Free or not, it already requires you to sign up for one of those services for 6 months. That is not freedom. I don't want a computer company to tell me who I should sign up for. When I go to a store, and it tells me, pick from one of these 3 services, and doesn't allow me to pick none, it would appear I'm obligated to go after those services. Regardless of whether it is free, it still limits my choice...if I could sign up with no service offered on that page I would. But I can't.
That's my point.

Man, you still don't get it. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SIGN UP WITH ANY SERVICE, PERIOD. You are not "required" to do any of it. Just think about it -- how could they possibly enforce that logistically?

All they do is OFFER you any of those services for free for 6 months if you WANT them. The "fourth option" that you "don't see" is simply not to sign up. I've taken this "fourth option" on tons of Dells that I have purchased.

I have no clue where in the world you got the idea that you had to sign up for one of them. Just go read the print, dude.
 

kfury

macrumors newbie
Jul 24, 2002
23
0
Originally posted by john123
All they do is OFFER you any of those services for free for 6 months if you WANT them. The "fourth option" that you "don't see" is simply not to sign up.

The question that none of us are in a position to answer, and is why you guys are shouting at each other, is whether Dell pays any money at all to these ISPs if you do sign up, or if Dell gets any money back from the ISPs if you *do* sign up.

If the first is true then a machine with 'no ISP' selected (either by a nonexistant radio button, or by not following trhough with signup) costs Dell less, and since they're not passing that savings on to you, it means the ISP fee is built into the price, and you're paying a markup whether you take advantage of it or not, so it's not really free.

If the second is true, and Dell has a profit-sharing arrangement with these ISPs, such that Dell gets say 20% of the monthly fees you pay Earthlink after the 6 months are up, then the fact that they *seem to* rope you into one of their ISP partners, actually brings Dell prices DOWN, because they're making money off every person who DOES sign up. Therefore by not signing up you're getting the advantage of a cheaper box, because the prices are already lowered in anticipation of the revenue-share money Dell expects from your long-term deal with the ISP.

Anyone know how I can get one of those analyst jobs? This stuff really isn't so hard to grasp.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com
 

gopher

macrumors 65816
Mar 31, 2002
1,475
0
Maryland, USA
Originally posted by kfury


The question that none of us are in a position to answer, and is why you guys are shouting at each other, is whether Dell pays any money at all to these ISPs if you do sign up, or if Dell gets any money back from the ISPs if you *do* sign up.

If the first is true then a machine with 'no ISP' selected (either by a nonexistant radio button, or by not following trhough with signup) costs Dell less, and since they're not passing that savings on to you, it means the ISP fee is built into the price, and you're paying a markup whether you take advantage of it or not, so it's not really free.

If the second is true, and Dell has a profit-sharing arrangement with these ISPs, such that Dell gets say 20% of the monthly fees you pay Earthlink after the 6 months are up, then the fact that they *seem to* rope you into one of their ISP partners, actually brings Dell prices DOWN, because they're making money off every person who DOES sign up. Therefore by not signing up you're getting the advantage of a cheaper box, because the prices are already lowered in anticipation of the revenue-share money Dell expects from your long-term deal with the ISP.

Anyone know how I can get one of those analyst jobs? This stuff really isn't so hard to grasp.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com

Well perhaps you want to work for the CIO office of a major government firm....they need your kind of clear thinking. Both possibilities are disgusting.

I agree with you it is one big marketing gimick. And the fact there is no "Other" radio button makes me suspect one of the two things you said is true.
 

john123

macrumors 68030
Jul 20, 2001
2,573
1,527
Kfury:

If the first condition is true, and you do "pay a markup," my contention throughout my last few posts is: who cares? It's still cheaper, even after this added cost, than the Mac.

Not to be a jerk, but there's a long way to go between typing out elementary logic and getting an analyst job. Good, high-powered (and high-paid) analysis these days relies on some pretty sophisticated econometric (this is not economic misspelled, FYI) modeling. That entails some fairly rigorous mathetmatical training that is blended with theory. That old math stuff you might have learned in college -- partial derivatives and Lagrange multipliers and such -- applies here.

Now, back to topic: let's say ThinkSecret is right and we don't see SuperDrives on the 6th. Anyone think they might come in a shadow revision, much like combo drives did about a year ago?
 

kfury

macrumors newbie
Jul 24, 2002
23
0
Originally posted by john123
If the first condition is true, and you do "pay a markup," my contention throughout my last few posts is: who cares? It's still cheaper, even after this added cost, than the Mac.
I don't believe the subject came up so much as a statement that macs are cheaper than Dells, but that a user was frustrated that they were forced to 'choose the lesser evil' even if they knew they could most likely disregard that selection later. This kind of commitment, even if the consumer believes it to be an empty one, is taken seriously by people about to spend more money on a single online transaction than they ever have before.
Not to be a jerk, but there's a long way to go between typing out elementary logic and getting an analyst job. Good, high-powered (and high-paid) analysis these days relies on some pretty sophisticated econometric (this is not economic misspelled, FYI) modeling. That entails some fairly rigorous mathetmatical training that is blended with theory. That old math stuff you might have learned in college -- partial derivatives and Lagrange multipliers and such -- applies here.
No jerkiness taken; of course I was joking. My area of expertise is human-computer interaction, not market analysis. Right now I'm finishing my masters at Carnegie Mellon, and before that I was designing interfaces at Yahoo. Even though we use a lot of the same math when doing ethnographic and psychographic analyses, I would no more purport to be capable of doing an industry analyst's job than I would expect someone from wall street to perform a contextual inquiry, cognitive walkthrough, or GOMS model.
Now, back to topic: let's say ThinkSecret is right and we don't see SuperDrives on the 6th. Anyone think they might come in a shadow revision, much like combo drives did about a year ago?
That's a very good question. Apple's coming out with actual significant changes to the portable line in January, but those changes will likely augment the current TiBook form factor, not replace it. As an Apple exec has publicly stated, there will certainly be SuperTiBooks once the parts are available. It seems likely that they'd do a 'drive-bump' rev if the alternative was waiting for the next speedbump. I think they'd be more vocal about it than they were with the combo drives though. This is bigger news and (if this thread is any indication) one that a fair number of users care about, since the drive is supported by various iApps, as I believe the combo drive was not, when it was dropped in (correct me if I'm wrong, but iTunes burning and finder disc burning came after combo drives were in TiBooks?). I'm betting it's a 'drop-in' feature they'll bring up at MWSF, amidst the bigger news.

Kevin Fox
Me, me, me! http://fury.com
 

Thirteenva

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
679
0
just to much complaining...

Look, if you feel wintel is cheaper, faster, better, or whatever then go buy one. Sh%t or get off the pot. I personally am tired of hearing about it. If you do not want to pay for a mac, then don't. If you want something faster than a mac, then go find one.

Same stuff day in and day out. I think that macs are a little more expensive, and i am on a very tight budget BUT, if i was shopping for another computer, I'd still buy a mac. Its worth more to me and i'll pay more to have it.

When a company can survive for years on 5% of the market while selling "overpriced" products, they must be doing something right because the ONLY way to survive on so little market share is through repeat business.
 

shadowfax

macrumors 603
Sep 6, 2002
5,849
0
Houston, TX
i agree. when apple "overpirces," it's not like you can't go get something else easily, and fit in with 95% of the rest of the computer world. it's not like M$, where you get crap and still have to pay more. and it's not all apple's fault that they are behind. i would venture to blame those such as motorola and ATI... especially ATI for holding back on the 9700. it's things like that that disadvantage apple, and it's still worth it, IMO, because intel and M$ are quickly starting to seem very full of themselves, which causes many evils in corporations. am i the only one who thinks that the recent abortive switch ad, among other things, is rather enronesque? there is just as little corporate honesty at M$ as there. would you really tie yourself to a company like that just to save money?
 

Dee

macrumors newbie
Nov 5, 2002
2
0
Nottingham, UK
Macuser.co.uk seems right

Yup - seems macuser.co.uk has it mostly right. Have a friend at a big authorised UK Apple dealer and they say the new Powerbook is 933 Mhz, no superdrive (something to do with Panasonic but can't remember the facts he said), in built bluetooth. No 1 Ghz chips due to heat problems (and powerbooks get hot enough as it is!) They also said the 667 and 800 Mhz were to be discontinued.

How true this all is not sure but they seem to have a fair few of the specs.

With a shortage of Powerbooks (it can take 5 weeks to get one in the UK) they have to release an updated powerbook before Christmas. It's just a pity that they may release a new Powerbook in the new year. Wouldn't it be great to be able to upgrade your newly acquired computer if you only just bought it before a complete overhaul (like as in software updates). Oh well.

D.
 

Kid Red

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2001
1,428
157
And all of this dell **** has what exactly to do with Apple and PB rumors? Damn PC users hijacking a decent thread.
 

bkassing

macrumors newbie
Jul 18, 2002
20
0
Damn PC User

"And all of this dell **** has what exactly to do with Apple and PB rumors? Damn PC users hijacking a decent thread."

For those of you morons who think that the only problems with PBs are with Apple, it is sometimes good to know that it is a industry problem and not an Apple problem. Because for the most part we have a bunch of whiney apple zealots who refuse to believe that 95% uses a PC and PC is kicking the PB's ass when it comes to features, pricing and performance.

So for somebody like me who has a laptop for work and a MAC at home who is DYING to buy a powerbook, I find it amusing of all the morons who seem to think that everything is an Apple problem.

Which then of course leads us to new features as in if a PC company can do XXX why can't Apple give us XXX as well if there are going to charge way more than a PC company. Why shouldn't MAC video be faster than a pc? It's a "digital hub" after all. Same for processor? These are legitimate beefs. The fact that a powerbook is HOT isn't because it's Apple's problem it is everyone's problem.

So why talk about PC's? Who's leading here? The PC industry or Apple? With this upgrade, we'll see. Right now, Apple is behind.
 
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