No. ALL that has been written in this thread is your OPINION. Where is the fact to back up the "MY WORD IS GOD'S LAW"?
I'm serious... I want to know.
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My mac crashes..... alot. please help me :(
- Thread starter thedommer
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No. ALL that has been written in this thread is your OPINION. Where is the fact to back up the "MY WORD IS GOD'S LAW"?
I'm serious... I want to know.
My word is God's law. Happy now?
My advice comes from years of experience reading about and helping people with Mac problems.
The evidence of who's advice was closer to the mark in this case can be seen in the results above. And I wasn't exactly alone in advising against an erase and install as a normal troubleshooting step.
Hmm.... I'd like to know the answer too.
FACTS please, NOT OPINIONS (ie, years of teaching, helping, blah blah blah)
Lots of High-ego arguments going on here
PS. I agree that re-installing an OS is NOT the first step in the trouble shooting process (should be the last actually) but it does help eliminate software issues - fairly quickly!
I think there are certain misunderstandings between some members here that's all. I think most of us know the same things only to follow different diagnostic procedures to reach the same goal.
To be more specific, kernel panics are mostly related to hardware failures and therefore has nothing more to do with softwares. Hence if your mac is suffering from kernel panic, it is best to determine if there's any hardware problem. However that said, if you have another clean OS X (freshly installed from box) installed on a second partition, rebooting into the that partition will not cause you any problem at all. In fact if you KP again, by method of elimination, you know it's most likely a hardware issues. Conversely, if you don't encounter any KP or crashes etc, chances are the problem is software-related. You either approach it with a hardware or software diagnostic route depending on the situation, both will eventually lead you to a conclusion although one of them will get you there sooner.
Every roads lead to Rome.
That said, I highly think a pre-requisite for any software diagnostic is to have a backup of clean OS X on another partition. Be it on a external hard drives for MB, MBP or the Imac, or an internal hd for a MP. This eliminates the need to reinstall OS from the dvd, and speeds up the diagnostic time.
In situations where KP is not experienced but crashes and sluggish performance, personally I would boot into the second OS and test the performance. Crashes are normally accounted by non-Leopard compatible softwares.
So I think IJ and GotPro are both right, albeit they approach a problem in different manner. I'm sure given chance they will reach the same diagnostic conclusion eventually.
In this case of the OP, since there's no KP, I highly suspect the problem is software related, although the answer can never be known since Apple's sending him a new rig.
It is also untrue to say the problem is hardware-related simply because Apple's issuing a new mac. That's simply not true. It's more like they have exhausted all advise and remedies that sending a new mac pro now seems like the better option to solving the problem at that given time.
The more softwares you installed, and the more they run concurrently the higher the chance of a crash. The OS is a robust platform but there are infinite possible bugs in leopard that have yet been found and patched. Such bugs will only manifest themselves under certain conditions that can only trigger by that particular set of softwares. Who knows? The suspects are numerous and sometimes the best solution is to return it for a new one once you've done your best to save yourself.
Exhaust all methods humanly possible by yourself. If it's way beyond you, let the genius takes care of it.
Pinpointing a problem is an art by itself, and you learn alot from the process. Different people have different methods.
Some are just faster than the rest that's all!
To be more specific, kernel panics are mostly related to hardware failures and therefore has nothing more to do with softwares. Hence if your mac is suffering from kernel panic, it is best to determine if there's any hardware problem. However that said, if you have another clean OS X (freshly installed from box) installed on a second partition, rebooting into the that partition will not cause you any problem at all. In fact if you KP again, by method of elimination, you know it's most likely a hardware issues. Conversely, if you don't encounter any KP or crashes etc, chances are the problem is software-related. You either approach it with a hardware or software diagnostic route depending on the situation, both will eventually lead you to a conclusion although one of them will get you there sooner.
Every roads lead to Rome.
That said, I highly think a pre-requisite for any software diagnostic is to have a backup of clean OS X on another partition. Be it on a external hard drives for MB, MBP or the Imac, or an internal hd for a MP. This eliminates the need to reinstall OS from the dvd, and speeds up the diagnostic time.
In situations where KP is not experienced but crashes and sluggish performance, personally I would boot into the second OS and test the performance. Crashes are normally accounted by non-Leopard compatible softwares.
So I think IJ and GotPro are both right, albeit they approach a problem in different manner. I'm sure given chance they will reach the same diagnostic conclusion eventually.
In this case of the OP, since there's no KP, I highly suspect the problem is software related, although the answer can never be known since Apple's sending him a new rig.
It is also untrue to say the problem is hardware-related simply because Apple's issuing a new mac. That's simply not true. It's more like they have exhausted all advise and remedies that sending a new mac pro now seems like the better option to solving the problem at that given time.
The more softwares you installed, and the more they run concurrently the higher the chance of a crash. The OS is a robust platform but there are infinite possible bugs in leopard that have yet been found and patched. Such bugs will only manifest themselves under certain conditions that can only trigger by that particular set of softwares. Who knows? The suspects are numerous and sometimes the best solution is to return it for a new one once you've done your best to save yourself.
Exhaust all methods humanly possible by yourself. If it's way beyond you, let the genius takes care of it.
Pinpointing a problem is an art by itself, and you learn alot from the process. Different people have different methods.
Some are just faster than the rest that's all!
To thedommer, Sorry you've had these problems... But in a way, I'm glad to see someone with these same issues, I've had little help from Apple, but maybe they're coming around, I'm making another appointment this week, I've been putting up with this crap for nearly a year. My Quicksilver, was stable as hell ( other than sounding like a swamp boat traversing the Everglades ), I've never done so many hard reboots as I've done on my Mac Pro... Between the freezes and pausing everything to spin up drives it has no business spinning up, I'm fed up with this box with any luck I can get it replaced also. The only good news I've seen with this recently is that some of the external usb2.0 drive enclosures that worked on my old g4 ( and on the Mac Pro when running XP Pro ) do work again in Leopard... ( I'm just adding that in in the event that someone with similar problems looks through this posting in the future ) Oh well, fingers crossed, I'm calling them up again also.
This is practical advice for about 1% for the Mac-owning population. I think one of the biggest problems with advice I frequently see on these boards is that it hugely overestimates the technical sophistication of the audience. Very few people are going to have the hardware or the knowledge to create an OS backup on a partition or an external drive. Rebooting on the install DVD is usually a quite sufficient test. It is also far from bullet-proof. I have personally experienced a Mac which ran well on an external clone of my internal drive, but kernel panicked frequently on the internal drive. The cure: replace the RAM. Unlikely? Perhaps, but that is what happened.
In situations where KP is not experienced but crashes and sluggish performance, personally I would boot into the second OS and test the performance. Crashes are normally accounted by non-Leopard compatible softwares.
So I think IJ and GotPro are both right, albeit they approach a problem in different manner. I'm sure given chance they will reach the same diagnostic conclusion eventually.
In this case of the OP, since there's no KP, I highly suspect the problem is software related, although the answer can never be known since Apple's sending him a new rig.
It is also untrue to say the problem is hardware-related simply because Apple's issuing a new mac. That's simply not true. It's more like they have exhausted all advise and remedies that sending a new mac pro now seems like the better option to solving the problem at that given time.
The more softwares you installed, and the more they run concurrently the higher the chance of a crash. The OS is a robust platform but there are infinite possible bugs in leopard that have yet been found and patched. Such bugs will only manifest themselves under certain conditions that can only trigger by that particular set of softwares. Who knows? The suspects are numerous and sometimes the best solution is to return it for a new one once you've done your best to save yourself.
Exhaust all methods humanly possible by yourself. If it's way beyond you, let the genius takes care of it.
Pinpointing a problem is an art by itself, and you learn alot from the process. Different people have different methods.
Some are just faster than the rest that's all!
As you say, Apple will generally exhaust all other possibilities before issuing a replacement authorization. I've had Apple suggest a reinstall of OSX for kernel panics on a new PowerBook. Fortunately, I did not follow their advice. I replaced the RAM, and all was well. Apple never suggested that at all, but they also did not offer to replace the Mac. They'd have run me around in many circles before we got there.
Speaking of crashes (generically, since it's not really clear whether we're talking kernel panics, unexpected quits, or some other issue), it is well worth knowing before getting too deeply into diagnostics whether you have installed software with a history of problems. First principle: Software should not be able to bring down the entire system unless it has installed a driver or a kernel extension. Most doesn't, so it is often wrong to assume that the problem is "software." Second, if you do have an ill-mannered piece of software installed, it's essential that you know this before you try much of anything. For one, perhaps removing it would be a wise first step. Second, if you do take the drastic measure of reinstalling OSX, then proceed to reinstall your software (and why would you not?), then you'll just be back where you started.
Finally, I believe it's urgent that if you are advising people who's level of knowledge and sophistication you do no know, that you be very specific on the steps you recommend. If you aren't, then you're essentially shoving them out into a minefield and telling them not to step on anything.
For those who frequent MacRumors and the ilk, I would assume while reading through the numerous threads on this board, one will gain enough technical knowledge and sophistication to make a clone OS... in time. I'm not advocating it is a must, although I do feel it's the optimal time-saving tool for my case.
Perhaps you have overestimated the sophistication of troubleshooting a mac, and underestimated the technical awareness of many board members here. I am not saying this condescendingly so please don't take it the wrong way. Looking from a broader perspective, a troubleshoot will eventually boils down to either a hardware or software problem, or in the rarest event a combination of both. So essentially it's one or the other. It's really not as tough as one might think.
Although I see many specific advice given for troubleshooting, I would instead urge people to analyze the problem they have at hand, develop the technical awareness and knowledge for troubleshooting, and proceed with their own troubleshooting procedures. Certain advise on this board can be heed and followed with satisfactory results, but at times mindless adherent to such advice may results in contrary outcome that is predominantly due to variance in problems faced at hand. The user should consciously be aware of the symptoms of their system problem and implement appropriate diagnostic methods, and be mindful about following advice that may or may not fit their bills. Knowledge is the key to this, and knowledge gained is information filtered through numerous seemingly "worked" advice in this board.
The only attribute in one's quest to troubleshoot a mac, or any other computer system successfully for the matter is knowledge, which is the primary purpose we are all here for. Fortunately for us, the OS X platform in which we dearly stand our feet on is a brawny podium, and Apple hardware quality is hands down top notch. Applecare though not the best customer service I've experienced, is nonetheless acceptable. Thus, even with a failure in troubleshooting your dear mac system, the result in most case is hardly fatal and you have a safety net (Applecare) to fall back on in that event.
Yes you would need to reinstall the software. That's the whole point in a clean OS system and software troubleshooting - the reinstallation of software incrementally until the old problem surfaces. That will then pinpoint the problematic software.
I'm very sorry, but since my knowledge of the user's problem is only limited to what he has described and he may or may not have missed some of the less obvious problem symptoms and failed to mention them, I would refrain from giving specific steps, but instead offer only a general guideline to him. Unless I'm sure my advice will work 100%, my advice can only be a form of a "suggestion" to him. I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything, because I can still suggest options to the user. It's more like a brainstorming session, instead of a doctor prescribing a cure.
I urge everyone to do the same too.
No one's advice is a miracle cure here, nor do we need a witch doctor to cure our macs. Knowledge is our surgical tools, so let us be our own doctor.
And then you reinstall OSX all over again... jolly. Truly, a great deal of information about problematic OSX software is readily available. Much unnecessary grief can be avoided, if the right questions are asked. More often than not, we're aren't getting this information. This is one of the reasons I generally council against reinstalls.
I certainly agree with you there.
Orpheus is right. These are just two different approaches. I personally don't like to destroy the evidence, I like to dissect it and search for what's broken. Reinstalling the OS takes the approach of starting from scratch and waiting for something, or possibly nothing, to go wrong. I prefer to look at each variable rather than change them all back to baseline.
definitely lots of good advice, some I don't like as much ... but this is really all futile argument. why don't we leave this poor guys thread alone now for relevant posts?
All this arguing is counterproductive to troubleshooting and degrades the quality of the forum!
I apologize to the OP. I hope you figure this out.
exactly! Wish we found an answer but as I said before, I'm passed that stage in my life. I just don't care anymore. make it work or send me a new one....
Ill let you guys know if this new one works fine.
I've been using the old one a lot lately as I have no choice and I find it is fairly reliable if I'm careful to stay away from mail and network transfers. also if I'm not multitasking its pretty stable. I spent the entire Saturday in Logic writing music and never had a single issue! however I did start it up today and had a program freeze almost immediately.