MPAA ''Committed To Fair Use, Interoperability, DRM''

[Thataboy]

Well, the argument Apple often brings up about removing DRM from music is that CDs, which make up the bulk of music sales, have no DRM to begin with.

The same cannot be said of DVDs.

Of course, one can easily argue that it takes just ONE PERSON to rip a DVD with handbrake and upload it to a P2P network -- at that point, it is in the wild for anyone to take if they so desire. Meanwhile, DRM still simply penalizes legitimate users and purchasers of digital content. I won't hold my breath that the MPAA will see it that way.

That said, it is not SUPER UNREASONABLE for the MPAA to say "look, you can rip DVDs in iTunes for use on iPods or tv, but we just want it be a 1:1 transaction -- there was DRM before, and there is DRM after." Contrast that to the outrageous behavior of the Zune, which ADDS DRM to the songs it squirts to other Zunes, whether the song was bought online or not.

Ultimately, I think it is fine for the MPAA to allowing ripping of DVDs in iTunes if DRM is added. For those of us who have an issue with that, there is always handbrake. It'll simply make tv more useful to the masses who don't know what handbrake is.

At some point, Apple really should establish a Netflix-like subscription service for video content. I personally don't understand anyone who wants to "own" an iTunes movie at a quality below DVD, with no extra content, at such a high price. It boggles the mind, when one can easily buy a DVD for little more $, use handbrake, and have all the extra content + DVD quality + no DRM. What, you REALLY need to see Pirates of the Caribbean now now now?

 

[EricNau]

Secondly, if you could burn a DVD of your iTunes video purchases (just like you can burn a CD of iTunes music), more people would be interested in downloading video content from iTunes. My wife would have used this just last week. She had some episodes of The Office and wanted to take them to a friend's house. Unfortunately, I was going out of town with the video iPod. If she could easily burn a DVD, she would have done that the day before.

I don't see that happening anytime soon. While it may encourage video purchasing from the iTunes store, it would discourage Apple TV sales (who would spend $300 when you could just burn a DVD instead?). ...Remember, Apple makes their money from hardware sales, not iTunes.

It would also discourage movie corporations from selling content through iTunes (besides the piracy issue, it could also decrease DVD sales).

 

[shamino]

... fair use, interoperability, and DRM

Hmmm... That third item, by definition, eliminates any possibility of the first two.

I wonder if their next press release will be a call for a peaceful nuclear war.

What they ask for can be done - license code to decrypt, rip, and re-encrypt with a different tech (like FairPlay). But it really won't accomplish anything. Right now, anybody who wants to bother can easily download software to break DVD encryption and rip it without DRM.

Both of the MPAA and RIAA are part of the true axis of evil by far. I consider them to be on the top 5 most wanted list.

The RIAA and MPAA have no independent will. They say what their member corporations are saying.

The source of these statements are the record labels and movie studios (Sony, Warner Bros, Universal, Disney, etc.) If anybody is being "evil" here, it is these companies. The RIAA/MPAA will very quickly change its press releases if/when its member companies decide to change their collective minds.

If the MPAA allows legal DVD ripping I could see a lot of people questioning why they need to buy a DVD when they can just rent and rip a copy.

I'm sure the studios are thinking about this. And it will probably nix any possible deal. But in the real world, it doesn't matter - those who want to illegally rip a DVD can do so today, and many people are doing just that.

 

[Stella]

Exactly!

Apple have movie / show downloads from iTuness, yes. What people are forgetting is that this is limited to a small consumer base - i.e., the states only.

iTV is for windows as well as Mac. As it stands, iTV is very limited, you cannot legally put DVD content on to your computer.

This MPAA aim will allow Apple to offer such functionality within iTunes and make iTV ( and iPod ) more appealing.

To reiterate what some others have said, Apple doesn't care if they make a few cents of the iTunes Store. What they DO care about is making much more money off of TV sales, or iPod sales, etc.

Apple already allows you to rip CD's in iTunes. That capability was around long before the Music Store was around, lest we forget, and it was doing a fine job of selling iPods. Anything that helps make them a more attractive option for selling their hardware/software bundle will be welcome. Obviously, if people can rip their already-owned DVD collection into iTunes, that is a HUGE advantage for something like the Apple TV, and I think Apple would be all for the MPAA to allow them to do such a thing.

 

[Xapplimatic]

MPAA: "Quick, make it a kinder, gentler DRM"

They are obviously in panic mode because they can see the tide of consumer resentment against DRM is clearly not in their favor. This is a Microsoft style adopt and assimilate move (ala Borg genre) which tries to say oh look! Our DRM isn't so bad after all! What ever! Weaker DRM is even more pointless.. yet just another insult to consumers and a waste of our precious time... Weaker DRM with more loop-holes clearly is even more pirate fodder than stronger DRM with fewer. What's their point? I think it's this: We hate our customers just as much as the people who steal from us blatantly..

 

[PNW]

So far, DRM has protected the movie industry from piracy (for the most part)

What?
I'd argue the opposite. Given the multitude or both free and commercial products currently on the market for copying/ ripping DVD’s I fail to see how DRM has prevented anything but non tech-savvy users from backing up their DVDs

It would be in everyone's best interest if iTunes users could copy DVDs for personal use, while applying FairPlay on the digital copy.

Not in mine, or anyone else who doesn’t use iTunes for everything. I’ve currently got MythTV running on an old Dell with a Suse install hooked up to my TV. This would just give me the “choice” of ponying more $$ for an apple TV that’s not as versatile if I wanted to make “legal” digital copies to watch at home.

You want compromise; make it legal to copy with complete interoperability and illegal to distribute.

 

[EricNau]

What?
I'd argue the opposite. Given the multitude or both free and commercial products currently on the market for copying/ ripping DVD’s I fail to see how DRM has prevented anything but non tech-savvy users from backing up their DVDs

Has movie pirating reached the same level as music pirating? No, so something is obviously working.

Not in mine, or anyone else who doesn’t use iTunes for everything. I’ve currently got MythTV running on an old Dell with a Suse install hooked up to my TV. This would just give me the “choice” of ponying more $$ for an apple TV that’s not as versatile if I wanted to make “legal” digital copies to watch at home.

iTunes was purely an example. Surely other programs would be able to do the same.

You want compromise; make it legal to copy with complete interoperability and illegal to distribute.

And has that worked for the music industry? No, so that obviously does not work.

 

[zioxide]

"Committed To Fair Use, Interoperability, DRM"

wait, what?

You can't be committed to fair use and committed to DRM. DRM restricts fair use and interoperability.

If I own a DVD and I want to make it so I can watch it on my iPod, I should be able to without having to break the DRM. If I can't, than it's restricting my fair use of something that I OWN.

 

[PNW]

Has movie pirating reached the same level as music pirating? No, so something is obviously working.

Um, file size for starters.
Second is likely the idea that people have been freely passing music around between friends for years (a la mix tapes) and as such they are less likely to think of sharing as stealing. The web just expanded the sphere of one person’s “friends” to a size that bit into the record companies profits and there was a backlash. People are starting to get the idea that you can’t just “publish” someone else’s work even for free.

Movies are different we weren’t making mix tapes on betamax 25 years ago and passing them out to our friends.

iTunes was purely an example. Surely other programs would be able to do the same.

Right just like DRMd music from iTunes (or anywhere else) plays so well in Amarok.

And has that worked for the music industry? No, so that obviously does not work.

Given that iTunes is now selling DRM free music, I'd say it has.

You can either assume that everyone's a crook and given the opportunity to steal they will so you work for laws like the DMCA that turn otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals for simple fair use of a product they purchased. Or you can assume that any copy protection code can and will be cracked and focus your attention on the distribution and sales of illegal material.

 

[ariza910]

Isnt focusing on DVDs in 2007 kind of like focusing on the 8-Track during the early 80s?

DVDs are an aging distribution model - they will slowly give way to direct downloads to set top boxes like the TV or XBOX360.

Downloading content will ultimately become the distribution model in the future. What the MPAA will need to focus on is a way to allow that downloaded content to be moved from one device to another and to move that downloaded content to physical media like a DVD for storage.

 

[slughead]

Amongst the ideas proposed by the MPAA was a plan to let consumers rip DVDs for use on home media servers and iPods. However, Ars notes that the plan is not without caveats, and the plan is still in its infancy. For one, it appears as though the movie studios would want Digital Rights Management (DRM) applied to any ripped movies.

Thanks for permission, I've been doing that for years.

I own the DVD, and the computer. It's called personal property.

If I'm going to go to jail for ripping my own DVDs, I should probably just pirate them, since I'm going to jail anyway, right?

 

[EricNau]

Given that iTunes is now selling DRM free music, I'd say it has.

Quite the opposite really. The music industry is phasing out DRM because they've already lost the battle against piracy. DRM isn't making a difference anymore (not that it ever was). They've gotten to the point where they can no longer discourage piracy, so instead they're finding ways to encourage legal purchasing. Quite frankly, they can't do anything to make it worse than it already is.

Quite differently, DRM has worked very well for the movie industry, and I can understand perfectly why they would be reluctant to change that. They don't want piracy to spread to movies as well, which is exactly what would happen if they removed DRM as you are suggesting.

Keep in mind, the movie industry is digitally closed - every digital movie shipped today is shipped with DRM, making piracy quite difficult for the average consumer. The music industry, on the other hand is 95% open, and has been since the release of the CD. ...This is what makes the two markets completely different.

 

[joeshell383]

Did the MPAA forget about DVD rental service like Netflix or Blockbuster?

If the MPAA allows legal DVD ripping I could see a lot of people questioning why they need to buy a DVD when they can just rent and rip a copy.

They could always give rental services special DVDs that won't rip.

There is so much fuss about DRM on these boards, and I just don't get it. For normal users it really doesn't interfere with the usability/enjoyability of the files at hand (but DOES help, somewhat at least, with keeping piracy down). This especially true for Joe Schmo who doesn't even know that DRM is being applied to his iTunes Store music, and thinks the 128kbps file is "A-OK digital quality."

DRM can be fair and interoperable. I think Fairplay is one of the best examples of such a mechanism.

BTW, this proposal is a BIG plus. It will turn TV into the next iPod, because it sure wasn't iTMS that made the iPod take off, it was pirated and legally ripped music.

 

[slughead]

Isnt focusing on DVDs in 2007 kind of like focusing on the 8-Track during the early 80s?

DVDs are an aging distribution model - they will slowly give way to direct downloads to set top boxes like the TV or XBOX360.

Downloading content will ultimately become the distribution model in the future. What the MPAA will need to focus on is a way to allow that downloaded content to be moved from one device to another and to move that downloaded content to physical media like a DVD for storage.

yeah, except downloaded content SUCKS

see how long it takes to download a full quality HDDVD movie... oh wait, you don't even have the "8-track" (dvd) quality available online.

I guess it's not so outdated after all.

 

[PNW]

Keep in mind, the movie industry is is digitally closed - every digital movie shipped today is shipped with DRM, making piracy quite difficult for the average consumer.

So you're saying that the average consumer is a thief. Personally I find that offensive, and it's exactly what pisses me off so much about DRM, especially considering that distributing pirated material requires more ingenuity than removing DRM.

In other words from my point of view the majority of average consumers are not and don’t want to be pirates, and all pirates are not average consumers.

 

[EricNau]

Isnt focusing on DVDs in 2007 kind of like focusing on the 8-Track during the early 80s?

DVDs are an aging distribution model - they will slowly give way to direct downloads to set top boxes like the TV or XBOX360.

Downloading content will ultimately become the distribution model in the future. What the MPAA will need to focus on is a way to allow that downloaded content to be moved from one device to another and to move that downloaded content to physical media like a DVD for storage.

That future is a very long way off. Digital music has been available for purchase online since 2000 (7 years ago), but is still only at 5% of music sales. This is the first time movies have been available for purchase online and you can bet that adoption will be even slower than the music market.

Even the majority adoption of Blu-Ray or HD DVD is several years away.

You'll be seeing the DVD for quite some time still.

 

[EricNau]

So you're saying that the average consumer is a thief. Personally I find that offensive, and it's exactly what pisses me off so much about DRM, especially considering that distributing pirated material requires more ingenuity than removing DRM.

In other words from my point of view the majority of average consumers are not and don’t want to be pirates, and all pirates are not average consumers.

Are you trying to tell me that, if DRM were completely removed from all movies, pirating would not increase?


I think the MPAA is trying to reach a compromise that helps consumers without hurting sales. Why is this s bad thing? ...Why do you need your ripped movies completely DRM free?

 

[joeshell383]

So you're saying that the average consumer is a thief. Personally I find that offensive, and it's exactly what pisses me off so much about DRM, especially considering that distributing pirated material requires more ingenuity than removing DRM.

In other words from my point of view the majority of average consumers are not and don’t want to be pirates, and all pirates are not average consumers.

Unfortunately, a lot of consumers do steal/would steal intellectual property/media content when given the opportunity/easy access.

To me your argument could be compared to "most costumers don't steal, so why should I lock the doors and install video cameras". It is to protect against those who DO steal. Again, media content is EVEN easier to steal and far more anonymous than walking into a b&m store. Sometimes, people aren't even aware of it, i.e. casual piracy (sharing software, CD's, etc.)

I'm all for DRM, and other anti-piracy mechanisms such as activation, when it really is fair and does not impede on my personal usage.

(Personally, I do believe most current anti-piracy mechanisms on the market are fine for general use as is.)

 

[PNW]

There is so much fuss about DRM on these boards, and I just don't get it. For normal users it really doesn't interfere with the usability/enjoyability of the files at hand

It does and it doesn't. I’d like to be able to buy a movie, rip it to a computer, and watch it where ever I like. For me, that means the ability to play it on a Mac, a Windoze box or a Linux box depending on where I am at the time. I currently can’t do that without technically breaking the law.

 

[Stella]

DRM doesn't have to restrict interoperability - its just like that for digital music. There can be a standard created.

HDVD / BlueRay has standard DRM. All players must support that DRM otherwise they don't play. A few weeks ago a patch was made to the encryption after it was cracked. The encryption key was changed and all software based players and hardware players must have a software update.

This is interoperability working - you can play your HDDVD on your computer, on your HDDVD player next to your TV - just like CDs.

Hopefully DRM for HD-DVD / BlueRay / digital movies - won't become fragmented like music. Still time to make a standard!

"Committed To Fair Use, Interoperability, DRM"

wait, what?

You can't be committed to fair use and committed to DRM. DRM restricts fair use and interoperability.

If I own a DVD and I want to make it so I can watch it on my iPod, I should be able to without having to break the DRM. If I can't, than it's restricting my fair use of something that I OWN.

 

[SPUY767]

Heck no, at that rate I would keep using Handbrake without DRM wrapper!

You have to believe that if if Apple were to include that functionality in iTunes that it would be many times faster with better quality than Handbrake. I've used a UB on Handbrake and it's slow even on y Mac Pro.

 

[SPUY767]

Contrast that to the outrageous behavior of the Zune, which ADDS DRM to the songs it squirts to other Zunes, whether the song was bought online or not.

Apple does the same thing by not letting users copy songs easily from their iPod to another computer or iPod. They have to do that or the RIAA will swoop down on them like a falcon on a helpless kitten.

 

[PNW]

HDVD / BlueRay has standard DRM. All players must support that DRM otherwise they don't play. A few weeks ago a patch was made to the encryption after it was cracked. The encryption key was changed and all software based players and hardware players must have a software update.

Talk about making it hard for the "average user". People are barely used to the idea of regularly updating their computers. Now they’ll need to update the firmware on their HD-DVD player every time the code gets cracked.

When DVD drives started appearing for computers the MPAA made the requirements for obtaining the key to write a DVD player application so onerous that no application with a GNU license could comply. It wasn’t until the key was cracked that you could play a commercial DVD on a Linux box. Given that, I think it is actually currently illegal to even play a DVD on a Linux box. If you’re going to exclude the open source community you can’t really claim to be interoperable.



Locking the store is one thing, but the MPAA’s actions are more like following me home from the drug store and setting up a camera in my kitchen just to make sure I don’t convert that one box of Sudafed I just bought into Meth.

 

[EagerDragon]

Makes sense to me, They are going to allow you to do legaly, what you are already doing illegaly.

Lots of people use handbrake and others to rip the movies, and those moviews now have zero DRM and zero restrictions on where they are played and by whom.

By allowing you to copy the movie while is is wrapped by DRM, they are allowing you to do the same, but they have a say of the number of copies, who gets to use it and on what device.

Overall, as long as it is not too restrictive sounds like a win for consumers and MPAA.

 

[Stella]

Plug your next gen DVD player 'into the internet' and let it automatically download patches. If you don't have internet then contact your manufacturer.

Yes, it is harder for the average user, but its better than the fragmented DRM for digital music, in the long term.

Its not as if the DRM is going to be cracked every month.

Talk about making it hard for the "average user". People are barely used to the idea of regularly updating their computers. Now they’ll need to update the firmware on their HD-DVD player every time the code gets cracked.