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Additionally, those who make such offensive posts fully understand the system of tattling/goading to get those who disagree to break the rules. I'm sorry but the actual context is almost never taken into consideration, just the technicality.
It sounds to me like you think that "if the context is X, then I should be allowed to break the rules."

If you feel goaded, move on and report the post. Your reaction is your responsibility, regardless of whether or not you feel another user is goading you.

Responding with a comment that breaks the rules will only get you in trouble and isn't beneficial to anyone.
 
It sounds to me like you think that "if the context is X, then I should be allowed to break the rules."

If you feel goaded, move on and report the post. Your reaction is your responsibility, regardless of whether or not you feel another user is goading you.

Responding with a comment that breaks the rules will only get you in trouble and isn't beneficial to anyone.
Understood, but the question around allowed racism still wasn't answered. Can you please address it?
 
As long as there's a "there's good and bad people on both sides" mentality this will not change. This site has never addressed these issues directly and people are allowed to sympathize with white supremacy, sexism, etc. as long as they don't break the basic rules and post it using non-offensive language. When one shows outrage, they are then penalized.

At the highest level the leadership of this site is making a deliberate decision to allow such behavior, much of it didn't really come to light until the last few years when this sort of language came out of the woodwork and made it into the mainstream. Times have changed, MR and their rules have not and as a result threads get derailed and cause all sorts of overhead for staff to deal with.

However, for many of us there are areas we can frequent where discussion is less likely to turn political and this site is still great for that. I just turned off PRSI a while back and it's been far more pleasant as a result, I just hate to see these types posts bleeding into basic Apple discussion as well. MR can choose not to allow it at all - in any form - and it would be less of an issue.

I believe Wildcowboy and Mike did a good job of addressing the initial concerns of the OP.

In regards to this post and several others in this thread, I believe that they have nothing to do with the actual subject matter of the OP, and are rehashing the same subject matter of a recent thread in this Site forum that was addressed at length albeit not at the apparent agreement of many of you who have turned the conversation to a different matter.


One is not moderated by simply showing outrage at a perceived egregious post. One is moderated when one's actions in showing outrage break the rules of the forum.

In my opinion, it is not my duty, yours, or any other regular member's duty to 'take on' perceived racism or any other ism or social issue that may make some members of the forum uncomfortable. Our duty, as I understand it to be, is to report posts that may break forum rules to the moderators. It is their duty to protect and address forum offenses. Our duty as members is to do our best to conduct ourselves in a manner that falls within the forum rules while as the same time having fun and helping people when we can.

I think a lot of the disagreement in this thread (with some members), is the perceived lack of acton by staff to address what some members believe to be racist posting and other perceived social injustices and misinformation. While there may be some members on the forum who regularly skirt the lines of forum rule civility, the process remains the same. If one sees a post that is possibly in violation, report it instead of engaging the offense, lest you (plural use) put yourself in harms way by crossing the line in defending something that is the staff's position to defend against by post edit, removal, or other member sanction.

If the staff does get a lot of reports on member x, y, or z, I believe the posting history of said member is taken into account and the context of the post(s) in question are looked upon further and further adjudicated by several staff before taking action against someone skirting the lines one too many times in a direct attempt to be offensive to others under the so called moderator radar.


You and several others continue to make offensive charges agains the staff with your accusations of turning a blind eye type of remarks, in regards to racism on the forum. I believe the staff has clearly responded to said concerns openly in this forum and yet, you and others continue to make allegations and insults about staff conduct.

In my opinion, if one felt strongly about such a matter and for whatever reason one was not in agreement with staff on various issues and actions of perceived character, it would be illogical for one to continue to use said forum.

There is nothing wrong with voicing a polite opinion to staff that encourages them to reevaluate policy and procedure. I believe that that is encouraged. It is quite another thing to purposefully derail a Site forum thread with subject matter that has already been addressed with the same insulting remarks and allegations levied at staff.


Just because we may disagree with staff action at times, that doesn't mean that the staff is turning a blind eye to any harmful action towards other individuals or the forum as a whole. It simply means that the staff does not agree with our viewpoint on a perceived questionable post. And when that happens, we as individuals need to ask ourselves if the difference in opinion is a matter of preference or a matter of personal conviction based on things that we have determined we as individuals will not openly be a part of etc.

In my opinion, the derailed subject matter has been presented (once again) by several here as a matter of strong conviction. And yet, many of the same people not only continue to make the same insults and allegations, they continue to use the forum on a daily basis that is allegedly run by the same staff that is and has turned a blind eye to egregious posting (in a variety of subject matter). That kind of action doesn't show conviction, in my opinion. That kind of action shows a disagreement of preferences, amongst other things.

Either one believes what he or she is posting on the forum, or one doesn't. I believe it is time to put some real meaning and action behind the words being levied by some here against the staff.
 
Understood, but the question around allowed racism still wasn't answered. Can you please address it?
It's already been addressed - it's in the rules. The following is not allowed:

Discrimination, abuse, threats or prejudice against a particular group, for example based on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation, in a way that a reasonable person would find offensive.

Other than that, I agree with @Apple_Robert's comment just above.
 
I believe Wildcowboy and Mike did a good job of addressing the initial concerns of the OP.

In regards to this post and several others in this thread, I believe that they have nothing to do with the actual subject matter of the OP, and are rehashing the same subject matter of a recent thread in this Site forum that was addressed at length albeit not at the apparent agreement of many of you who have turned the conversation to a different matter.


One is not moderated by simply showing outrage at a perceived egregious post. One is moderated when one's actions in showing outrage break the rules of the forum.

In my opinion, it is not my duty, yours, or any other regular member's duty to 'take on' perceived racism or any other ism or social issue that may make some members of the forum uncomfortable. Our duty, as I understand it to be, is to report posts that may break forum rules to the moderators. It is their duty to protect and address forum offenses. Our duty as members is to do our best to conduct ourselves in a manner that falls within the forum rules while as the same time having fun and helping people when we can.

I think a lot of the disagreement in this thread (with some members), is the perceived lack of acton by staff to address what some members believe to be racist posting and other perceived social injustices and misinformation. While there may be some members on the forum who regularly skirt the lines of forum rule civility, the process remains the same. If one sees a post that is possibly in violation, report it instead of engaging the offense, lest you (plural use) put yourself in harms way by crossing the line in defending something that is the staff's position to defend against by post edit, removal, or other member sanction.

If the staff does get a lot of reports on member x, y, or z, I believe the posting history of said member is taken into account and the context of the post(s) in question are looked upon further and further adjudicated by several staff before taking action against someone skirting the lines one too many times in a direct attempt to be offensive to others under the so called moderator radar.


You and several others continue to make offensive charges agains the staff with your accusations of turning a blind eye type of remarks, in regards to racism on the forum. I believe the staff has clearly responded to said concerns openly in this forum and yet, you and others continue to make allegations and insults about staff conduct.

In my opinion, if one felt strongly about such a matter and for whatever reason one was not in agreement with staff on various issues and actions of perceived character, it would be illogical for one to continue to use said forum.

There is nothing wrong with voicing a polite opinion to staff that encourages them to reevaluate policy and procedure. I believe that that is encouraged. It is quite another thing to purposefully derail a Site forum thread with subject matter that has already been addressed with the same insulting remarks and allegations levied at staff.


Just because we may disagree with staff action at times, that doesn't mean that the staff is turning a blind eye to any harmful action towards other individuals or the forum as a whole. It simply means that the staff does not agree with our viewpoint on a perceived questionable post. And when that happens, we as individuals need to ask ourselves if the difference in opinion is a matter of preference or a matter of personal conviction based on things that we have determined we as individuals will not openly be a part of etc.

In my opinion, the derailed subject matter has been presented (once again) by several here as a matter of strong conviction. And yet, many of the same people not only continue to make the same insults and allegations, they continue to use the forum on a daily basis that is allegedly run by the same staff that is and has turned a blind eye to egregious posting (in a variety of subject matter). That kind of action doesn't show conviction, in my opinion. That kind of action shows a disagreement of preferences, amongst other things.

Either one believes what he or she is posting on the forum, or one doesn't. I believe it is time to put some real meaning and action behind the words being levied by some here against the staff.
This is taking the thread pretty far off-topic. Feel free to start another thread to discuss whether you or others feel personally offended by suggestions made to improve the forums.

If you have any thoughts on when political posts should be moderated/deleted vs. when the entire thread should be moved to PRSI or Political News, I believe this thread is the place.
 
It's already been addressed - it's in the rules. The following is not allowed:

Discrimination, abuse, threats or prejudice against a particular group, for example based on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation, in a way that a reasonable person would find offensive.

Other than that, I agree with @Apple_Robert's comment just above.
I'm sorry but that is patently untrue, if I were allowed to post examples here I could show several cases where this is ignored. In this thread alone you have a staff member making the case that you can't even openly post about black history month without it being in PRSI. Going to have to agree to disagree but my hope is that management here takes a closer look at this policy and actually address it.
 
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This thread is not about changing the rules.

So, I believe @ericgtr12 is not arguing that the rules should be changed. He seems to be arguing, as many others are, that there is an apparent disparity in how certain rules are (or are not) being enforced.

I never said it was, my response was to @ericgtr12 's assertion that some members here are able to "tattle/goad" other members into breaking the rules and getting moderated. I then suggested that those members learn to debate with ideas (if they have any) versus emotions which will get you moderated, as it should per the rules. If you cannot articulate a point and all you have in your arsenal is to scream "RACIST!" or. "NAZI!" and walk away then you deserve to be moderated.

I think such concerns are valid, and I appreciate the response of the staff in this thread. I may not agree with all their decisions, nor they with all my suggestions, but I hope having the discussion improves the site overall.

As do I, on all these points I agree with you. As I have stated before it seems there is a small but very vocal group of members here who have a long history of claiming that MR is "overrun" (to use @ericgtr12 own words) with racist talk, racism, nazis, etc., this is obviously not true! I challenge this group of members to read every post currently on the front page and link for us the racist posts.... I'll wait.... if you can't then MR is obviously not "overrun".

I believe most people don’t want political discussions in their thread about Apple’s new iPhone, and that almost nobody wants racist posts on the site at all. I know that’s why I brought up this thread and I believe @ericgtr12 is trying to make the same point.

I don't mind political discussions at all and realize that they may creep into threads as a natural progression of the conversation.

I agree with you 100% that no one wants racist posts on the site. I think MR does a great job of removing racist posts, your milage obviously varies.
 
It's already been addressed - it's in the rules. The following is not allowed:

Discrimination, abuse, threats or prejudice against a particular group, for example based on race, gender, religion or sexual orientation, in a way that a reasonable person would find offensive.

Other than that, I agree with @Apple_Robert's comment just above.
I don’t know if different parts of society have different opinions of what a reasonable person would find offensive, but many people think that rule is not being enforced.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a private conversation with a small group of interested parties to discuss this rule. Then we don’t have the worry that some people will feel publicly insulted or shamed by taking a stance one way or the other on where the “line is drawn“ when it comes to posts and this rule?

Additionally, forum rules on not discussing individual moderation decisions make such a discussion quite difficult in the public forum.
 
I challenge this group of members to read every post currently on the front page and link for us the racist posts.... I'll wait.... if you can't then MR is obviously not "overrun".
As you know, doing such a thing would violate forum rules.

See #5 on this page:

 
In this thread alone you have a staff member making the case that you can't even openly post about black history month without it being in PRSI.

That is NOT what was said! You are free to openly post in the thread.

What was said was:

This is a News thread with references to Black History month, I would say given that, it also belongs in the PRSI forum.

Having this thread, that contains a references to a social issue in our society, located in the PRSI section is a problem how? Not speaking for @maflynn but his response made perfect sense to me. One could argue that references to Black History Month shouldn't be a social issue in our society but it appears to be at this time.
 
As you know, doing such a thing would violate forum rules.

Doesn't change the fact that you can't find any. Humor me, go find one and at least tell me what thread it is in... I'll wait.

All this because of the overly dramatic claims that MR is "overrun" with racism when it very clearly isn't.
 
I don’t know if different parts of society have different opinions of what a reasonable person would find offensive, but many people think that rule is not being enforced.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a private conversation with a small group of interested parties to discuss this rule. Then we don’t have the worry that some people will feel publicly insulted or shamed by taking a stance one way or the other on where the “line is drawn“ when it comes to posts and this rule?

Additionally, forum rules on not discussing individual moderation decisions make such a discussion quite difficult in the public forum.
A private discussion might not include “the reasonable” person concept.
 
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Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a private conversation with a small group of interested parties to discuss this rule. Then we don’t have the worry that some people will feel publicly insulted or shamed by taking a stance one way or the other on where the “line is drawn“ when it comes to posts and this rule?

No thanks! Hiding policy making conversations behind closed doors never led to anything good. I'll take public debate and discourse.
 
No thanks! Hiding policy making conversations behind closed doors never led to anything good. I'll take public debate and discourse.
Not sure if you’re aware of this, but mods discuss all moderation decisions “behind closed doors” and they also keep individual moderation issues private.

Read that page I linked. It’s not possible to look at and dissect example posts without violating that. In a “closed door” meeting, they could be discussed without violating forum rules.
 
Not sure if you’re aware of this, but mods discuss all moderation decisions “behind closed doors” and they also keep individual moderation issues private.

I am aware of that and MR is 100% within their rights to do so.

I was specifically addressing your proposal...

Perhaps it would be a good idea to start a private conversation with a small group of interested parties to discuss this rule.

... and I find your suggestion to be a very poor idea and I responded accordingly.
 
If you have any thoughts on when political posts should be moderated/deleted vs. when the entire thread should be moved to PRSI or Political News, I believe this thread is the place.

With the way the current social and political climate is panning out, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect moderators to baby open forum threads that have heavy PRSI implications.

A part of me feels that some (such as yourself) want to see more participation from the non usual crowd, but moving them to PRSI puts it on its death bed slowly but surely.
 
Personally, I'm thrilled that PRSI content gets posted or moderated/moved to PRSI. I don't come here for that and I don't want to see it. If I know my history right, MR created PRSI to hold a space for PRSI discussions so that PRSI could be kept out of everything else. The argument for keeping PRSI on the MR forums at all is the same.

The best thing the admin staff (arn?) ever did here was this:

Screen Shot 2021-03-07 at 11.01.53 AM.png


Made the forum usable again.

I avoid political discourse on the internet, especially forums like this one. I have witnessed zero cases where someone changed their opinion based on forum posts. Go look. Find one post where someone says "you know what? you're right" -- I'll wait.
 
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One facepalm for each equally false and ridiculous statement.



You knew the rules when you registered! If you, or others, are so easily triggered into breaking the rules then perhaps you shouldn't participate in debate? When you come to debate bring ideas, not emotions.
Sure:D And when you call out trolls after the 5th single line BS response to a fact-supported comment, you get banned from PRSI:D (true story). I literally got suspended for telling someone they are "full of it":D Happy to provide proof in case you doubted. Just to put "some people's" highly condescending hollow comments in perspective.
 
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I think it might be useful to point out the fallacy here. When users break the rules by calling other users names or posting negative personal comments about other users, they are indeed moderated. This is because users agree not to do this when they register.

However, outrage per se is not penalized. It's fine and often instructive for other participants to show outrage or strong disagreement in a thread. Users who do so by focusing on post content make their outrage known in a way that promotes real, civil debate. Responding to the ideas and opinions presented in a post is constructive. Insulting another user is not.
Oh, the stacks of irony... So I was directed to another forum by @Weaselboy to avoid "relitigating the issue of hoax", and there found the recipe for this forum. It's totally fine insulting people as long as keep it very very (pseudo)general. What cracked me up is my reference to this issue got moderated immediately:D

Again, you guys set the culture here and you have the right to set it whatever way you want to. But maybe there shall emerge no surprise when putative trolls may be taking over the supposed forum.
 
Sure:D And when you call out trolls after the 5th single line BS response to a fact-supported comment, you get banned from PRSI:D (true story). I literally got suspended for telling someone they are "full of it":D Happy to provide proof in case you doubted. Just to put "some people's" highly condescending hollow comments in perspective.
So what you’re really saying is, you couldn’t follow the rules and put yourself in a position where you got a banned based off your own responses to someone who trolled you. Got it. To me, it sounds like you don’t want to accept ownership for your own actions, but want to deflect to pointing out how the rules are unfair.

If someone’s trolling, and you suspect they’re trolling, just report it and the more reports that are accounted for for that specific member that’s trolling, the moderators handle it accordingly. But it sounds like to me, you were baited and responded to someone when you probably shouldn’t have.

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Trolling is prevalent no matter where you are on this site. Nobody’s overtaking anything, that’s the nature of online forums, you can combat that by either ignoring said person or you report it. Trying to constantly trying to change and alter what’s fair, seems like it’s more circular discussion then you’re actually making any progress.
 
So what you’re really saying is, you couldn’t follow the rules and put yourself in a position where you got a banned based off your own responses to someone who trolled you. Got it. To me, it sounds like you don’t want to accept ownership for your own actions, but want to deflect to pointing out how the rules are unfair.

If someone’s trolling, and you suspect they’re trolling, just report it and the more reports that are accounted for for that specific member that’s trolling, the moderators handle it accordingly. But it sounds like to me, you were baited and responded to someone when you probably shouldn’t have.

****************************
Trolling is prevalent no matter where you are on this site. Nobody’s overtaking anything, that’s the nature of online forums, you can combat that by either ignoring said person or you report it. Trying to constantly trying to change and alter what’s fair, seems like it’s more circular discussion then you’re actually making any progress.
Actually, he's saying the rules aren't applied equally and it's a systemic problem here. Bias and political leanings are apparent within the staff.

Case in point, while the rest of the country celebrates black history month, MR looks to bury it. If staff doesn't see a problem with their own making statements like this they'll certainly never address it in the general public.
This is a News thread with references to Black History month, I would say given that, it also belongs in the PRSI forum.
 
Sure:D And when you call out trolls after the 5th single line BS response to a fact-supported comment, you get banned from PRSI:D (true story). I literally got suspended for telling someone they are "full of it":D Happy to provide proof in case you doubted. Just to put "some people's" highly condescending hollow comments in perspective.
You can request vis the contact us link (or post in this thread) that you give the staff permission to discuss your moderation…if you believe there is a point to be uncovered or proved.
 
At the highest level the leadership of this site is making a deliberate decision to allow such behavior

this site is overrun with this type of talk

Staff here are openly allowing people to be racist

Actually, he's saying the rules aren't applied equally and it's a systemic problem here.

Bias and political leanings are apparent within the staff.

Case in point, while the rest of the country celebrates black history month, MR looks to bury it.

I really wish we could label these posts with a fact check warning. You make some really bold and derogatory allegations about MR and the mod staff with statements like that but the trick is its all your opinion stated as fact.

I'm still waiting for you to back up your allegation that MR is "overrun", all I asked you for was a reference to a sinlge racist post in any article on the front page. As indicated you can't link it but I think you can list the article and page number, thats not too specific.

My guess is you cannot find one... well go to the second page then.... I'll wait.... oh, still can't find one, try the third page, I'll wait.................

Stop saying MR is "overrun" with racist talk, it very clearly isn't.
 
So what you’re really saying is, you couldn’t follow the rules and put yourself in a position where you got a banned based off your own responses to someone who trolled you. Got it. To me, it sounds like you don’t want to accept ownership for your own actions, but want to deflect to pointing out how the rules are unfair.

If someone’s trolling, and you suspect they’re trolling, just report it and the more reports that are accounted for for that specific member that’s trolling, the moderators handle it accordingly. But it sounds like to me, you were baited and responded to someone when you probably shouldn’t have.

****************************
Trolling is prevalent no matter where you are on this site. Nobody’s overtaking anything, that’s the nature of online forums, you can combat that by either ignoring said person or you report it. Trying to constantly trying to change and alter what’s fair, seems like it’s more circular discussion then you’re actually making any progress.
I won't even try to decode the perceived basis of the numerous assumptions in this comment. However, I do find it entertaining how you exactly corroborated my point without realizing:

Some people are expected to adhere to a higher personal responsibility standard than the hoards of people who are allowed to not only circulate disinformation with impunity, but also to weaponize it to PRSIfy things they don't like. I'm totally fine with it, I can just go contribute elsewhere. I just felt it's important to add my perspective on how a culture emerges in which mods nonchalantly admit that things involving Black History Month are automatically PRSI material and is astutely summarized by @ericgtr12 :
Case in point, while the rest of the country celebrates black history month, MR looks to bury it. If staff doesn't see a problem with their own making statements like this they'll certainly never address it in the general public.

You can request vis the contact us link (or post in this thread) that you give the staff permission to discuss your moderation…if you believe there is a point to be uncovered or proved.
I brought this up to match up some of the super generalized statements and actual practice here. I'm not missing anything from PRSI, so why bother, BTW.
 
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