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While USA might be bigger, it also has a lot more reasources to pull from. FInland is smaller, yes. But Finland still has a lot lower population-density than USA does. While US might have more territory to cover, that area has more potential customers on average, than Finland does. And if we want tot talk government funding, it should be noted that the government of Finland has 30+ billion euros to play around with annually. US Federal Budget for 2008 is 2.9 TRILLION dollars! That's close to 2 trillion euros.



Instead of size, look at population-density. Japan is small, but would it be able to give everyone hi-speed internet if population of Japan was 10.000, spread evenly across the islands?



I fail to see how suburban-living would have any effect on that. Suburban-living is still quite dense living with lots of paying customers.



I live in a town of 38.000 people. Earlier I lived about 3 kilometers from the center, in a middle of nowhere. I could have chosen from more broadband-operators than I could remember, but in the end I decided to stick with my trusted ol' 1MB/8MB ADSL.


You fail to realize how incredibly large the US is. The US is about the size of Europe. The population density of Europe is 3X that of the United States.

I am not saying it isn't possible, but for a private company to invest billions if not trillions of dollars to lay fiber across the entire US is unrealistic. This is why the Government must step in.

The state of broadband is poor, but there are logical reasons for it being the way it is. It's not something to over generalize and say that the US is just "behind" for no logical reason.
 
I fail to see how suburban-living would have any effect on that. Suburban-living is still quite dense living with lots of paying customers.

I live in a town of 38.000 people. Earlier I lived about 3 kilometers from the center, in a middle of nowhere. I could have chosen from more broadband-operators than I could remember, but in the end I decided to stick with my trusted ol' 1MB/8MB ADSL.

Suburban living is applicable because of the latency in the copper wire. I live in the DFW (Dallas-Fort Worth, 4h largest metropolitan area in the US with over 6 million people) metroplex and while it is true that it's fairly dense the suburbs just keep expanding outward and while people do have money AT&T, Verizon, Time Warner, etc don't have a station close enough to me that I can get any more than 3Mb DSL (maybe 6Mb cable but their rates are INSANE). Problem is that the suburbs are growing too fast for the companies to keep up with because every time a new 'burb pops up you need a facility relatively close OR lines with fiber optics to a facility further away.

Blazing fast internet speed just isn't a priority for most Americans. Heck - my parents would freak if they could get 1.5Mb at their house...
 
You fail to realize how incredibly large the US is. The US is about the size of Europe. The population density of Europe is 3X that of the United States.

You fail to realize that Europe is not a homogenous area. How exactly does population-density of Europe have any relevance to broadband in Finland? Because Finland is part of Europe? Or do you think that having good broadband in Finland is easy, since population-density in Europe is bigger than in USA? Nevermind the fact, that population-density in _Finland_ significantly lower than the one in USA?

I am not saying it isn't possible, but for a private company to invest billions if not trillions of dollars to lay fiber across the entire US is unrealistic. This is why the Government must step in.

And like I said, the US government has trillions to play around with. Finnish government has about 30+ billions. Like I said: USA is bigger, but it also as a lot more resources.
 
I have lived in densely populated areas, and sparsely populated areas, and never has the latency of the copper been an issue for me.

Well I live in Fort Worth in a suburb and the latency in the wire is enough to limit my max DSL to 3Mb and for my parents it's enough that they can't get any DSL at all - so yeah, it's a problem.
 
You fail to realize that Europe is not a homogenous area. How exactly does population-density of Europe have any relevance to broadband in Finland? Because Finland is part of Europe? Or do you think that having good broadband in Finland is easy, since population-density in Europe is bigger than in USA? Nevermind the fact, that population-density in _Finland_ significantly lower than the one in USA?



And like I said, the US government has trillions to play around with. Finnish government has about 30+ billions. Like I said: USA is bigger, but it also as a lot more resources.

As was previously noted the US doesn't actually have ANY money to play around with since we're running a multi-trillion dollar debt. I compare it more to individual states. Some states have much better schools and funding than others - while others have better roads. It's all about priorities...

If those big tax breaks to the big companies won't encourage them to invest in fiber-optics than nothing will and I'm not willing to spend my tax money so I can get faster internet and 99.99% of Americans would agree with me on that. Now if we had no debt at all we'd still have a problem because we'd rather have the money in our hands than let the gov't p!ss it away on stuff we don't really care about. If high-speed broadband is important enough to you you'll pay for it (FIOS, 25Mb+) but for most people they are perfectly happy downloading stuff b/w 600KBps and 1MBps.
 
Upload vs. Download speeds

Absolutely true, but the providers in the U.S. WANT it this way. Traditionally, it has always cost FAR more to have good upload bandwidth than download bandwidth. The idea seemed to be, "If you want fast download speeds, you're just a typical consumer/end-user. But if you want fast UPLOAD speeds, you must be some type of content provider running a server. As a provider, you're one of the ones who can make a PROFIT from what you do with your connection, so YOU foot the majority of the bill!"

What's really breaking this business model, though, is p2p sharing. Technologies like BitTorrent break the mold, because all of a sudden, *everybody* involved in a transfer is helping distribute the data as well as downloading it.

The biggest expense for the bandwidth providers is going to be the routers, not the "pipes", though. Even if you offered everybody in a city fiber to the door and dirt cheap 50Mbit connections, they'd have a huge bottleneck trying to transfer data, even to EACH OTHER, because the routing and switching equipment would get overloaded. The processors in the routers can only deal with directing so many TCP/IP packets at a time....


While I totally agree with Walt about our pathetic internet speeds, the real bottleneck is going to become the servers that we connect to. Most are still connected to a T1 line, and some are up to T3s. It's really expensive to take the step up to OCxx. A T3 gets a max of about 45Mbps. If you're connection is 50, you're already maxing out the server, and there's probably more than just you connected to it.

We need to focus on renewing our infrastructure and making everything cheaper. It's the one thing that I can think of that can become cheaper as gasoline approaches infinity. :)
 
The problem with increasing HSDPA speeds beyond 1Mb/s down and 500k/s up is the backhaul to the towers. Sprint is having the same problem with their WiMax implementation. They cant get a big enough pipe to each tower. A couple of T1s might be fine for EDGE and voice data, but not for HSDPA speeds above 1Mb/s.

Here in Germany they use microwave radio links to connect the towers wirelessly to a larger site that provides enough bandwidth. Sometimes - under heavy weather conditions- these links fail and the tower falls back to a wired backup connection and allows only voice calls (or slow data speeds). But in general this works good and coverage with 3.6 or even 7.2 mbit is growing rapidly.

Christian
 
Here in Germany they use microwave radio links to connect the towers wirelessly to a larger site that provides enough bandwidth. Sometimes - under heavy weather conditions- these links fail and the tower falls back to a wired backup connection and allows only voice calls (or slow data speeds). But in general this works good and coverage with 3.6 or even 7.2 mbit is growing rapidly.

Christian

I'm just going to claim international ignorance here but did the German gov't help set up that system or was it totally funded by the corporations?

Another issue that people skip over is the upkeep costs of having such a geographically large country. Example: The US has over 5.7 million miles of paved roadway, 58 parks being kept by the National Park Service and not to mention the large (and growing) cost of commuting to work and elsewhere. Internet speeds are just so far down the list of things that are important it won't be addressed until the free market makes it such.
 
Anybody else?

When SJ was talking about downloading Apps via the cell network was I the only one who said to themselves "Looks like there's going to be a 3G version coming soon because those apps are going to be way too big to download via EDGE"?

I mean, they won't even let you use iTunes via the cell network right now - why in the world would they allow every single iPhone user to download apps via EDGE? Anyway - I think it's fairly obvious there's going to be some mention of a 3G version at the developers conference.
 
When SJ was talking about downloading Apps via the cell network was I the only one who said to themselves "Looks like there's going to be a 3G version coming soon because those apps are going to be way too big to download via EDGE"?

I mean, they won't even let you use iTunes via the cell network right now - why in the world would they allow every single iPhone user to download apps via EDGE? Anyway - I think it's fairly obvious there's going to be some mention of a 3G version at the developers conference.

Well, I agree with your assessment for what it's worth - and I'm planning my next purchase accordingly!
 
i've been wondering what kind of deal would apple give to existing iphone owners to upgrade to the 3G version... it would be sweet to offer a 200 dollar exchange program where you bring your old iphone in and get the new one for 200 without extending the contract with at&t. :D wishful thinking on my part.
 
As was previously noted the US doesn't actually have ANY money to play around with since we're running a multi-trillion dollar debt. I compare it more to individual states. Some states have much better schools and funding than others - while others have better roads. It's all about priorities...

If those big tax breaks to the big companies won't encourage them to invest in fiber-optics than nothing will and I'm not willing to spend my tax money so I can get faster internet and 99.99% of Americans would agree with me on that. Now if we had no debt at all we'd still have a problem because we'd rather have the money in our hands than let the gov't p!ss it away on stuff we don't really care about. If high-speed broadband is important enough to you you'll pay for it (FIOS, 25Mb+) but for most people they are perfectly happy downloading stuff b/w 600KBps and 1MBps.

lol exactly... we're so indebted to china and japan, and at the same time digging a deeper hole in ss. it's really about priority, and we chose to spend it on war while other countries chose to improve infrastructure.
 
While USA might be bigger, it also has a lot more reasources to pull from. FInland is smaller, yes. But Finland still has a lot lower population-density than USA does. While US might have more territory to cover, that area has more potential customers on average, than Finland does. And if we want tot talk government funding, it should be noted that the government of Finland has 30+ billion euros to play around with annually. US Federal Budget for 2008 is 2.9 TRILLION dollars! That's close to 2 trillion euros.

And our debt is over 9 trillion. What's Finland's?

I fail to see how suburban-living would have any effect on that. Suburban-living is still quite dense living with lots of paying customers.

The problem is, as with most civilizations, we tend to live along areas with access to water. That means we are divided into two coasts. Most of our population lives either on the East coast, the West coast, Texas, the Mississippi, or the Great Lakes. So basically, everyone is divided by the Mississippi, with relatively no one living between there and California. That's a good chunk of land. People live there, but nowhere near the quantities of the coasts.

In the suburbs, urban sprawl is huge. If you include the suburbs, my city is about 40 miles wide.
 
What does the gas cost in USA? 3.04 dollars/gallon? That's a bit over 2 euros for 3.78 liters of fuel, or 53 euro-cents per liter. Over here gasoline costs about 1.4 euros per LITER, almost three times as much! And we seem to be doing just fine.

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I think that Americans who whine about price of gasoline are just a bunch of crybabies.

I believe the average is verging on $4 per gallon, and we also produce oil. I know gas is more expensive in Europe. The thing is—though I don't know where you live—I bet it takes you less than a day to drive across your entire country. Secondly, America buys over 70% of the Gasoline of the world and we receive very little of a discount. We have relatively ****** transportation. In every European city I've ever been in, it was easy to walk around to everywhere I needed to get to. My closest grocery store is probably 5 miles away, and I live in the exact center of a major metropolitan city. I used to live 40 miles away round trip.

I mean if you really want to go there, you probably get free healthcare. It's going to cost me $150 extra per month just to get that. So there's your difference. :) Not to mention we also fund R&D for pharmaceuticals which the world rips off from our FDA records.

Your currency is worth more and your cost of living is higher. That probably also means that you get paid more than me. And your homeowner's insurance probably didn't jump 50% this year because of hurricanes that never actually hit your city.

The amount of taxes in your gasoline is about 13%, hardly "extraordinary"

It's more like 18 to 19%. Of course my sales tax is 7%. And I know you have a high VAT. At least your tax adds some value and you're not taxed based on income (which is technically illegal in the United States, but I digress).

I saw a survey that said that when buying cars, Americans value cupholders more than good fuel-mileage....

That's nice, but totally a stereotype as far as I know.

There are few simple things Americans could make things better for themselves and for others:

a) No, you do not need that SUV
b) No, you probably don't need that truck either
c) No, you do not need that 3-liter V6 in your family-car
d) No, you don't need that large sedan to haul four people. Something like VW Golf is big enough
e) No, you don't HAVE to drive everywhere
f) Turbo beats cubic inches
g) Diesel beats gasoline

A. N/A
B. N/A
C. Mine's 4 but it's not a family car, and I only drive 8 miles a day and get 20-25mpg.
D. N/A
E. There's not even a sidewalk to that grocery store I was talking about. I recently had a cyst so I can't bike and it's 75 degrees Fahrenheit with 79% humidity and it's 22:51. Yes, we pretty much have to drive everywhere.
F. If you can get me one in a 2005+ Mustang for under 5k I'll be glad to install it :)
G. Yeah, it's also like 5.76 a gallon and smells like ass. Go to Paris where they're restoring the façades of buildings. On one side it's black, on the clean side it's white. Diesel is really clean.
 
i assume 3G iPhone will sell for approx 499, but is there any reason apple will continue to sell the non-3G model
 
Absolutely true, but the providers in the U.S. WANT it this way. Traditionally, it has always cost FAR more to have good upload bandwidth than download bandwidth. The idea seemed to be, "If you want fast download speeds, you're just a typical consumer/end-user. But if you want fast UPLOAD speeds, you must be some type of content provider running a server. As a provider, you're one of the ones who can make a PROFIT from what you do with your connection, so YOU foot the majority of the bill!"

What's really breaking this business model, though, is p2p sharing. Technologies like BitTorrent break the mold, because all of a sudden, *everybody* involved in a transfer is helping distribute the data as well as downloading it.

The biggest expense for the bandwidth providers is going to be the routers, not the "pipes", though. Even if you offered everybody in a city fiber to the door and dirt cheap 50Mbit connections, they'd have a huge bottleneck trying to transfer data, even to EACH OTHER, because the routing and switching equipment would get overloaded. The processors in the routers can only deal with directing so many TCP/IP packets at a time....

Agreed. I think that in the long term you are correct with the routing issues. Right now though, it doesn't matter as we can't even connect to the systems at that speed. More speed really only means you can do more at once, and that is even limited by human ability.
 
lol exactly... we're so indebted to china and japan, and at the same time digging a deeper hole in ss. it's really about priority, and we chose to spend it on war while other countries chose to improve infrastructure.

Don't let stupid people make you think that if we weren't involved in a war that we'd magically be out of debt. What most people like to quote is the operating cost of x# of troops and all of that but here's the big problem. All those troops (the actives anyway) would be getting paid regardless so their cost isn't a war cost. Anyway, the gov't wastes money on way way way more things than a war. At least money to the war actually does something (agree with it or not our troops still have some pretty decent gear) as opposed to the billions of dollars we throw away on pet projects that benefit maybe a couple thousand people at most.

Of course they could solve all of that by stopping to give boat loads of money to other countries and world organizations when we don't even have our own country in order...

All of that being said there are way more important things than internet speed on the US importance list (SS, healthcare, mortgage stuff) so, yeah, the gov't intervening in internet speeds isn't going to happen. At least for a very, very, very, very long time.
 
Don't let stupid people make you think that if we weren't involved in a war that we'd magically be out of debt. What most people like to quote is the operating cost of x# of troops and all of that but here's the big problem. All those troops (the actives anyway) would be getting paid regardless so their cost isn't a war cost. Anyway, the gov't wastes money on way way way more things than a war. At least money to the war actually does something (agree with it or not our troops still have some pretty decent gear) as opposed to the billions of dollars we throw away on pet projects that benefit maybe a couple thousand people at most.

Of course they could solve all of that by stopping to give boat loads of money to other countries and world organizations when we don't even have our own country in order...

All of that being said there are way more important things than internet speed on the US importance list (SS, healthcare, mortgage stuff) so, yeah, the gov't intervening in internet speeds isn't going to happen. At least for a very, very, very, very long time.

Although I agree to many of your points, I think it's stupid of you to call people stupid when they believe that war is the cause of our debt. It certainly costs money to be at war. Unless you're a chief of staff, I don't think you know exactly where our money is going according to war.

We have less active duty troops during times of peace, so it is a little bit cheaper. But yes, we do spend a lot on things other than war (like hearings on steroids in baseball—which is obviously done to keep our minds off of important things like the war and economy).

Here's the strange thing. We have a war, which is supposed to fuel economy, and yet our economy is in a downturn.

All I know is, Clinton had outlined plans that would have paid off our debt before this decade is out. We began with 2 trillion and we're at 9. I'm pretty sure that war has a little to do with that. Without the war, we'd still be in debt no doubt. It's really the piss poor president, and piss poor government, that keeps us down. No one has any ideas on how to make this country what it was meant to be. If you ask me, we "let the terrorists win," already. Politicians look out for themselves instead of trying to do a good job. The Statue of Liberty—the symbol of our freedom—is no longer free to be entered. It takes two separate passes through security to even go on the pedestal, and there's nothing but a ferry ride between the two checkpoints. We're definitely in a sorry state of affairs. I hope that you at least see that.

I think another huge problem with us is that we're supposed to be the United States, but we're not really united. We really should be more of a national society. My state shouldn't have different traffic laws than any other. We shouldn't have different driver's licenses. Of course, I'd also like a VAT and an end to the IRS (as it's not actually a government institution and income tax isn't written in law). Now you probably think I'm crazy, but it's a lot better in Europe. One only has to look at how presidential elections are held in France, for example—it actually makes sense—or the state of healthcare in the US vs. other countries.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if California cracked down on telecoms for improperly advertising their speeds. California actually seems to want to protect it's consumers, unlike any other state in the union or the federal government.

We're really in a sad state. Of course we go through periods where everything the government does is stupid. And each country has it's own political follies. But really, I think we might be approaching an all time low, except compared to the great depression. But that also affected the rest of the world.

Anyway, how'd we get into this talk?

Our internet sucks, but it really doesn't matter because 10Mbps is overkill for most servers. That 3G iPhone better be out soon damnit. Maybe we'll get lucky and it'll be out tomorrow. One can dream.
 
in response to "the grid" guy.

Umm Cern didn't create the web it was initially invented by the military for communications purposes. Cern may have developed a super fast internet type... thing, but something like that definitely won't be wide spread without revolutionizing computers. There is another internet called internet 2 that is more promising than the seemingly sci-fi internet your refering to that offers something like 3Gb/s or something like that I haven't seen the site in awhile. this internet is actually functional but requires high monthly rates and its utilized by universities and rich people.
 
Although I agree to many of your points, I think it's stupid of you to call people stupid when they believe that war is the cause of our debt. It certainly costs money to be at war. Unless you're a chief of staff, I don't think you know exactly where our money is going according to war.

We have less active duty troops during times of peace, so it is a little bit cheaper. But yes, we do spend a lot on things other than war (like hearings on steroids in baseball—which is obviously done to keep our minds off of important things like the war and economy).

Here's the strange thing. We have a war, which is supposed to fuel economy, and yet our economy is in a downturn.

All I know is, Clinton had outlined plans that would have paid off our debt before this decade is out. We began with 2 trillion and we're at 9. I'm pretty sure that war has a little to do with that. Without the war, we'd still be in debt no doubt. It's really the piss poor president, and piss poor government, that keeps us down. No one has any ideas on how to make this country what it was meant to be. If you ask me, we "let the terrorists win," already. Politicians look out for themselves instead of trying to do a good job. The Statue of Liberty—the symbol of our freedom—is no longer free to be entered. It takes two separate passes through security to even go on the pedestal, and there's nothing but a ferry ride between the two checkpoints. We're definitely in a sorry state of affairs. I hope that you at least see that.

I think another huge problem with us is that we're supposed to be the United States, but we're not really united. We really should be more of a national society. My state shouldn't have different traffic laws than any other. We shouldn't have different driver's licenses. Of course, I'd also like a VAT and an end to the IRS (as it's not actually a government institution and income tax isn't written in law). Now you probably think I'm crazy, but it's a lot better in Europe. One only has to look at how presidential elections are held in France, for example—it actually makes sense—or the state of healthcare in the US vs. other countries.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if California cracked down on telecoms for improperly advertising their speeds. California actually seems to want to protect it's consumers, unlike any other state in the union or the federal government.

We're really in a sad state. Of course we go through periods where everything the government does is stupid. And each country has it's own political follies. But really, I think we might be approaching an all time low, except compared to the great depression. But that also affected the rest of the world.

Anyway, how'd we get into this talk?

Our internet sucks, but it really doesn't matter because 10Mbps is overkill for most servers. That 3G iPhone better be out soon damnit. Maybe we'll get lucky and it'll be out tomorrow. One can dream.

Ok - fair enough. I should have called them mis-informed rather than stupid. As far as how the Clinton administration had a plan for no debt that was assuming the tech boom continued and consumer spending kept going crazy. The president actually has very little impact on a recession and there's always going to be an ebb and flow to the economy. It was only natural for the economy to adjust itself after the tech boom.

Also, if you want to go back to a single moment in time when our country was on the verge of being United it was during the Clinton administration. Time had a pretty lengthy article about how Clinton and Gingrich were this close to fixing SS and then the Monica thing happened and it polarized the entire nation and thrust morality to the fore front of the White House and sharply divided those who think sexual morality doesn't have anything to do with the White House and those who think morality speaks volumes about you as a person (and by extension, as a President). So, way to go Monica!! :p

The strange thing about all of this is all of the things that normally spur economic growth (war, decreased taxes) aren't really doing that much and it's throwing everyone for a loop. The single largest factor is the cost of oil that is overly inflated because that money grubbing neighbor or yours insists on buying oil futures on the market and screwing his/her fellow 300 million Americans (and by extension everyone else in the world).

But yeah, iPhone, 3G, 60 days (or is it 57 now?), GPS?, 2nd Camera(front facing)?, OLED?, 32GB?

If it's a yes to all of those I'll give my iPhone to a friend and buy that one! (There's me helping to spur the economy! :)
 
I cant wait for the new iPhone 3G to be available. I hope the 3G iPhone has some new hardware features like

1. real GPS
2. Bluetooth with A2DP (stereo sound)
3. Longer battery life
4. iPhone keyboard attachment (or new iPhone design to include keyboard)

I dont think 3G will live up to the hype in the US. If you look at AT&T's data networks; most of the US is on Edge and certain cities like Camden NJ, San Francisco, CA or NYC, NY are covered with 3G (also known as HSPDA).
 
Umm Cern didn't create the web it was initially invented by the military for communications purposes. Cern may have developed a super fast internet type... thing, but something like that definitely won't be wide spread without revolutionizing computers. There is another internet called internet 2 that is more promising than the seemingly sci-fi internet your refering to that offers something like 3Gb/s or something like that I haven't seen the site in awhile. this internet is actually functional but requires high monthly rates and its utilized by universities and rich people.

Actually, I2 is only allowed to be used by Universities right now. My University had it, and to even think of using it, you had to write a proposal for a project.
 
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