Native route tracking

[BlueMoon63]

Has anyone checked to see if the map coordinates are being stored somewhere in HealthKit? This is very intriguing to say the least. Would really love to know exactly how this works and hopefully it makes it into the production release.

The only remote possibility that I can come up with that won't come across as technical is this... when I only have my watch and go for a walk and add notes or todo's or play music (to name a few) - when I get home and connect back to the iphone, all of the information is added to the phone. Obviously, the watch is storing information until it can reconnect to the phone. Now, if the watch knows the coordinates and holds that information and basically an offline map, it would possibly be able to add markers that it stores until you get back and connect to your phone. Once it connects, those markers could be "over-layed" on the phones map app and coordinates to get the markers. Just can't believe the watch knows I am in another city. It wouldn't know my location.

Tomorrow I have the perfect test. I am going to golf and will leave my phone in the car and put it in airplane mode and set the workout to outdoor walk. If I finish after 2+ hours and the route shows the layout of the golf course, I will start to believe a little more. There is no wi-fi connect in this city and I have golfed at this course before, but that was a few months ago... we shall see.

 

[Julien]

There is something we are missing. It is a fact that you can't do accurate mapping without GPS or at the very least Wi-Fi- and cell phone triangulation. DARPA would pay millions of dollars per Watch to have a technology that could do what the Watch appears to be doing. And since DARPA is not buying up all the Watch's it is a safe bet that Apple doesn't have some 'magic' futuristic technology on its hands. Especially in a 'cheep' consumer grade product.

I'm sure that the 'unknown' piece of the puzzle will become known soon but in the meantime it is a conundrum.

 

[jgelin]

DARPA would pay millions of dollars per Watch to have a technology that could do what the Watch appears to be doing.

Agreed this would be a giant breakthrough in consumer device, so I don't think it will be as magical when we see what is under the magician's sleeve; however, right now that sleeve is the shiniest, most interesting thing in the room.

 

[Bob190]

I thought I read somewhere that the AW wifi/bluetooth chip also included FM radio which is obviously not utilized. Any possibility that it could somehow be used to provide your rough starting and ending positions? Didn't the now defunct Microsoft Spot service do something like this. Total speculation on my part ... don't even know if it is possible.

 

[Bob190]

Not sure how it knew I was at the high school and all my back and forth and running down shots. It was spot on. Still don't know if I trust this yet. There wasn't any wi-ifi connection.

I don't know that it would need a connection ... it would just need to see the wifi networks in the area. I would think there would be plenty around a school. It may be just storing the networks it finds with the date and time and later checking it against a database of known networks to determine your position ... again more speculation.

 

[BlueMoon63]

I just can't believe it knows where I am at but I like your speculation. This afternoon I am golfing and will see if the iPhone shows the route and layout of the course.

The iPhone will be off/airplane mode before I get to the course and will come back on after I have left.

I'll post my activity and the small route picture. It should look like a golf course I assume. Just not sure how well it will show up on the small picture.

 

[Julien]

I thought I read somewhere that the AW wifi/bluetooth chip also included FM radio which is obviously not utilized. Any possibility that it could somehow be used to provide your rough starting and ending positions?....

No FM is of no use. Cell phone triangulation works when your device can ping 3 different cell towers. It uses the timing/latency difference in the pings to determine your location. Wi-Fi mapping is just using the Wi-Fi's know location as a rough location point but can't provide mapping or coordinates.

It almost seems the Watch many have GPS built in. However the chips have never been identified and it make no sense that Apple would not have announced this.

Also it makes no sense that Apple did not cover the mapping in wOS 3.

And if Apple had came up with some non GPS, advanced algorithm, DARPA eluding mapping tech that is straight out of science fiction it seems Apple would have announced with full fanfare.

 

[tkermit]

No FM is of no use. Cell phone triangulation works when your device can ping 3 different cell towers. It uses the timing/latency difference in the pings to determine your location. Wi-Fi mapping is just using the Wi-Fi's know location as a rough location point but can't provide mapping or coordinates.

It can, if you have access to a database that contains the location of several access points in the area. Then there exist multiple techniques for arriving at an estimate of your exact position, such as using the signal's time of flight or RSSI in combination with trilateration. It's possible that the AW continuously records a timestamp together with the signal strength (and possibly other information about the signal) of all networks it sees and then later, when it is reconnected to the iPhone, is able to look up the coordinates for the corresponding access points in a database and uses that to calculate your position at each moment in time.

 

[jgelin]

I went on a walk around the neighborhood this morning to see how well it kept to my streets. The little map that I had was accurate enough to even determine where I crossed from one side of the street to the other. Also, the watch was able to pull weather data and show me conditions, temp and humidity at the end of the workout even though it was started and ended with no connection whatsoever to the phone. I tried taking a screenshot of this but apparently that was not possible since the phone was not connected lol.
I have a feeling that Wifi Triangulation could be in use, but would it be able to keep up if you say went down a public trail here, which used to be railroad tracks and has minimal connection to Wifi as homes and businesses are quite some distance from this trail. I will need to bike it and find out but it has been much too hot here in FL to test it.

EDIT: has anyone tried to use this with no phone and the watch in airplane mode? Surely if the watch is using any Wifi or even Bluetooth it would then be turned off. However, on my iPhone I do not think that location services are turned off with airplane mode, as the icon is still there so maybe this is the same on the watch and would give us some insight into if the watch is using WIFI or a magic GPS chip they installed with OS3 instead.

 

[Buzz2]

I am completely baffled that Apple didn't talk abou this on WWDC and at the same time none of the major tech sites including MacRumors isn't talking about this on their front pages.

 

[Bob190]

I am completely baffled that Apple didn't talk abou this on WWDC and at the same time none of the major tech sites including MacRumors isn't talking about this on their front pages.

I know .. if the date today wasn't 6/21/16 .. I would have thought it was April Fools Day.

Anyway .. it very well might be that this is a "beta-only" feature that they aren't ready to disclose publicly yet since it may or may not make it into the final production release this fall depending on how it works during testing. Just pure speculation of course.

 

[Julien]

I know .. if the date today wasn't 6/21/16 .. I would have thought it was April Fools Day.....

Most places it is 21/6/2016.

 

[Bob190]

It can, if you have access to a database that contains the location of several access points in the area. Then there exist multiple techniques for arriving at an estimate of your exact position, such as using the signal's time of flight or RSSI in combination with trilateration. It's possible that the AW continuously records a timestamp together with the signal strength (and possibly other information about the signal) of all networks it sees and then later, when it is reconnected to the iPhone, is able to look up the coordinates for the corresponding access points in a database and uses that to calculate your position at each moment in time.

After seeing this ... I think you hit the nail on the head. Never realized something like this existed. It kind of makes sense that everything could be easily calculated .. especially for running since the distance between points (wifi networks) would be known as calculated by steps and stride length. Obviously this wouldn't work for trail runs, etc., but still pretty impressive.

https://wigle.net/map

 

[jgelin]

After seeing this ... I think you hit the nail on the head. Never realized something like this existed. It kind of makes sense that everything could be easily calculated .. especially for running since the distance between points (wifi networks) would be known as calculated by steps and stride length. Obviously this wouldn't work for trail runs, etc., but still pretty impressive.

https://wigle.net/map

If it is using this technology then according to this map there are glaring spots with no coverage near me: no dots to be found on some nearby neighborhoods and a park. I will walk these this evening to see if that area is able to be mapped via the watch.
The place it mapped earlier today was full of red dots. Below is a dead zone I want to test in.

 

[Julien]

While I can't speak for BlueMoon63 he/she did say "...I live out in the woods...very far away and outside city wifi...". Unless BlueMoon63 is telling us wrong he/she seems to know that there is no Wi-Fi spots and certainly not likely to be multiple Wi-Fi's.

 

[Bob190]

While I can't speak for BlueMoon63 he/she did say "...I live out in the woods...very far away and outside city wifi...". Unless BlueMoon63 is telling us wrong he/she seems to know that there is no Wi-Fi spots and certainly not likely to be multiple Wi-Fi's.

BlueMoon63 said this:

"Not sure how it knew I was at the high school and all my back and forth and running down shots. It was spot on. Still don't know if I trust this yet. There wasn't any wi-ifi connection."

I don't think a connection to Wi-Fi is needed, just that the network is available. Surely there are probably multiple routers and access points near a high school.

 

[Julien]

I'm an AppleSeed tester and while we get iOS 10 we don't get wOS 3 to test. I wish we did so I could do some objective comparison testing in known areas under controlled conditions and report what it appears and how it seems to be doing this.

 

[BlueMoon63]

Well, I am a HE and I can safely report that my latest test did not work as far as getting a route. I went golfing today in Minneapolis at a golf course that has no houses around it and maybe had wi-fi in the club house, I don't know. Before I got to the course, I put my iphone in airplane mode and set my watch to an outdoor walk. After almost two hours on the course, I left and eventually took my phone out of airplane mode and I never got a route at all. There is no small box with a route or even a blank box - nothing.

Would it have been any different if I left my iphone in the car but not in airplane mode? I don't know... If I took it with me, I am sure it would have worked.

The only thing this proved was what I had to believe was true and that is the watch doesn't have any gps but it may have some type of wi-fi triangulation work going on and maybe would communicate with my iphone, but that was off.

I still don't understand how it knew I was at a basketball court in another city but my iphone was back home connected to the internet so who knows.

The good news was that I never lost my heart rate once. I must have checked my watch 100 times and it was always showing a heart rate where before it was there or it was at 54 or measuring. When I finished, I used my exercise pulse app to see my heart rate the entire two hours and it never lost the heart rate once. In the past, I have had good success with the heart rate, but golfing usually had about 5-10 cases where it dropped to 54 or was "measuring" whenever I looked... It never did that once with OS3 beta 1 and the workout screen was much nicer with the stats and fonts and heart rate display. My results were confirmed when my app showed that I went two hours without once losing the heart rate and it was 85 and humid and it is hard to keep the watch from sliding - even when tight.

 

[Julien]

....There is no small box with a route or even a blank box - nothing.....The only thing this proved was what I had to believe was true and that is the watch doesn't have any gps but it may have some type of wi-fi triangulation work going on and maybe would communicate with my iphone, but that was off.

I still don't understand how it knew I was at a basketball court in another city but my iphone was back home connected to the internet so who knows.....

Thanks, while still a little mysterious at lest it is less likely to be some type of all knowing 'witchcraft' at work.

 

[teidon]

Would it have been any different if I left my iphone in the car but not in airplane mode? I don't know... If I took it with me, I am sure it would have worked.

The default behavior is that when you put your phone in airplane mode, the watch also goes to airplane mode. Was the watch in airplane mode? In airplane mode all the radios are disabled, so it can't use wifi to find it's location in the world.

My guestimation for how the watch can map the route is that it uses the known locations of wifi networks and then using data from accelerometer and gyroscope it makes good guesses on which route you traveled to get from one wifi network's range to the next. All the data crunching probably happens on the phone, the watch just collects the data.

 

[Bob190]

The default behavior is that when you put your phone in airplane mode, the watch also goes to airplane mode.

Great point teidon.

Curious BlueMoon63 .. what was the name of the golf course?

You should check it out on this map which details known Wi-Fi networks to see if coverage was indeed sparse in the area.

https://wigle.net/map

I am pretty convinced that WatchOS 3 is using some sort of Wi-Fi positioning to get the route data. Probably explains why only a small postage stamp size map is available since from that resolution it would always look pretty accurate. If you could zoom in, it probably would appear a lot less accurate.

 

[BlueMoon63]

The default behavior is that when you put your phone in airplane mode, the watch also goes to airplane mode. Was the watch in airplane mode? In airplane mode all the radios are disabled, so it can't use wifi to find it's location in the world.

My guestimation for how the watch can map the route is that it uses the known locations of wifi networks and then using data from accelerometer and gyroscope it makes good guesses on which route you traveled to get from one wifi network's range to the next. All the data crunching probably happens on the phone, the watch just collects the data.

That is a very good point and it didn't even cross my mind as it had the red icon for out of range... Duh. I should have just shut it off and put in my bag. Dumb.

I'll test with more obvious choices. Also, the golf course was Francis Gross GC. There isn't a single house by this course - just trees and a park and a cemetery and the highway.

 

[profets]

Just came across this thread. Crazy stuff. Always wanted to have some form of routes/map visible for long runs, but never expected it without the phone.

 

[Bbqthis]

Stop talking about this, it's making me want to load the watchOS 3 beta and I've been good and content with just iOS 10 on a second 6S that I have...

 

[Bob190]

Anyone have any further experience with this ... good or bad?