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What is it going to take to get people to shut up on the silly one-button mouse point?! It's so passe... It's not like every single Mac user ever in the history of everything ever hasn't already heard at least ten of his friends and ten thousand trolls say the same old ignorant argument about Mac's willingness to "Think Different" with a one-button mouse...

We have heard it said, before. Let it die, already!
 
Given I use all three operating systems (XP, Linux and MacOSX [both tiger and leopard for that matter on different partitions]), I guess I'm not so sensitive to OS-Centric quibbles.

Frankly, I hated Apple's keyboard that came with this PowerMac so I bought a Logitech one and swapped the command key to CTRL on it (seeing as how everything that uses CTRL in Windows OR Linux uses CMD in OSX...a case of Apple holding on to non-standards just to be difficult, IMO; it does then cause issues in X11 since my ALT key then does the CTRL stuff, but I don't use X11 much in OSX). If I hadn't changed anything, it would still have two keys reversed since the alt key is actually where the CMD (apple) key goes and the "windows" key is alt and CTRL would be CTRL on both EXCEPT that htey don't DO the same things (again that's CMD). Confused yet? You have to do SOMETHING when using a standard keyboard (i.e. not a crappy Apple one that is either missing the numeric keypad or has flat keys that remind me of a cross between a speak'n'spell and an ATARI 400 keyPADboard. Don't even get me going on that stupid Mighty Mouse design. I bought a cheap Dynex mouse and it works identical in both OSX and Windows now.

I guess what I'm getting at is Firefox REALLY not fitting into OSX or is more like OSX isn't fitting in with everyone else out there (i.e. Windows, Linux, BSD, etc.) You only think it's odd because you are used to Apple doing non-standard things (Appletalk, Nubus, pushing Firewire in lieu of USB 2.0 when it first came out instead of including both, etc.), which only ever happens in the first place because Apple wants you to buy THEIR hardware, not get a good deal on something standard and cheap from the rest of the computing world. They finally realized one button doesn't cut it (i.e. they were wrong all along about it) but to try and cover the fact up, they HIDE the second button on their mice even today. It works well enough to make some PC users think they STILL use one button. Well, then there's the absolutely ABSURD use of only ONE button on their laptops even today when not only are there right AND middle button clicks supported in OSX, but they are DESIGNED to be able to run Windows now either directly via BootCamp or in addition with Fusion or Parallels. So WHY would they still insist on pretending to use one button on a laptop when they know there are a LOT of people that want that 2nd button. Sure you can do that double tap on the pad or whatever, but it's no substitute for the real thing or they wouldn't include the first button either.

I digress. I'm sure given the extension system someone can use the Stylish extension or something like that to make every single key shortcut, button, etc. identical to Safari for those that need that for some reason. I mean Apple USED to depend on Internet Explorer so how between then and now everyone thinks Apple = Safari is beyond me, especially given how awful Safari was a couple of years ago compared to today. But as I mentioned earlier, the biggest difference between Safari and Firefox is that if I don't like Firefox's default interface, I CAN do something about it. With Safari, if I don't like it (say on my XP machine where it looks completely out of place), I'm stuck because Apple believes things have to look like their current method even on operating systems where NOTHING ELSE looks like that. But as someone else attempted to point out, you don't see die-hard Mac fans complaining how awful Safari looks on Windows, just Firefox3 (which at least makes an attempt to better fit in and can be further adapted by the user) which then gets hounded for its supposed sins against humanity.

Personally, I can use Firefox OR Safari and I don't feel all that weirded out with either one. There is, after all, more than one way to skin a cat, even a Leopard.

haha lol and after this they call US fanboys . . . :rolleyes: :confused:

And you'd want to check your facts about Apple laptops not having second mouse button/scroll functionality. Such ignorant posts make me sick.
 
haha lol and after this they call US fanboys . . . :rolleyes: :confused:

And you'd want to check your facts about Apple laptops not having second mouse button/scroll functionality. Such ignorant posts make me sick.

Yeah... I mean it's so hard to keep one finger on the pad and use the other one to scroll... haha people are 'special' you're right :)
 
I m not sure if the word "port" honestly describe what firefox 3 has to offer on OSX. And there are so much OSX native codes in Firefox 3, its far from just wrap up windows version of app and make a shell to run it on OSX. If thats what you were suggesting.

What is a poor port? I think the classic example is safari for windows, iTuns for windows, and quicktime for windows. Its honestly just a wrap up of OSX version in some sorts of shell and make them run in windows.

I'm very sure. Just by looking at it you can see that its a port! The drop down menus, the preferences panel, the form control widget spacings, the bad scrolling, etc etc.

I never said that iTunes/Safari/QuickTime for Windows were good ports, either. Infact, I agree, they are poor ports. But that doesnt change the fact that Firefox on Mac OS X is a bad port.

A comment on the page that I link to at the bottom of this page really sums this up nicely:
sdfsadsfwe said:
Non-Mac people probably don’t “get it” about OS X consistency. On Windows every application invents its own “skin”, on Linux you have several wildly different toolkits and nobody cares

Clevin, your firefox fanboyism is showing

I don't think anyone was saying that they weren't going to use firefox in OS X and so they were switching to Safari on Windows :rolleyes:

Agreed.

Given I use all three operating systems (XP, Linux and MacOSX [both tiger and leopard for that matter on different partitions]), I guess I'm not so sensitive to OS-Centric quibbles.

Frankly, I hated Apple's keyboard that came with this PowerMac so I bought a Logitech one and swapped the command key to CTRL on it (seeing as how everything that uses CTRL in Windows OR Linux uses CMD in OSX...a case of Apple holding on to non-standards just to be difficult, IMO; it does then cause issues in X11 since my ALT key then does the CTRL stuff, but I don't use X11 much in OSX). If I hadn't changed anything, it would still have two keys reversed since the alt key is actually where the CMD (apple) key goes and the "windows" key is alt and CTRL would be CTRL on both EXCEPT that htey don't DO the same things (again that's CMD). Confused yet? You have to do SOMETHING when using a standard keyboard (i.e. not a crappy Apple one that is either missing the numeric keypad or has flat keys that remind me of a cross between a speak'n'spell and an ATARI 400 keyPADboard. Don't even get me going on that stupid Mighty Mouse design. I bought a cheap Dynex mouse and it works identical in both OSX and Windows now.

I guess what I'm getting at is Firefox REALLY not fitting into OSX or is more like OSX isn't fitting in with everyone else out there (i.e. Windows, Linux, BSD, etc.) You only think it's odd because you are used to Apple doing non-standard things (Appletalk, Nubus, pushing Firewire in lieu of USB 2.0 when it first came out instead of including both, etc.), which only ever happens in the first place because Apple wants you to buy THEIR hardware, not get a good deal on something standard and cheap from the rest of the computing world. They finally realized one button doesn't cut it (i.e. they were wrong all along about it) but to try and cover the fact up, they HIDE the second button on their mice even today. It works well enough to make some PC users think they STILL use one button. Well, then there's the absolutely ABSURD use of only ONE button on their laptops even today when not only are there right AND middle button clicks supported in OSX, but they are DESIGNED to be able to run Windows now either directly via BootCamp or in addition with Fusion or Parallels. So WHY would they still insist on pretending to use one button on a laptop when they know there are a LOT of people that want that 2nd button. Sure you can do that double tap on the pad or whatever, but it's no substitute for the real thing or they wouldn't include the first button either.

I digress. I'm sure given the extension system someone can use the Stylish extension or something like that to make every single key shortcut, button, etc. identical to Safari for those that need that for some reason. I mean Apple USED to depend on Internet Explorer so how between then and now everyone thinks Apple = Safari is beyond me, especially given how awful Safari was a couple of years ago compared to today. But as I mentioned earlier, the biggest difference between Safari and Firefox is that if I don't like Firefox's default interface, I CAN do something about it. With Safari, if I don't like it (say on my XP machine where it looks completely out of place), I'm stuck because Apple believes things have to look like their current method even on operating systems where NOTHING ELSE looks like that. But as someone else attempted to point out, you don't see die-hard Mac fans complaining how awful Safari looks on Windows, just Firefox3 (which at least makes an attempt to better fit in and can be further adapted by the user) which then gets hounded for its supposed sins against humanity.

Personally, I can use Firefox OR Safari and I don't feel all that weirded out with either one. There is, after all, more than one way to skin a cat, even a Leopard.

Wow. There are so many things wrong with that post.

What does keyboards have to do with Firefox? Nothing.

Apple shipped USB on the iMacs before Firewire.

The double finger tap is far better than a second mouse button, IMO.

I'm not saying anything about how extensible Firefox is (indeed, that is a good thing but again there are extensions for Safari. Want AdBlock, try SafariBlock. No JS? Thats an option in Safari preferences. Inquisitor in itself is a reason to use Safari IMO. For more visit http://pimpmysafari.com/). I'm saying that the app itself behaves like a bad Windows port onto Mac OS X.

Clevin and MagnusVonMagnum: For a comprehensive look at Firefox on Mac OS X, visit this page: http://www.sanneblad.se/johan/?p=180 and http://www.sanneblad.se/johan/?p=119

EDIT: I just realized how much people feel about this. There are people who started an entire browser just to rectify Firefox's shortcomings on Mac OS X; its called Camino. If that isnt a demonstration of a poor port, I dont know what is.
 
Given I use all three operating systems (XP, Linux and MacOSX [both tiger and leopard for that matter on different partitions]), I guess I'm not so sensitive to OS-Centric quibbles.
I use all three and I want Windows to work like Windows, OS X like OS X, and Linux like Linux. The house has a kitchen and a bathroom, but that wouldn't stop me being phased if someone decided to install a toilet in the middle of the kitchen floor.

Frankly, I hated Apple's keyboard that came with this PowerMac so I bought a Logitech one
I quite like Apple's white keyboard that came with this machine, but I wanted a Bluetooth one and I got a Belkin...

and swapped the command key to CTRL on it (seeing as how everything that uses CTRL in Windows OR Linux uses CMD in OSX...a case of Apple holding on to non-standards just to be difficult
...but I have things mapped so it's like the layout of an Apple keyboard, and ignore the labels on the keys (which I don't look at anyway). Notice how we could each choose what we preferred, but only one of us invented a `standard' just because two common OSs use a different label for a key with a particular role.

(i.e. not a crappy Apple one that is either missing the numeric keypad or has flat keys that remind me of a cross between a speak'n'spell and an ATARI 400 keyPADboard. Don't even get me going on that stupid Mighty Mouse design.
i've not tried the flatboard long enough to judge. The Mighty Mouse is a travesty of ergonomics. But Windows, Mac or Linux box, it's nice how we can all choose which keyboard to use.

I guess what I'm getting at is Firefox REALLY not fitting into OSX or is more like OSX isn't fitting in with everyone else out there (i.e. Windows, Linux, BSD, etc.)
If OS X was like everything else then it wouldn't be OS X, and there'd be no point in buying a Mac over any other machine. Total homogeneity is not an aim or a desire; if you want something that embraces everything else and knocks it down to lowest common denominator, stick with pure POSIX or .NET or something.

Apple doing non-standard things (Appletalk, Nubus, pushing Firewire in lieu of USB 2.0 when it first came out instead of including both, etc.)
Are you using the word `standard' to mean `more common, therefore correct'? Shouldn't we all be on Windows, then? Anyway, in which year did PCs commonly have USB hardware but Macs did not? What do you find technically superior about USB over Firewire that makes you annoyed that Apple favoured the latter? Don't forget that you're talking USB 1.x era, widening the gap even further.

which only ever happens in the first place because Apple wants you to buy THEIR hardware
Are you arguing that businesses shouldn't want you to buy their stuff? What was the last year Apple used ADB rather than USB? In what way is PS/2 / AT more `standard' than ADB?

finally realized one button doesn't cut it (i.e. they were wrong all along about it) but to try and cover the fact up
Looked at another way, they moved to NeXTstep, which assumes two buttons. Did Apple ever disable all the third party two button ADB mice on the market, or is this like all other issues so far raised where the only problem seems to be that you don't like the Apple default choice even when users have alternatives?

they HIDE the second button on their mice even today. It works well enough to make some PC users think they STILL use one button.
The whole UI is still usable with one button. The Mac is traditionally more about clicking and dragging, Windows about selecting and adjusting. But don't let this stop you doing what I did and getting an $n$-button mouse.

Well, then there's the absolutely ABSURD use of only ONE button on their laptops even today
Yes. Agreed. Though an appropriate two finger press on the trackpad works as a right click, it's not as precise, and makes complex movements harder. You've listed a huge heap of problems with Apple 15 years ago, and now one problem with Apple today.

identical to Safari for those that need that for some reason.
If drivers in one country are used to driving on the left, don't suddenly build roads in their country where they have to drive on the right. Unless, perhaps, you're building roads exclusively for foreign visitors, in which case you should expect the natives to object.

I mean Apple USED to depend on Internet Explorer so how between then and now everyone thinks Apple = Safari is beyond me, especially given how awful Safari was a couple of years ago compared to today.
Did you try Firefox 2.0 to see how awful it was one month ago? Mac-oriented web browsers have improved, and Safari has improved. Did you try Netscape Navigator 4.72 back when IE was king on the Mac?

the biggest difference between Safari and Firefox is that if I don't like Firefox's default interface, I CAN do something about it.
Skinning is not by a long stretch the same as changing the interface. An interface is as much about how functionality is exposed. And no Firefox skins match the smooth integration of Safari with Leopard's theme. If I have the choice between a million differently polished number twos and one tasty cake... well, at least it'd be more varied than the average general election.

Now, if you want to argue that OS X as a whole needs official theming support, I'd completely agree. Black on dark grey is not very legible.

you don't see die-hard Mac fans complaining how awful Safari looks on Windows
A die-hard Mac fan probably won't even look at Safari for Windows to know, nor care. But yes, Safari looks very out of place on Windows, and I see it as more a helper for iPhone developers, teaser for potential switchers and relief for some Mac users who must use Windows. I can't see Apple seriously thinking they're going to gain a good proportion of Windows browser share.

A fundamental distinction between Windows and Mac users is that a large proportion of Mac users tend to be there by choice. They like the way Mac designers think, and saying "you have the choice to be very different or only slightly different from the Mac!" isn't helpful. Many Mac users pay attention to detail, so saying "stop fussing about a few cosmetic/rendering errors!" is like saying "stop fussing about the scratches I made on the your new car door!" You might not mind the look of your car after it's been keyed, but many people do.
 
Here's the deal: Every time someone uses the old "one-button" standby as an argument against some other flaw they THINK :apple:'s have, I'm going to pull out MY old standby argument against Windows:

WINDOWS JUST SUCKS.

It's just as strong of an argument!
 
I'm very sure. Just by looking at it you can see that its a port! The drop down menus, the preferences panel, the form control widget spacings, the bad scrolling, etc etc.
again, what exactly is the definition of a "poor port" in your dictionary? has a drop down menu that doesn't look like safari?

IMO, port is a description of how the product is made for OSX. The first question I would ask is port from what? since firefox is crossplatform, like I said, Its just as native on OSX as windows version.

your link doesn't provide objective ideas since the author is obvious not objective. He doesn't even know safari's button isn't native neither! and proudly present that as an example? Sigh.
EDIT: I just realized how much people feel about this. There are people who started an entire browser just to rectify Firefox's shortcomings on Mac OS X; its called Camino. If that isnt a demonstration of a poor port, I dont know what is.

see, thats what I was talking about, you made such statement without knowing the fact and the conclusion you got is obviously wrong too.

Camino started as chimera, at that time, firefox wasn't even born, even when started half a year later, firefox at that time (phoenix was the original name) had no intention of supporting OSX at all. Camino was not born from the dissatisfaction of firefox for OSX, how can it be designed to fix something that wasn't there?

this and that

The way you made the whole arguement and discount the advantages of firefox on the memory, security, theming, extensions, etc, is precisely an example of you yourself generalizing the mac users in one basket.

Firefox 2 has 22% marketshare on OSX. How horrible is that? don't always assume people being not smart enough and know what they want.

You can obviously make all your arguments on looks, but I don't believe OSX users are as you described. and I don't even believe Looks is as an important factor as you made it to be, drive on the left and right? LOL.
 
I like Firefox. I like it more than Safari. The extensions, which is where I think a bulk of the features for Firefox should be, and the ability to add search engines to the search bar are my reasons. I think Safari can sort of do the search engine thing but it was awkward for me when I tried about three years ago and I honestly have no reason to go and try that again.

And I just found this tree style tab extension. Man that thing is sweet!

But I don't think Firefox is a bad port at all. It works as well as Safari for me.
 
haha lol and after this they call US fanboys . . . :rolleyes: :confused:

And you'd want to check your facts about Apple laptops not having second mouse button/scroll functionality. Such ignorant posts make me sick.

Maybe you should actually read the entire post that you quoted before you jump to conclusions about it. I own a Mac desktop, so I'm no Windows fanboy. I bought a Mac because I prefer the operating system over Windows, but that doesn't mean I like all the hardware Apple pushes. In any case, I clearly said in the previous post you quoted yourself,

"So WHY would they still insist on pretending to use one button on a laptop when they know there are a LOT of people that want that 2nd button. Sure you can do that double tap on the pad or whatever, but it's no substitute for the real thing or they wouldn't include the first button either."

In other words, if a two finger tap is BETTER than an actual 2nd button, then why not some similar move for the first button as well and have NO buttons on a Mac laptop? If you don't need one, you don't need the other. Yet if you have one, you should probably have the other. That's my actual point about Apple still being difficult in some areas today (not just when they actually only needed one button).

Apple is pushing Windows compatibility through Boot Camp and Parallels/Fusion to try and attract switchers from the Windows market. While it's easy for me to buy a new mouse for my desktop Mac to give me the type of mouse input I desire, I cannot simply add an extra button to the laptop's surface without serious surgery. Given OSX, Windows and Linux all use at least two buttons, it serves no advantage to Apple in that regard to only include a single button. Given my next purchase will be a Mac laptop on the next hardware update (to run Logic Pro in a mobile fashion), I'd prefer to see it addressed given I'm used to a hard right button, not double tapping (and you can't double tap on a desktop so it's hardly standard across all Macs either).

Now if you don't mind the current setup, that's fine. I've got no beef with someone's preference. But that doesn't mean you have to crap on my mouse, keyboard or trackpad preferences either.
 
After three "unexpected shut downs" I'm afraid Firefox 3 has been dragged into the Trash and version 2 has been reinstalled.

I will definitely use Firefox 3 but not until it is more stable .. :(
 
After three "unexpected shut downs" I'm afraid Firefox 3 has been dragged into the Trash and version 2 has been reinstalled.

I will definitely use Firefox 3 but not until it is more stable .. :(

how did you reproduce the shutdowns?
 
after using Safari more, I realized that the shortcut keys for tabs are really limited. in FF i can undo closed tabs, move tabs around, select tabs 1-8 all from my keyboard.

my problem with safari is the amount of work needed to hack it to make it do what I want. with FF i can browse lists of easily installable hacks that I didn't even know I needed until i see them.

for example, take Easy DragToGo. You can highlight a word, and drag that selection down and it opens a new tab and Googles that word. I didn't know I needed that, but now that I have it, its amazingly convenient.
 
I am basically still a new Mac user (about six months). At first I used FF 2, but found it too
"Windows like" so I switched to Safari. When FF 3 came out I used it for a while, but I was so used to using Safari that I switched back to Safari.
 
this firefox is really great.. just love the interface. but i am too used to safari already.. ;)

and thats the problem, Firefox seems excellent, I am just to hooked to safari, is their any realase for Safari 4, or is just going to come with Snow Lepard.
 
and thats the problem, Firefox seems excellent, I am just to hooked to safari, is their any realase for Safari 4, or is just going to come with Snow Lepard.

what makes you miss safari when you're in firefox, other than the address bar? i'm pretty sure theres an extension for anything that is missing.
 
I have issues with Firefox 3 and Safari 4

Safari 4 = RAM Hog (usually around 300 - 400 MB of used physical RAM)
Firefox 3 = CPU Hog (usually around 70 - 90 % CPU Usage)

I am using a 13" Mid - 2007 Refurb Macbook with 2.5 GB RAM, 2.0 Ghz Processor (Core2Duo) & Mac OS X 10.5.4 ("Leopard")
 
I have issues with Firefox 3 and Safari 4

Safari 4 = RAM Hog (usually around 300 - 400 MB of used physical RAM)
Firefox 3 = CPU Hog (usually around 70 - 90 % CPU Usage)

I am using a 13" Mid - 2007 Refurb Macbook with 2.5 GB RAM, 2.0 Ghz Processor (Core2Duo) & Mac OS X 10.5.4 ("Leopard")

What do you recommend using instead? I am tired of safari and firefox as well. Both are buggy as heck if you ask me. Especially Firefox 3. I expect a crash 4 to 5 times a day with firefox and safari just grinds my computer to a halt sometimes.
 
I recommend you stop downloading porn :p

j/k.

You really don't have many options... do they make opera for OS X?
 
Opera is not ready for the big time, I think. Heck, it has not even pass Acid2!

yes It does. and I don't see how Acid tests should be the deciding factor in judging if a browser is ready....:)
 

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