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However, this idea that all SpaceX is doing is going up and down is either woefully devoid of context or just plain wrong. Making a reusable rocket system is not something that NASA has been doing EVER let alone for 50 or 60 years. We could get into other innovations, but to keep it simple, your statements either come from a lack of knowledge or an intentional downplaying.

I haven't said that going up and down is all they're doing. As I said, they're bringing optimization (as you point out), of which a reusable rocket system is part of it (however, you're nor entirely correct. The Shuttle's SRB's were reusable. Also, albeit not a rocket per se, the Shuttle and its engines were reusable). This doesn't change that for now their missions are relatively simple. They're doing lots of work around those missions because, as you rightfully point out, they are focusing a lot on the optimization of everything.

In terms of the "true problem" I guess that depends on perspective. If finances weren't a "true problem" we never would have stopped exploring space to the degree we did once we got to the moon. So SpaceX focusing on how to make money so they can continue to push forward with space development and exploration to me is one of the largest "true problems" that face humanity. Propulsion is mass in/out until someone has a major physics breakthrough, which no one is thinking is going to happen anytime soon (hundreds of years+). So that is not really a "problem" as much as a limitation. Engine design is not a problem, in fact SpaceX and most any other aerospace company has commented on that being the least difficult thing in the rocket designing process. ECS...sure but that only matters if we have the funding to even make that important and even then there is a lot that can be done with what we have before it becomes a limiting factor. Again, just my hobbyist opinion.
Well, no arguing from me about the finances, but I obviously meant technical issues. Propulsion is expensive and limiting, and ECS is very difficult due to its constraints.

SpaceX has the great advantage of being free from the governmental appropriation process, although they have a severe budget limitation compared to NASA.
 
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When I go looking for life on Mars, I'll bring my G3 Mac. Back here on Earth, I'm sticking with my M1 Mini!
 
This is just total nonsense from Old Space.

SpaceX has demonstrated that the correct way isn’t to get crazy expensive parts, but to just build several from commodity parts (at a lower price for all of them than the price of building one from commodity parts) and test them while iterating on the design in rapid succession.
No, that's an incredibly short sighted and simplistic take. It works well for a constellation of thousands of internet-providing satellites. It doesn't work when you need 100% reliability on one system (like a crewed vehicle or Mars lander).

For one thing, no amount of redundancy can solve total accumulated radiation dose. When your first off the shelf CPU dies all your "spares" will also be dead or near death because they're all in the same radiation environment (yes, I do this for a living).

The RAD750 is not an iMac processor. These stories are ridiculous. It's a radiation-hardened, space-qualified processor that shares the architecture of the PowerPC 750. It's extremely good at what it does.
 
$200k for a processor is excessive but this is a modified chip. The architecture is based off a power Power PC but it’s not a power PC. name any computer component that can withstand between -67 and 257 degrees Fahrenheit (−55 and 125 degrees Celsius). That 200k was the cost for R&D to built it. That’s just my guess
Essentially. The $200k is the R&D and qualification divided by thousands of these that BAE has sold. The cost is high compared to i7s that sell millions of copies. It's incredibly low compared to building something brand new from a clean sheet design.

Besides, how much computing power do you guys think a Mars rover needs? It's just managing the hardware, recording data, and transmitting back home. The COTS alternative isn't an i7, it's some sort of embedded ARM core in an FPGA.
 
Old CPUs use bigger transistors, higher voltage and more current making far less likely of a bit getting flipped by radiaton.
Half true. Older CMOS parts (the off the shelf versions) perform poorly in terms of accumulated radiation, called total ionizing dose (TID) because they have thicker transistor oxides that trap more charge. However, that's one of the things the RAD750 hardens with its process.

The other half is single-event effects (simplest example is bit flips from cosmic rays) and that's easier with larger transistor geometries to some extent, but still has to be dealt with by the system architecture with redundancy and error detection and correction (far more than just a basic ECC RAM).
 
Nasa has never used the latest processors and they use hardened processors. You don't want a two old design processor failing on mars. There is no repair shop on mars. I loved my old PowerPC Mac's, like I love my current Intel I9 laptop processor. Remember if you live on the bleeding edge you can bleed. Hi M4, all the bugs worked out?
 
Just recycled a few recently.
At the time were fun.
Assume the rover doesn’t have a floppy drive either. :p
 
The article is kind of misleading. It's not an actual Mac processor, it is an RISC processor that Macs happened to use. It's had a wide use across many hardware platforms. The main reason they would use a processor like this, is because of power consumption, reliability, you use the processor or microcontroller that fits your needs.
 
Making a reusable rocket system is not something that NASA has been doing EVER let alone for 50 or 60 years. We could get into other innovations, but to keep it simple, your statements either come from a lack of knowledge or an intentional downplaying.

USAF and NACA had been studying orbital reusable spaceplanes since 1958, e.g. Dyna-Soar, but the first reusable stages did not fly until the advent of the US Space Shuttle in 1981.

20th century[edit]​


McDonnell Douglas DC-X used vertical takeoff and vertical landing
Perhaps the first reusable launch vehicles were the ones conceptualized and studied by Wernher von Braun from 1948 until 1956. The Von Braun Ferry Rocket underwent two revisions: once in 1952 and again in 1956. They would have landed using parachutes.[13][14]

The General Dynamics Nexus was proposed in the 1960s as a fully reusable successor to the Saturn V rocket, having the capacity of transporting up to 450–910 t (990,000–2,000,000 lb) to orbit.[15][16] See also Sea Dragon, and Douglas SASSTO.

The BAC Mustard was studied starting in 1964. It would have comprised three identical spaceplanes strapped together and arranged in two stages. During ascent the two outer spaceplanes, which formed the first stage, would detach and glide back individually to earth. It was canceled after the last study of the design in 1967 due to a lack of funds for development.[17]

NASA started the Space Shuttle design process in 1968, with the vision of creating a fully reusable spaceplane using a crewed fly-back booster. This concept proved expensive and complex, therefore the design was scaled back to reusable solid rocket boosters and an expendable external tank.[18][19]The Shuttle was more expensive to operate over its 30-year lifetime than an expendable launch system would have been.[citation needed]

In 1986 President Ronald Reagan called for an air-breathing scramjet National Aerospace Plane (NASP)/X-30. The project failed due to technical issues and was canceled in 1993.[20]

In the late 1980s a fully reusable version of the Energia rocket, the Energia II, was proposed. Its boosters and core would have had the capability of landing separately on a runway.[21]

In the 1990s the McDonnell Douglas Delta Clipper VTOL SSTO proposal progressed to the testing phase. The DC-X prototype demonstrated rapid turnaround time and automatic computer control.

In mid-1990, British research evolved an earlier HOTOL design into the far more promising Skylon design, which remains in development.

The commercial ventures, Rocketplane Kistler and Rotary Rocket, attempted to build reusable privately developed rockets before going bankrupt.[citation needed]

NASA proposed reusable concepts to replace the Shuttle technology, to be demonstrated under the X-33 and X-34 programs, which were both cancelled in the early 2000s due to rising costs and technical issues.
 
This is just total nonsense from Old Space.

SpaceX has demonstrated that the correct way isn’t to get crazy expensive parts, but to just build several from commodity parts (at a lower price for all of them than the price of building one from commodity parts) and test them while iterating on the design in rapid succession.

This is how cars were built early on. It’s how the Wright brothers worked. It’s how actual progress gets made.

Starting with 30 year old parts and then taking over a decade to run a test rarely leads to a successful conclusion. See, for example, Boeing Starliner vs SpaceX’s Dragon, or SpaceX’s Starship vs the SLS.
It’s the government
 
Anything launched into space has typically been in a multiple years long project, sometimes decade(s) long. It also usually costs a gazillion dollars.

What matters most is reliability and predictability... especially for something going millions (or billions) of miles away and not coming back that we can’t send astronauts to physically fix.

Most of the closed loop systems aboard aircraft, spacecraft, submarines, weapons and similar applications have very old, proven, but mundane processors and operating systems aboard... the last thing you want is “the new kid on the block” when the stakes are so high. Although parts of it are modernized as needed, the ECU in a typical car has the processing power no more than a Texas Instruments calculator... some of the software in Boeing and Airbus jets is virtually unchanged since the 1980s as well.
True. And it's not just reliability. You need expanded temperature ranges and radiation hardened components. The processors and support choosey are not just extended temperature range versions of the old parts used ina mac. They are fabbed on different processes and the actual circuitry on the ice is different. They add features such as better ECC and redundancy to deal with issues from radiation. Silicon on insulator is commonly used for example. These boards are very expensive to develop and they lag well behind the state of the art in bleeding edge consumer parts. Of you tried to put a consumer grade core i9 with
5-10 billion 10nm transistors into space, it would fail catstrophically.

Additionally, there are features desighned into the boards such as redundancies and the ability to isolate defective parts. This allows them to fix problems remotely and detect problems before they are critical. For example, a common redundancy is three independent computers. If one is not in the same state as the other two it shuts down (after that you have no fault tolerance, if one of the other two disagrees, you just know there a fault, but dont know which computer is right). How many times have you heard about a defective memory bank being disabled on a spacecraft or satellite? As you can see, the article is a bit simplistic.

Here's the wikipedia page on the board that's used in the rover.

 
Additionally, there are features desighned into the boards such as redundancies and the ability to isolate defective parts. This allows them to fix problems remotely and detect problems before they are critical. For example, a common redundancy is three independent computers. If one is not in the same state as the other two it shuts down (after that you have no fault tolerance, if one of the other two disagrees, you just know there a fault, but dont know which computer is right). How many times have you heard about a defective memory bank being disabled on a spacecraft or satellite? As you can see, the article is a bit simplistic.

Here's the wikipedia page on the board that's used in the rover.

I should also note, speed is probable not an issue. The rover creeps along inch by inch. Everything is in slow motion so there's plenty of time to process things.
 
It makes perfect sense. Use an older chip that has proven reliability. Since it does not have to run the OS, it won't be cluttered with anything but the code for the rover. The Hubble telescope originally went up with an Intel 286, which got upgraded to a pentium II in the early 2000s. Without Windows eating up the processor, the Hubble works beautifully.
 
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No wonder space program is so expensive and it's lucky to be a supplier of NASA. I wonder how much they charge for a bolt. I got the reliability argument but the cost? I should keep my original iPad to sell it to NASA 10-20 years from now.
 
Article is slightly misleading.

To expand on the differences mentioned: Perseverance (and Curiosity) uses the PowerPC RAD750, which is different than the PowerPC 750. It features 10.4 million transistors, not 6 million. It's clocked slower at 110-200 MHz, not 233 MHz. And while IBM manufactured the iMac processor, the RAD750 is manufactured by a British company (BAE Systems).
 
Precisely. Qualifications for use in a NASA mission must be at practically 0 chance of failure. There are many articles out there detailing NASA’s selection process. It’s intence.
Plus, the specific processor used in Perseverance has been hardened to more extreme temperature ranges, radiation, and other Martian environmental factors. No Apple Store on Mars where it can roll up for service :cool:
 
The Hubble telescope originally went up with an Intel 286, which got upgraded to a pentium II in the early 2000s. Without Windows eating up the processor, the Hubble works beautifully.
I am 90% sure Hubble still runs on the 486-based board installed in 1999 on SM3a.
 


NASA's Perseverance rover, which recently made history landing on the surface of Mars, is powered by the same processor used in an iMac more than 23 years old.

PIA23764-RoverNamePlateonMars-web.jpg

Image Credit: NASA


As reported by NewScientist (via Gizmodo), the rover includes the PowerPC 750 processor, the same chip used in the G3 iMac in 1998.

The main chipset is the same; however, there are differences between the version of the processor shipped in a consumer computer and the one exploring space. The processor in the rover is built to withstand temperatures between -67 and 257 degrees Fahrenheit (−55 and 125 degrees Celsius) and comes with an added $200,000 price tag.

The PowerPC 750 processor was ahead of the game for its time, featuring a single-core, 233MHz processor, 6 million transistors (compared to today's 16 billion in a single chip), and based on 32-bit architecture.

iMac-G3.jpg

Apple used PowerPC chips in Mac computers until it transitioned to Intel in 2005. Right now, Apple's going through a similar change, moving away from Intel to deploy its own custom Apple silicon in Macs.

Article Link: NASA Mars Perseverance Rover Uses Same PowerPC Chipset Found in 1998 G3 iMac

I did some work on the rover around 2017-2019... I think a lot of the good reasons are already mentioned, but there are many other reasons that NASA/JPL still uses the radiation-hardened RAD750 for its RCE (Rover Compute Element).

The stack

Both Curiosity and Perseverance use RAD750 as the processor for their 2 RCEs. The OS running on these processors is VxWorks 6 (an RTOS) developed by Wind River Systems. From what I know, VxWorks has really only been space tested by NASA on RAD series CPUs.


Heritage Hardware

Ask any lead engineer for a space or defense project and they will tell you this. Having heritage hardware is the most sure-fire way of eliminating risk. These are the hardware that have been used before and proven to have successfully accomplished the mission they were intended for. As such, using them significantly reduces time spent during initial project design stages like PDR or CDR. Reviewers really love to see heritage hardware that poses a limited risk during these stages. Additionally, no one really wants to waste a year of engineering time coming up with an entirely time V&V (Verification and Validation), and I&T (Integration and Testing) plan for a new processor. It's just much better to get the one from last time, make some changes to account for mission differences and concerns raised during the post-mission review and move on to doing something more useful like a new science instrument.

Heritage Software

A lot of the benefits from using heritage hardware also apply to using heritage software. Again, a lot of the RCE flight software (fsw), as well as the fsw for other modules, is inherited from the past rovers. It's not worth spending time porting this codebase to a new processor and introducing countless bugs that will take months if not years to find and fix. Again, this significantly eases the review process.

Processing Power

It's also important to consider that a lot of the processing-heavy work isn't really done on the RCE. There are multiple FPGAs onboard the rover (Virtex 5 mostly, I believe) that do the heavy lifting when it comes to photo processing, calculations, etc. All the RCE really is doing is just coordinating between different modules and supplying them with the necessary information. Because of that, the RCE doesn't even need to be all that powerful.

There are probably many other reasons that I don't recall, however I think this covers the big ones.
 
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