Motorola 7457 in Q4 2003

[3.1416]

Re: Premature especulation?

Originally posted by AidenShaw
my IBM salesman is saying that the PPC970 in IBM's own blades won't be available until very late cyQ3 or cyQ4 !!!

That is actually good news. Apple has almost certainly arranged to introduce 970 Macs before IBM introduces their blades. Which I'm sure is fine with IBM; being more conservative they'll be happy to let Apple be the guinea pig. So if the salesman's statement is accurate, it indicates that Apple will be shipping 970 Macs by September at the very latest, and likely earlier.

 

[AidenShaw]

Read my lips - no PPC970 PowerMacs

_____________________

If Steve Jobs speaks words to this effect at WWDC, it'll be the biggest disturbance in the Force since Alec Guiness had to take a seat on the Millenium Falcon.

I'm amazed at the faith y'all have in a fabric that's been woven from the threads of a few rumours.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by 3.1416
That is actually good news. Apple has almost certainly arranged to introduce 970 Macs before IBM introduces their blades. Which I'm sure is fine with IBM; being more conservative they'll be happy to let Apple be the guinea pig. So if the salesman's statement is accurate, it indicates that Apple will be shipping 970 Macs by September at the very latest, and likely earlier.

It'll be before September for sure. Apple's got to at least ship low-speed models by late July/early August. The reason is quite simple: Nobody in their right mind is going to buy a Powermac G4 after the 970 is announced.

Apple can't take such a hit to their sales for more than about a month. Of course, Powermacs aren't selling that well to begin with (thanks to the fine folks at Motorola), but in this economy Apple can't risk a big stock loss (especially after those sweet iTMS gains...). This whole timing issue is probably one of the factors in the delay of the WWDC.

 

[job]

Re: Read my lips - no PPC970 PowerMacs

Originally posted by AidenShaw
If Steve Jobs speaks words to this effect at WWDC, it'll be the biggest disturbance in the Force since Alec Guiness had to take a seat on the Millenium Falcon.

"It is as if a million voices cried out..."

I'm amazed at the faith y'all have in a fabric that's been woven from the threads of a few rumours.

It reminds me of the whole "iPods next Tuesday" rumors from January. People seem to believe in something rumored so much that they convince themselves that it is real.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
If Steve Jobs speaks words to this effect at WWDC, it'll be the biggest disturbance in the Force since Alec Guiness had to take a seat on the Millenium Falcon.

I'm amazed at the faith y'all have in a fabric that's been woven from the threads of a few rumours.

There's plenty of facts - along with a whole bunch of rumors - behing Powermac 970 talk. Don't just think that all 970 speculation leads back to MacBidouille.

Here's an example, why else would IBM seeming graph an AltiVec unit on to the 970? They don't need it. Apple does.

BTW, I think Obi Wan took that seat, though (all for the greater good of the universe, too). But I'm more of a Star Trek person.

 

[yzedf]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
There's plenty of facts - along with a whole bunch of rumors - behing Powermac 970 talk. Don't just think that all 970 speculation leads back to MacBidouille.

Here's an example, why else would IBM seeming graph an AltiVec unit on to the 970? They don't need it. Apple does.

BTW, I think Obi Wan took that seat, though (all for the greater good of the universe, too). But I'm more of a Star Trek person.

Blade servers (true use of the 970) use the Altivec just fine. IBM is a firm believer in the "cya" mentality. They would not produce something as involved as the 970 solely for Apple.

As for needing Altivec, if the proc had been designed properly to begin with (G4 I mean) than there would have been no need for it. Suddenly you don't need special apps. Altivec is a kludgey add-on to compensate for poor design. The fact that all apps are not Altivec aware seems to prove this. Same for dual proc systems, the single proc is to weak to keep up with single proc Pentium 3/4 systems.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Hey, lighten up guys & gals

I think this is great news for Apple. They need some faster chips to upgrade the eMac, iMac & PowerBook (I think they'll stick to a faster 750FX for the iBook, for now). Hopefully, Motorola will actually deliver these chips within a reasonable amount of time. That's the BIG if.

Personally, I don't think we'll see PPC 970 PowerBooks this summer. Three reasons:
a) The PPC 970 requires some pretty fancy motherboard architecturing. Doing it in laptop dimensions is even more complicated.
b) The PowerBooks, at the moment, are still pretty competitive (speed-wise) with Wintel laptops. Apple doesn't need (marketing-wise) to supercharge them right now. I don't think we'll see the 970 in PowerBooks before at least January.
c) The PowerMac and XServe lines are really suffering from lack of speed at the moment. They're being ridiculed by Intel/AMD boxes running Windows or Linux. I'm only talking speed here. Apple still obviously has the upper hand in user interface. This is where Apple needs to concentrate their efforts first. They have limited resources, and can't do everything at once.

I think (hope! hehe) that if they announce a 64-bit aware OS, and PPC 970 PowerMacs & XServes at WWDC, I'll be very happy and impressed. 970 PowerBooks in 6 months, and they've got their edge back.

So I think a faster lower-power G4 would really help Apple at the moment. They could stick it in the PowerBooks, until they have the time/money to redesign them for 64-bit. And as for the consumer lines, I really don't see the need to put such a powerful processor in those. The G4 is plenty fast for the average consumer. I see the eMac/iMac/iBook staying 32-bit for quite a while still. Maybe with 1.5 to 2 GHz 750GXs... Or even better, a 750GX+Altivec (760GX?) Already overkill for the needs of the average consumer.

 

[Hattig]

Originally posted by yzedf
As for needing Altivec, if the proc had been designed properly to begin with (G4 I mean) than there would have been no need for it. Suddenly you don't need special apps. Altivec is a kludgey add-on to compensate for poor design. The fact that all apps are not Altivec aware seems to prove this. Same for dual proc systems, the single proc is to weak to keep up with single proc Pentium 3/4 systems.

This shows an astonishing lack of knowledge regarding the uses for a vector processing unit on a processor for a system that is used a lot for media work. The fact that the units are useful for other work is simply another benefit.

Altivec is regarded to be one of the better designs of vector unit in consumer processors as well. It certainly isn't kludgy.

What is kludgy is that the G4 has 3 of these Altivec units, but no-where near enough bandwidth to actually make good use out of them.

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

insanely great mac points to the same article and they point out that the 1.25 and 1.42 were overclocked g4 1 gigers. They also mention that the 7457 will clock at up to 1.3 ghz. so does this mean it will be ok to overclock them to 1.5 or 1.6??? I allways thought that was the case and proves again why apple should dump motorola.

 

[ddtlm]

yzedf:

As for needing Altivec, if the proc had been designed properly to begin with (G4 I mean) than there would have been no need for it. Suddenly you don't need special apps.

Rubbish. AltiVec provides a very efficient way of doing certain specialized work and is a very viable alternative to gobs of scalar units paired with massive superscalar and out-of-order execution abilities (ala Athlon). Even the PPC970 will benefit from AltiVec, although it won't need it to perform well.

Altivec is a kludgey add-on to compensate for poor design. The fact that all apps are not Altivec aware seems to prove this.

This proves nothing. I could write a program that is not "floating point aware" and clearly floating point would not be rendered a kludge by my actions.

 

[ddtlm]

Hattig:

What is kludgy is that the G4 has 3 of these Altivec units, but no-where near enough bandwidth to actually make good use out of them.

4 of them, actually.

 

[Hattig]

Re: Hey, lighten up guys & gals

Originally posted by ZeeOwl

Personally, I don't think we'll see PPC 970 PowerBooks this summer. Three reasons:
a) The PPC 970 requires some pretty fancy motherboard architecturing. Doing it in laptop dimensions is even more complicated.

The 970 is 25mm by 25mm in size, and doesn't use L3 cache. That is smaller than the G4 with off-die L3 cache that is in the 15" and 17" PB. A low voltage version running at 1GHz or 1.2GHz should be easily possible - the only issue would be regarding power saving technology, and whether it is implemented in the 970.

The FSB should be a doddle to implement, it only has to connect the processor to the northbridge.

b) The PowerBooks, at the moment, are still pretty competitive (speed-wise) with Wintel laptops. Apple doesn't need (marketing-wise) to supercharge them right now. I don't think we'll see the 970 in PowerBooks before at least January.

I disagree. Apart from the sexiness factor of the Apple laptops, they aren't competitive speed-wise with Intel/AMD based laptops which are both into the 2GHz range now, or 1.7GHz for the Pentium-M which is used in slim notebooks.

c) The PowerMac and XServe lines are really suffering from lack of speed at the moment. They're being ridiculed by Intel/AMD boxes running Windows or Linux. I'm only talking speed here. Apple still obviously has the upper hand in user interface. This is where Apple needs to concentrate their efforts first. They have limited resources, and can't do everything at once.

Agreed, this area really needs looking at. Servers don't need a good user interface, and they don't need to look sexy. They need to get the job done. I'm sure that 970 based machines for both these systems will be produced in time. I'm also sure that there is enough resources to get a PowerBook design out as well.

So I think a faster lower-power G4 would really help Apple at the moment. They could stick it in the PowerBooks, until they have the time/money to redesign them for 64-bit. And as for the consumer lines, I really don't see the need to put such a powerful processor in those. The G4 is plenty fast for the average consumer. I see the eMac/iMac/iBook staying 32-bit for quite a while still. Maybe with 1.5 to 2 GHz 750GXs... Or even better, a 750GX+Altivec (760GX?) Already overkill for the needs of the average consumer.

You missed the part about these faster, lower power cheaper G4's not arriving until Q4 of this year.

And the average consumer might only need a 1GHz G4, but they will WANT a much faster machine. Don't make that simple mistake. Apple need to make a machine that people want.

 

[3.1416]

Re: Re: Read my lips - no PPC970 PowerMacs

Originally posted by job
People seem to believe in something rumored so much that they convince themselves that it is real.

The 970 is real. Nobody seriously disputes that Apple will use it. The only relevant question is when Apple can ship them, and plenty of circumstantial evidence points to sooner rather than later.

 

[AidenShaw]

Apple is silencing IBM? Haha!

Originally posted by 3.1416
The 970 is real.

Real vaporware, you mean. Certainly it's been announced, with presentations at semiconductor conferences.

In real life, though, it's MIA - and AWOL.

Note this story from February:

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2131244,00.html

IBM pumps PowerPC up to 2.5GHz
15:24 Friday 28th February 2003
Matthew Broersma

At CeBIT next month, IBM will show off some of its latest technology -including its next-generation PowerPC 970 chip that eventually will reach 2.5GHz speeds and could soon appear in Apple computers

IBM is to show off a prototype of its PowerPC 970 processor at the CeBIT trade show next month, the company said. The speedy chip, expected to arrive on the market in the second half of this year and reach 2.5GHz speeds in a future incarnation, will benefit certain types of servers, but also desktop systems -- with Apple a likely customer.

IBM is planning to demonstrate a blade server running on the PowerPC 970, a prototype from its development laboratory in Boblingen, Germany. The PowerPC 970 is targeted to the low-end server and desktop markets, but is derived from IBM's Power4 chip, used in higher-end servers.

Well, CeBIT came and went - but no PPC970 showed up. Yet the rumour boards have people claiming that it's trouncing shipping chips from Intel.... Every bit of "news" from MacB is eagerly digested, and added to the growing "970 myth".

And, about that Apple angle - if you really think that Apple is behind an IBM blackout on news about this chip - why did Apple allow IBM to give those papers at the conferences? Doesn't make sense....

I'm inclined to believe my IBM salesman, and believe that the chips just aren't ready yet. Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll learn that my IBM salesman has been feeding me a line, but if that happens he'll lose most of my business (except for AIX, I don't need IBM hardware...).

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Well, CeBIT came and went - but no PPC970 showed up. Yet the rumour boards have people claiming that it's trouncing shipping chips from Intel.... Every bit of "news" from MacB is eagerly digested, and added to the growing "970 myth".

And, about that Apple angle - if you really think that Apple is behind an IBM blackout on news about this chip - why did Apple allow IBM to give those papers at the conferences? Doesn't make sense....

I'm inclined to believe my IBM salesman, and believe that the chips just aren't ready yet. Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll learn that my IBM salesman has been feeding me a line, but if that happens he'll lose most of my business (except for AIX, I don't need IBM hardware...).

Have you ever considered the idea that your IBM salesman might not have access to highly sensitive trade secrets?

Anyway, you keep acting as if MacBidouille is the only source for 970 rumors. They aren't! And I don't know anyone who's blindly putting 100% of their faith with MacBidouille's rumors. They sound a little fishy, but interesting nevertheless, to me. I definitely don't think Apple's making an Xstation or bringing back the desktop server. If MacBidouille's info is right, it's just the motherboard for a new Xserve (IF...)

Also, I'm not expecting a 2+ GHz 970. Sure, I'd be wildly thrilled if Apple announced such a clock speed, but I don't think they will. 970s at such speeds are still in development. Right now, Fishkill is only putting together slower 970s (i.e. 1.2 to 1.8 GHz).

Here's an idea: Maybe IBM's holding back on the 970 because they want it at faster clock speeds, like 2.5 GHz. Those processors aren't ready though, so IBM is waiting and letting Apple snatch up the slower ones.

Apple would probably love to wait for a 2+ GHz 970 too, but Steve knows that he doesn't have the luxury of time. We need faster processors, and we need them now (to hell with Motorola!).

 

[soggywulf]

Re: Hey, lighten up guys & gals

Originally posted by ZeeOwl
Or even better, a 750GX+Altivec (760GX?) Already overkill for the needs of the average consumer.

The "average consumer" buys a PC. They are much faster, have far more apps and games, and most people couldn't care less between the GUIs of OSX and XP (unix? what's that?). And if the average consumer has a kid that plays one or two games (not exactly unlikely), the iMac/eMac/etc will struggle pathetically with any modern game...while a PC for about $1000 will be fine.

So let us not be blinded by our love...the current Macs are in fact severely underpowered for their price across the line, and there is no such thing as "overkill" for any consumer, average or otherwise. If more performance can be had for the same price, who are we to tell the buyer "Oh, you don't need the extra power, buy the Mac instead"? Then why are we so excited about 970s?

 

[BenRoethig]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
Looks like there is a possiblity that the top PowerMac may end up with the XC7457, DDR400 memory, 200MHz FSB, and possibly USB2 this round of speed bumps.

Whether it's 1.75 or 1.5 GHz 7457s PowerMacs sporting a modified case, it's not what people are expecting.

---

And the only reason I'm saying this is the 7455 Rev 3.3s made it into the top PowerMac 1.42, and it's just hitting volume production shipments this month for everyone else.

You know Motorola didn't say anything about the XC7457, only the MPC7457 embedded processor. Motorla may have stopped desktop development with the XC7455

 

[job]

Re: Re: Re: Read my lips - no PPC970 PowerMacs

Originally posted by 3.1416
The 970 is real. Nobody seriously disputes that Apple will use it. The only relevant question is when Apple can ship them, and plenty of circumstantial evidence points to sooner rather than later.

Sure, circumstantial evidence points to the possibility of a 970 based Mac, but there is no hard evidence that Apple will use the 970. No press release, no official announcement, nada. Just rumors, rumors that cannot be confirmed or denied. Remember how everyone though the G5 was right around the corner? The only difference between the G5 rumors and the 970 rumors is that we know the 970 is an actual, planned chip. Who knows where the G5 stuff came from.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see a 970 based Mac, but I think a vast majority of Mac users are setting themselves up for a vast dissappointment if the 970s are not released/announced at the WWDC

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

I think if apple doesnt announce a new powermac at WWDC they are going to be the one dissappointed with lack lustersales.

 

[AidenShaw]

IBM knows that customers don't like surprises

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Have you ever considered the idea that your IBM salesman might not have access to highly sensitive trade secrets?

On the contrary - IBM is very good about sharing product futures with their sales force and customers. They know that I need to budget my purchases each year, and that I need to forecast what is coming when in order to do that.

IBM knows that if they surprise me with something new - that I won't have any money to buy it!

That's why they're telling me when to expect POWER5 systems, and what roughly to expect to pay for them. That's why they're telling me when the faster Xeons and Xeon MP systems will be out - when the last order date for upgrades for my x440 is and when the x440 replacement will be shipping.

And that's also why I'm hearing that cyQ4 is when the PPC970 will be shipping.... It won't be available before then....

 

[Dont Hurt Me]

Lets hope not ,Apple needs a faster cpu by a large margin this qtr.

 

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
On the contrary - IBM is very good about sharing product futures with their sales force and customers. They know that I need to budget my purchases each year, and that I need to forecast what is coming when in order to do that.

IBM knows that if they surprise me with something new - that I won't have any money to buy it!

That's why they're telling me when to expect POWER5 systems, and what roughly to expect to pay for them. That's why they're telling me when the faster Xeons and Xeon MP systems will be out - when the last order date for my x440 upgrades in and when the x440 replacement will be shipping.

And that's also why I'm hearing that cyQ4 is when the PPC970 will be shipping....

Yeah, your salesperson knows all about IBM's plans. Not Apple's.

In fact, if he did know (which I doubt he does), he'd have no reason to tell you. Can you imagine this guy walking up to you and saying: "We're not producing a 970 server until later this year, but Apple's got one coming real soon!" That's a business move as sound as Microsoft launching an ad campaign telling people to switch to Macs (that would be sweet, though).

And, once again, there's a whole host of reasons why IBM is waiting longer. Here are a couple possibilities.
1. IBM's holding out for 2 GHz + clock speeds.
2. Faster chips haven't entered production yet.
3. They want to wait for some market reason (there are dozens of possibilities there).
4. Motherboards aren't ready, or
5. Some other major part isn't ready.

Come on, "Because IBM isn't shipping 970 servers until Q4" isn't a good reason to say that Apple isn't shipping Powermac 970s next month (and I suppose I shouldn't even get you started on the Powerbook...).

Sure, the Powermac 970 is one part rumor. But it's also one part fact and one part common sense.

 

[ddtlm]

My guess is still for an announcement in September, and no PMac changes prior to that. It would not surprise me if Apple shipped systems somewhat before IBM does, do to the desperation factor at Apple which IBM could transform into nice fat profits.

 

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
I think if apple doesnt announce a new powermac at WWDC they are going to be the one dissappointed with lack lustersales.

Agreed.

 

[3.1416]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
And, once again, there's a whole host of reasons why IBM is waiting longer. Here are a couple possibilities.

The most likely possibility is that Apple's agreement with IBM says that they get the initial shipments. If that's the case, then IBM shipping 970 blades late Q3/early Q4 is consistent with Apple announcing 970 Macs at WWDC and shipping them a month or so later.

Originally posted by job
there is no hard evidence that Apple will use the 970

Technically true, but they'd be complete idiots not to.