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SuperMatt

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Recently, a couple threads I had an interest in were moved to Political News and PRSI. These threads didn’t start as political, but a couple of posters came in and intentionally pushed the discussion into politics. Instead of deleting the politically-charged comments, the entire thread was moved to a political forum. For those who do not have privileges to post in a political thread, or who simply wish to avoid political threads, it feels quite unfair to suddenly be excluded from a thread due to the actions of people breaking the rules.

A couple bad apples come in, and instead of deleting their posts and warning them against it, they are rewarded by having the thread moved to a political area, and others are now excluded from that thread.

I would prefer that the threads started in non-political forums be policed by removing the political comments and warning the offenders instead of moving the entire thread into politics-land.
 

SuperMatt

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This thread is covid and mask related, so its placement in the PRSI makes total sense.


This is a News thread with references to Black History month, I would say given that, it also belongs in the PRSI forum.
I don’t believe safety measures at a retail store has to be political, and discussion of the Black History Month videos needn’t be political either.

Either way, if the discussion started in a non-political forum, shouldn’t all posters avoid politics instead of making political posts and expecting the thread to get moved? It feels to me that there is an expectation if one wants to make a thread political, one can go ahead and do so, and instead of being moderated, the thread will simply be moved to PRSI or Political News.
 

icanhazmac

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Apr 11, 2018
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I don’t believe

You seem to make a lot of threads complaining about how MR is moderated, perhaps you would be a happier person starting your own Apple themed site where you can manage the forums to your liking?

Threads can slide into Political, Religious or Social quite easily without going off topic or going off the rails, I don't see any problem with the mods moving a thread that has crossed into that realm to the PRSI section. I happily filter that section out but I am more that happy to allow others that area to interact on those topics. In general I find MR moderated quite well, I don't agree with everything but that's life.

Like it or not with almost 8 billion humans on the planet there are bound to be people that think differently than you do, live with it or move on to a place where you will be happy. Just because you don't believe X topic belongs in X area doesn't mean that you are right.
 

SuperMatt

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Mar 28, 2002
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You seem to make a lot of threads complaining about how MR is moderated, perhaps you would be a happier person starting your own Apple themed site where you can manage the forums to your liking?

Threads can slide into Political, Religious or Social quite easily without going off topic or going off the rails, I don't see any problem with the mods moving a thread that has crossed into that realm to the PRSI section. I happily filter that section out but I am more that happy to allow others that area to interact on those topics. In general I find MR moderated quite well, I don't agree with everything but that's life.

Like it or not with almost 8 billion humans on the planet there are bound to be people that think differently than you do, live with it or move on to a place where you will be happy. Just because you don't believe X topic belongs in X area doesn't mean that you are right.
I would have preferred you exclude your first paragraph there and stick to discussing the topic instead of making a judgment on what might make me happy as a person. I don’t believe you know enough about me to make such a determination.

As for paragraphs 2 and 3, I understand your point of view. I don’t agree with it though, because people know the rules and they know there are political forums in which to discuss political things. If they are in a non-political thread, they should control themselves. They could start a separate thread in PRSI to discuss the topic, for example. That’s a win-win.

The SFF is a place for us to give our feedback and suggestions. Sharing my concerns and thoughts makes me happy; and I am trying to do so in a respectful way. Sometimes the mods will agree, sometimes not. I’m ok with that too. Thanks for your thoughts.
 

icanhazmac

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Apr 11, 2018
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I would have preferred you exclude your first paragraph there and stick to discussing the topic instead of making a judgment on what might make me happy as a person. I don’t believe you know enough about me to make such a determination.

Its just that you seem to be involved in a lot of threads complaining about moderation at MR. If I felt the need to complain that much about something I felt that strongly about I would be looking for greener pastures, YMMV.

I wholeheartedly agree that you can and should voice your opinion but it seems that the same 5-10 members are always complaining about the moderation at MR and don't seem to getting anywhere as they are all still complaining, thread, after thread, after thread.

Sharing my concerns and thoughts makes me happy

Enjoy.

I don’t agree with it though, because people know the rules and they know there are political forums in which to discuss political things.

There are no rules stating that a member cannot respond to any given thread or topic with a response that could move the thread to PRSI as long as it follows all other rules. Ex: Any thread involving Apple's manufacturing partners in China is bound to end up in PRSI even if the topic of the thread was: New Foxconn factory in China is painted blue. The first response is going to be "what, no communist red?" and off to PRSI we go.

P.S.

A couple bad apples come in, and instead of deleting their posts and warning them against it, they are rewarded by having the thread moved to a political area, and others are now excluded from that thread.

Do you really believe that getting a thread moved to PRSI is a reward for other members here? That is a really odd sport if true.
 
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SuperMatt

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There are no rules stating that a member cannot respond to any given thread or topic with a response that could move the thread to PRSI as long as it follows all other rules. Ex: Any thread involving Apple's manufacturing partners in China is bound to end up in PRSI even if the topic of the thread was: New Foxconn factory in China is painted blue. The first response is going to be "what, no communist red?" and off to PRSI we go.
Read the “instantly bannable offenses,” item 10. Also read “things not to do” item 6. Nobody should be posting political things in areas other than PRSI or Political News. In your hypothetical example, the person who made the remark about communism should be warned that they are violating the rules… in my reading of the rules.
 

I7guy

macrumors Nehalem
Nov 30, 2013
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Gotta be in it to win it
The mods and staff have also gone on record by saying (I'm paraphrasing) a thread is evaluated to understand the most suitable place, ie, the news feed or political news, based on the amount of political chatter and moderation resources that could be necessary to keep the thread on-topic.

Additionally, it's my feeling it doesn't take much to get a thread moved from a non-political forum to PRSI, if there is a whiff of becoming political in nature.
 

Juicy Box

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2014
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You seem to make a lot of threads complaining about how MR is moderated, perhaps you would be a happier person starting your own Apple themed site where you can manage the forums to your liking?
Its just that you seem to be involved in a lot of threads complaining about moderation at MR. If I felt the need to complain that much about something I felt that strongly about I would be looking for greener pastures
I disagree with this.

That is similar to people with posts responding to complaints about Apple devices saying to "switch to Windows", or "buy an Android phone then". I have been a long time Apple user and a long time fan, but I will not hesitate to bring up a problem if I feel like Apple is doing something wrong with their products. Being a user of MR, I think the OP should have the same privilege with the forum rules.

If the OP has a valid complaint about how the forum is moderated, or points out a problem with a forum rule, then why not point it out.

I think what the OP brings up in this thread is an unintended consequence of the new forum rules removing access to the PRSI forum to new users.


As some people have already pointed out, topics can easily be politicized, then moving it to the PRSI forum leaves out people that don't have access.


IMO, the OP has a valid concern, participating in a thread that started out non-PRSI, but then having access to that thread removed because of people making it a PRSI thread.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,308
43,134
shouldn’t all posters avoid politics instead of making political posts and expecting the thread to get moved?
We actually moderate posts that are PRSI in the open forum rather then move threads to the PRSI.

The two threads you mentioned were definitely PRSI in nature, it doesn't matter if the thread starter (or even the editors) started the thread in the open forum, if the topic is Social Issues (and the mask wearing debate most certainly is a social issue), then it should come to no surprise to see PRSI type posts being posted in the open forum. Since that topic is PRSI it made more sense to move that thread instead of wholesale post removal which would have destroyed the very fabric of the discussion (which was PRSI in nature anyways). To put it another way, it made more sense to move a PRSI topic that was posted in the open forum to the PRSI forum instead deleting a high volume of posts.

I get that by moving the thread to the PRSI it locks out a number of users from participating, given their inability to access the PRSI. Because of that, the decision to move doesn't come lightly.

I disagree with the sentiment that the staff just moves threads to the PRSI just because a number of people broke the rules and it was easier. In fact we have specific reminders for people posting PRSI outside the open forum and many folks have gotten that friendly message specific to that violation - instead of us just moving a thread.
 

ericgtr12

macrumors 68000
Mar 19, 2015
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You seem to make a lot of threads complaining about how MR is moderated, perhaps you would be a happier person starting your own Apple themed site where you can manage the forums to your liking?

Threads can slide into Political, Religious or Social quite easily without going off topic or going off the rails, I don't see any problem with the mods moving a thread that has crossed into that realm to the PRSI section. I happily filter that section out but I am more that happy to allow others that area to interact on those topics. In general I find MR moderated quite well, I don't agree with everything but that's life.

Like it or not with almost 8 billion humans on the planet there are bound to be people that think differently than you do, live with it or move on to a place where you will be happy. Just because you don't believe X topic belongs in X area doesn't mean that you are right.
I would argue that those circling this forum waiting to pounce on those who offer a differing view have little room to tell people to leave if they don't like it. Perhaps if one doesn't like the fact that there is a feedback forum for the very purpose of providing feedback, they should start their own forum where such conversation isn't allowed.

Both of the threads cited here were started around Apple products and devolved into off-topic political discussion, instead of addressing the problem posters staff decided to just dump it into their cesspool forum and wash their hands of it. That's their call but it's hardly fair to those who simply wanted to talk about the topics they started that had nothing to do with politics.
 

icanhazmac

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Apr 11, 2018
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I would argue that those circling this forum waiting to pounce on those who offer a differing view have little room to tell people to leave if they don't like it. Perhaps if one doesn't like the fact that there is a feedback forum for the very purpose of providing feedback, they should start their own forum where such conversation isn't allowed.

My comments were for those that are constantly at odds with the moderation here at MR. At some point you just have to come to the conclusion that you might be the problem, not MR.

As I stated above:

I wholeheartedly agree that you can and should voice your opinion but it seems that the same 5-10 members are always complaining about the moderation at MR and don't seem to getting anywhere as they are all still complaining, thread, after thread, after thread.

I am not asking anyone to leave, I am just saying that if you are so unhappy here at MR start your own site or find another that better suits your sensabilities.
 
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0920872

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Its just that you seem to be involved in a lot of threads complaining about moderation at MR. If I felt the need to complain that much about something I felt that strongly about I would be looking for greener pastures, YMMV.

I wholeheartedly agree that you can and should voice your opinion but it seems that the same 5-10 members are always complaining about the moderation at MR and don't seem to getting anywhere as they are all still complaining, thread, after thread, after thread.
You heavily underestimate that pool, but that's secondary to modding itself (hint, bans), LOL.

We actually moderate posts that are PRSI in the open forum rather then move threads to the PRSI.

The two threads you mentioned were definitely PRSI in nature, it doesn't matter if the thread starter (or even the editors) started the thread in the open forum, if the topic is Social Issues (and the mask wearing debate most certainly is a social issue), then it should come to no surprise to see PRSI type posts being posted in the open forum. Since that topic is PRSI it made more sense to move that thread instead of wholesale post removal which would have destroyed the very fabric of the discussion (which was PRSI in nature anyways). To put it another way, it made more sense to move a PRSI topic that was posted in the open forum to the PRSI forum instead deleting a high volume of posts.

I get that by moving the thread to the PRSI it locks out a number of users from participating, given their inability to access the PRSI. Because of that, the decision to move doesn't come lightly.

I disagree with the sentiment that the staff just moves threads to the PRSI just because a number of people broke the rules and it was easier. In fact we have specific reminders for people posting PRSI outside the open forum and many folks have gotten that friendly message specific to that violation - instead of us just moving a thread.
My impression has been that this site's general approach to COVID misinformation is to shove it in PRSI. (Never ever ever seen a COVID fake news post moderated here, which of course could be because you guys are doing it super efficiently, LOL). Wanna push a topic to PRSI? Just pull some COVID BS and jackpot.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,593
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In a coffee shop.
My comments were for those that are constantly at odds with the moderation here at MR. At some point you just have to come to the conclusion that you might be the problem, not MR.

As I stated above:



I am not asking anyone to leave, I am just saying that if you are so unhappy here at MR start your own site or find another that better suits your sensabilities.

From what I can gather, - please feel free to offer an alternative perspective if I am in error - the SFF exists (or is supposed to exist) to provide feedback and raise issues in, or on, or about, the site that may be of a cause for concern to members.

Therefore, to criticise the bona fides of those who post threads here, - raising issues of concern - may be to miss the point somewhat.

As in PRSI itself, I assume that one should address the issues, not the bona fides of the poster who raised them, unless you have reason to believ that such issues may have been raised in bad faith, and even that, is a presumption too far.

Moreover, while this site seems to warmly welcome the enthusiastic participation of forum members in policing (or enforcing), or monitoring the rules, - which can be very useful elsewhere in the vast valleys and immense spaces of the forum - nevertheless, - and, above all, - specifically, in this particular section of the forum, which seems to be reserved for discussion of the rules, as well as discussion of how these rules may be applied to the content of posts and threads, it may prove less of a distraction if voices (and pens) preemptively purporting to state - or interpret - what the rules are, (irrespective of however so elastic these rules may appear to be on occasion), are limited to those who have actually been appointed as mods.

Personally, I would like to see a situation where the issues raised in the threads of this particular section of the forum can be discussed without questioning the bona fides of the Original Poster.
 
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tobefirst ⚽️

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Jan 24, 2005
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It would be helpful if the staff were at least consistent about Covid threads. As it stands, there are four threads with "Covid" or "coronavirus" in the title on the first page of the Community forum. Is Covid a political/social issue or is it not?

And if it isn't *always* a political/social issue, then @SuperMatt has a point – why is it being decided later whether it was political or not based on where it went, rather than where it started. That is, if it started as a non-political/social thread, then it should continue and be moderated that way.
 

ericgtr12

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Mar 19, 2015
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My comments were for those that are constantly at odds with the moderation here at MR. At some point you just have to come to the conclusion that you might be the problem, not MR.
Fair enough, and I've done exactly what you asked Matt to do. However, this forum is for feedback and a place for people to call out what they view as a systemic issue when it comes to allowed racism and veiled hate speech on this site. Whether we agree or not, that's what this forum is for.

It would be nice if MR actually addressed the issue instead of penalizing the posters in this regard. For example, one could say "Giving up the seat was about common courtesy, Rosa" and as it was not targeting a specific user or breaking the rules, is allowed. If one were to respond "Hey, you're being racist" then action would be taken against that user. This is where they problem lies with MR's handling of these situations IMO, they only look at what a technicality is and not the entire picture.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Jul 29, 2008
63,593
46,070
In a coffee shop.
You heavily underestimate that pool, but that's secondary to modding itself (hint, bans), LOL.


My impression has been that this site's general approach to COVID misinformation is to shove it in PRSI. (Never ever ever seen a COVID fake news post moderated here, which of course could be because you guys are doing it super efficiently, LOL). Wanna push a topic to PRSI? Just pull some COVID BS and jackpot.
Well said.

Re masks, and where such discussions should take place:

I must respectfully disagree with @maflynn: Yes, masks may be considered "a social issue", but, so is drinking coffee, reading books, listening to music, all of which are discussed - without controversy, or dispays of online ill-temper, - in the "Community" section of this forum.

The peculiar (political) and socio-economic culture of the United States has ensured that the wearing of masks is not just thought of as a health issue, a public policy issue, or, for that matter, as a "social issue", - all of which could be dealt with more than adequately, in the "community" section - but, unfortunately, has become yet another fault line in the wider fractured culture of the US.

As a European, I might add that nowhere in Europe does this (mask wearing) give rise to such stark societal differences, disagreements and disputes to anything like the same extent.

It is this - the controversy that attends the wearing of masks, and the consequent clash of the supposed value systems (political, social, cultural) of those who choose to wear them, and those who decide not to do so, - that makes a discussion of masks so fraught.

But that - because this is literally a matter of life and death - is something that I would argue mods should police, or monitor, in a "news" or "community" thread, rather than shovel it off to PRSI where it can be safely submerged and drowned in the foam of the frothy nonsense of what has come to be described as "fake news".

Notwithstanding the above, I fear that this is an area on which we may have to agree to differ.
 
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icanhazmac

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Apr 11, 2018
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From what I can gather, - please feel free to offer an alternative perspective if I am in error - the SFF exists (or is supposed to exist) to provide feedback and raise issues in, or on, or about, the site that may of be a cause for concern to members.

You are 100% correct and I reflected that in my post. As a member who thinks MR is generally run and moderated well I was merely expressing an opinion response to the OP who posts here regularly to complain about moderation and suggesting that the issue here is with him and not with the site/mods.

Question: how many times do you complain about the same thing and get no results before you just move on? Apparently some peoples appetite for this is far greater than mine. If I truly felt that any site/forum was a haven for ideas and thoughts that ran counter to my core beliefs I would just leave. The intarwebz are a big place, I'm sure places exist that would not offend the OP so much.

However, this forum is for feedback and a place for people to call out what they view as a systemic issue when it comes to allowed racism and veiled hate speech on this site.

Again, perhaps the issue is with how you define the above issues and your personal sensitivity levels. MR is moderated by a team that reports to someone, if the team fails to see an issue then perhaps you are the issue and if it bothers you so maybe you just move on.

We all have a scale of how we interpret things and how we react to them. You might be extra sensitive as compared to the baseline of the population on certain topics. You are not wrong as personal perceptions cannot be "wrong" but you might need to consider that you might be so easily triggered vs the base line that you just aren't going to get the changes you want.
 
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ericgtr12

macrumors 68000
Mar 19, 2015
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Again, perhaps the issue is with how you define the above issues and your personal sensitivity levels. MR is moderated by a team that reports to someone, if the team fails to see an issue then perhaps you are the issue and if it bothers you so maybe you just move on.
Right, or if we want to say something about it then we post in the feedback forum that they have provided for us. You have just as much of a right to move on as we do, sound advice, heed it.
 

0920872

Cancelled
Nov 3, 2018
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You are 100% correct and I reflected that in my post. As a member who thinks MR is generally run and moderated well I was merely expressing an opinion response to the OP who posts here regularly to complain about moderation and suggesting that the issue here is with him and not with the site/mods.

Question: how many times do you complain about the same thing and get no results before you just move on? Apparently some peoples appetite for this is far greater than mine. If I truly felt that any site/forum was a haven for ideas and thoughts that ran counter to my core beliefs I would just leave. The intarwebz are a big place, I'm sure places exist that would not offend the OP so much.



Again, perhaps the issue is with how you define the above issues and your personal sensitivity levels. MR is moderated by a team that reports to someone, if the team fails to see an issue then perhaps you are the issue and if it bothers you so maybe you just move on.

We all have a scale of how we interpret things and how we react to them. You might be extra sensitive as compared to the baseline of the population on certain topics. You are not wrong as personal perceptions cannot be "wrong" but you might need to consider that you might be so easily triggered vs the base line that you just aren't going to get the changes you want.
LOL. And how many times will YOU repeat your argument about people moving on, without actually getting anybody's mind changed?:)
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
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Right, or if we want to say something about it then we post in the feedback forum that they have provided for us. You have just as much of a right to move on as we do, sound advice, heed it.

The difference is I enjoy my time at MR, you and some others apparently do not as you are regularly triggered by speech so much that you feel the need to complain... a lot. I'll stay right here to offer a counter perspective to how you and the OP feel this site is moderated and run.
 
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Weaselboy

Moderator
Staff member
Jan 23, 2005
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California
It would be helpful if the staff were at least consistent about Covid threads. As it stands, there are four threads with "Covid" or "coronavirus" in the title on the first page of the Community forum. Is Covid a political/social issue or is it not?

And if it isn't *always* a political/social issue, then @SuperMatt has a point – why is it being decided later whether it was political or not based on where it went, rather than where it started. That is, if it started as a non-political/social thread, then it should continue and be moderated that way.
I'll try to explain.

The Community COVID threads you mention do not involve PRSI issues surrounding COVID, so they are allowed in the Community section.

The COVID news threads may or may not involve PRSI issues related to COVID, so it is a judgement call made by the editorial staff where to place the thread.

I agree with @SuperMatt that we should not allow members to railroad a benign news thread into a PRSI free-for-all. If I see a news article that has absolutely no PRSI angle to it, and members intentionally try to take the thread into PRSI territory, I moderate the PRSI posts and leave the thread where it is.

If there is a news thread that does generate PRSI posts, I look at the article and ask myself if it is reasonable to expect members to avoid PRSI posts given the thread topic. If the answer is no, I'll ask the editors to consider moving the thread to Political News.
 
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