Native route tracking

[BlueMoon63]

I finally had a chance to try this again. Although it was 90 outside and super humid, I decided to take a walk in a new development by my house in the woods. This new development has about three houses so far, but they are 5 acre pieces of land so the closest to the road was maybe 300 feet up in the pine trees. The road is a dead end, so you walk in and circle back over your previous tracks so I walked in on the left side and walked out on the right side when looking at the route.

Left my phone at home so no chance it was involved in the routing. It was on.

I'll be dipped that it knew the route almost perfectly. Coming out of the neighborhood is a cul-de-sac that in the route looks like a little bend outwards, but it seemed to know I walked on two sides of the road and it knew I started a few blocks away from the neighborhood.

Also had another perfect heart rate reading - and I walk fast. About 4mph typically and did I say it was about 90 and super humid.

 

[Julien]

Is there any way to expand the map or better yet open it in Maps? If not seems almost useless to have such a microscopic map anyway.

 

[BlueMoon63]

Is there any way to expand the map or better yet open it in Maps? If not seems almost useless to have such a microscopic map anyway.

Doesn't appear to be and this is a first beta. We can hope. Still not sure how it knew my route. I might be more impressed that it seems to have fixed the heart rate reading.

 

[goodyear77]

Very interesting discussion! It doesn't seem possible the location tracking could be done with such accuracy with triangulation, no way that can detect crossing the road along the same vector.

Here's a theory (wait, need to put my tinfoil hat on, ok, there we go):

Could it be that the Apple Watch v1 does include a GPS chip, but in fear that it would ruin the battery life Apple decided not to activate it? And now that they have collected a years worth of user statistics, they know they can use a bit more of the system resources and still provide a full day charge, they'll include GPS (officially) in the Apple Watch v2 and have enabled it in the watchOS 3 beta release since they need to test those features as well?

To further dive into the deep end of the conspiracy theory pool, I don't think they will enable it for Apple Watch v1 users in the final watchOS 3.0 release, they'll use the beta releases to collect statistics so the Apple Watch v2 is working well when it's time for release...

What do you think, too out there?

 

[dschulian]

Very interesting discussion! It doesn't seem possible the location tracking could be done with such accuracy with triangulation, no way that can detect crossing the road along the same vector.

Here's a theory (wait, need to put my tinfoil hat on, ok, there we go):

Could it be that the Apple Watch v1 does include a GPS chip, but in fear that it would ruin the battery life Apple decided not to activate it? And now that they have collected a years worth of user statistics, they know they can use a bit more of the system resources and still provide a full day charge, they'll include GPS (officially) in the Apple Watch v2 and have enabled it in the watchOS 3 beta release since they need to test those features as well?

To further dive into the deep end of the conspiracy theory pool, I don't think they will enable it for Apple Watch v1 users in the final watchOS 3.0 release, they'll use the beta releases to collect statistics so the Apple Watch v2 is working well when it's time for release...

What do you think, too out there?

Sorry, but bad news: there is definitely no gps chip inside v1:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+Watch+X-ray+Teardown/41323

 

[profets]

If I had to make a very simple guess about it, I'd think they're doing a very good job of knowing your pace (and therefor distance) and then roughly knowing your direction or turns with the accelerometer and gyroscope. I feel like I had seen some form of Indoor Positioning System being based on this but it wasn't very accurate. Maybe Apple has done some solid work here. Anyway, really only possible to put it on a map if it knows your start and end points, and it seems some people have tried preventing that from happening and it still worked? Strange either way. I hope it means that more routing and possible GPS are coming to a future Apple Watch - though if they're doing this much work to make routing happen without GPS then maybe GPS isn't coming so soon.

I think I'm going to go for a run soon with the watch on airplane mode, phone left at home and an unknown starting point to see what it does.

 

[Julien]

Sorry, but bad news: there is definitely no gps chip inside v1:
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+Watch+X-ray+Teardown/41323

Keep in mind there is 1 chip not identified and made by Maxim and Maxim does also make GPS chips. Now can I take my hat off?

 

[profets]

^LOL

Just tried a short run. Put the watch into airplane mode well ahead of time. Walked a few blocks, then did a run using the workout app, and when I got home I ended the run while still on airplane mode. Waited 2-3 minutes before turning airplane mode off, then it connected and the map just shows a pin for my location, but no route at all.

Going to try the same thing again tomorrow, but once I get a few blocks away I'll turn airplane mode off. See if any routing information is different with radios on.

 

[BlueMoon63]

I did the same route as yesterday and this time I brought my phone.

Much cooler and less humidity. Here is the route difference as well. Interesting how close the distance with and without the watch. May have been identical if I had timed the same.

First is without the phone. Second is with

the phone. Neither is great if you can't increase the size of the route.

[doublepost=1466948941][/doublepost]

^LOL

Just tried a short run. Put the watch into airplane mode well ahead of time. Walked a few blocks, then did a run using the workout app, and when I got home I ended the run while still on airplane mode. Waited 2-3 minutes before turning airplane mode off, then it connected and the map just shows a pin for my location, but no route at all.

Going to try the same thing again tomorrow, but once I get a few blocks away I'll turn airplane mode off. See if any routing information is different with radios on.

I messed this up as well. Putting the phone in airplane mode shuts off everything on the watch. Check above about one page back.

 

[goodyear77]

One way to definitively check if the watch is using the gyroscope and/or other sensors to map the route is to leave the phone at home (don't put it in flight mode, just leave it home), and then take the car a few kilometers to a location where you start your walk/run. If you get accurate location info on your route then the watch MUST have an onboard GPS since the car ride would mess with any other sensors. Any takers?

 

[profets]

One way to definitively check if the watch is using the gyroscope and/or other sensors to map the route is to leave the phone at home (don't put it in flight mode, just leave it home), and then take the car a few kilometers to a location where you start your walk/run. If you get accurate location info on your route then the watch MUST have an onboard GPS since the car ride would mess with any other sensors. Any takers?

I'll try it in the morning. Was planning on it actually.

 

[anthonymoody]

Love the sleuthing. Keep it up guys thanks!

 

[teidon]

I'll try it in the morning. Was planning on it actually.

Just keep in mind that if you go past a wifi network your watch instantly knows where in the world you are with roughly 50 meter accuracy.

E: Removed roughly one zero.

 

[BlueMoon63]

One way to definitively check if the watch is using the gyroscope and/or other sensors to map the route is to leave the phone at home (don't put it in flight mode, just leave it home), and then take the car a few kilometers to a location where you start your walk/run. If you get accurate location info on your route then the watch MUST have an onboard GPS since the car ride would mess with any other sensors. Any takers?

That's what I did above. I took just my watch into a new development I have never been in and left my phone at home. I was outside the city wi-if as well as this is out In the woods. I guess it is remotely possible that one of the three houses had wi-if close enough, but they were all on 5 acre lots and very far away. At minimum, maybe 100 yards but that seems unlikely. Most driveways out here are at least 300-500 feet long.

I do not think GPS is in this watch though and it might be wi-if and maybe data markers where I am. I can tell you this much, this watch and my iPhone's have never been in this neighborhood before. Beyond that, I really don't care that much. We will find out eventually.

Last week, I left my phone at home and drove to another city and went to a high school to shoot hoops. The high school was about half a mile away. The route knew where I was somehow. Only wi-wi-fi is possible.

 

[goodyear77]

That's what I did above. I took just my watch into a new development I have never been in and left my phone at home. I was outside the city wi-if as well as this is out In the woods. I guess it is remotely possible that one of the three houses had wi-if close enough, but they were all on 5 acre lots and very far away. At minimum, maybe 100 yards but that seems unlikely. Most driveways out here are at least 300-500 feet long.

I do not think GPS is in this watch though and it might be wi-if and maybe data markers where I am. I can tell you this much, this watch and my iPhone's have never been in this neighborhood before. Beyond that, I really don't care that much. We will find out eventually.

Last week, I left my phone at home and drove to another city and went to a high school to shoot hoops. The high school was about half a mile away. The route knew where I was somehow. Only wi-wi-fi is possible.

BlueMoon63, what we're you're results, did the watch track your movements accurately or did it give you a single position or nothing at all?

 

[Julien]

BlueMoon63, what we're you're results, did the watch track your movements accurately or did it give you a single position or nothing at all?

Look at post #42, #59 and other earlier posts in this same thread.

EDIT: I see you liked the post so you must have read it.

 

[profets]

Tried another short run. No Airplane mode this time. But I didn't do anything with the watch until I was a few hundred meters away and no where near wifi points that I've connected to in the past.

Did the run, and then a few hundred meters before reaching home I ended the run and took the watch off and walked the rest of the way. Watch was disconnected from wifi the entire run.

Somehow, the map still has a route, with relatively accurate starting and ending points.

Wanted to try another short run, but I was tight on time.

edit: looking at the route a bit blown up the way it posted, it looks like there's points along the way connected by straight lines. Also looks like it was bit more accurate than I thought with the start and end points. Not perfect, but somewhat close.

I'm going to take a wild guess that maybe, when I left home and it had no connectivity, that it started to track my movement somehow using accelerometer & gyro - similar to how it might be during the run?

 

[Julien]

Tried another short run. No Airplane mode this time. But I didn't do anything with the watch until I was a few hundred meters away and no where near wifi points that I've connected to in the past.

Did the run, and then a few hundred meters before reaching home I ended the run and took the watch off and walked the rest of the way. Watch was disconnected from wifi the entire run.

Somehow, the map still has a route, with an accurate starting point, but finishing point at home - not where I actually ended the run.....

Since you stared at your home you were probably near a WiFi. When you were running did you pass any other WiFi's?

What we need is the following tests that have courses with a good amount of dynamics (turns) and NOT on mapped roads. Also leaving the iPhone at home/work (NOT in Airplane mode) if possible to avoid any info being passed to the Watch.

• Starting near a WiFi and running a course near known WiFis
• Starting near a WiFi and then positively running a course out of WiFi range and then returning to the WiFi starting point
• Starting and running a course that is positively out of any WiFi range

 

[profets]

Since you stared at your home you were probably near a WiFi. When you were running did you pass any other WiFi's? What we need is the following tests that have courses with a good amount of dynamics (turns).

• Starting near a WiFi and running a course near known WiFis
• Starting near a WiFi and then positively running a course out of WiFi range and then returning to the WiFi starting point
• Starting and running a course that is positively out of any WiFi range

100% out of range of known wifi networks that my devices connect to. I mean, maybe it picks up a few known networks that Apple knows about? That would seem quite strange for Apple to be tracking Wifi networks though.

I think on a regular run, starting/ending at home it's using wifi for the start/end point, pace/duration to get distance, and then accelerometer/gyro to gauge turns. I'd almost guess that the points on the maps that are visible are from where I make a turn of some sort, whether slight or 90 degrees. See that bit of zig zag half way through? It almost looks like I crossed the street, but I know that point there's a zig zag in the sidewalk where I run.

Further guess - the watch knew at one point I was at home - maybe when it loses connectivity (when I left the house, hadn't started the workout) it starts attempting to track it's location using distance and turns. And then even with the workout ended it continued to do so until it was connected to wifi again.

 

[Julien]

100% out of range of known wifi networks that my devices connect to. I mean, maybe it picks up a few known networks that Apple knows about? That would seem quite strange for Apple to be tracking Wifi networks though.....

No, WiFi tracking/location is a science and used by Apple, Google and must companies. WiFi's are 'known' by all and there are databases that contain their location and other information. By 'known' Apple means permission to connect. However Apple probably 'knows' (and can see) all the WiFi locations in other homes near yours.

 

[Bob190]

100% out of range of known wifi networks that my devices connect to. I mean, maybe it picks up a few known networks that Apple knows about? That would seem quite strange for Apple to be tracking Wifi networks though.

Check out this for your address ..

https://wigle.net/map

And I am sure Apple has much better data than this. Think about it, everytime an iPhone connects to wifi, the Lat/Lon are known as is the MAC address of the router/access point. So the database would be vast and very comprehensive I am sure.

The watch doesn't need to connect to anything to know where it is, just needs to pass a known wifi network.

 

[profets]

No, WiFi tracking/location is a science and used by Apple, Google and must companies. WiFi's are 'known' by all and there are databases that contain their location and other information. By 'known' Apple means permission to connect. However Apple probably 'knows' (and can see) all the WiFi locations in other homes near yours.

Ah yes, so it could be using that to know rough location without the need to connect?

 

[Julien]

Ah yes, so it could be using that to know rough location without the need to connect?

Yes, and keep in mind a WiFi can be 'seen' a lot farther away that it can be connected to. Also by measuring the relative signal strength you can get an idea how far away you are. Of course this is only a radius but if you can put 2 or 3 of these together you can start to build a track.

 

[profets]

Great points. Tomorrow I'm doing a run in town, definite route where I've never connected to wifi networks but there should be plenty of Wifi networks visible while running. I'll do it all without the phone and see how the routing looks after.

Regardless though, I think it's awesome that they're putting so much effort into getting routes from runs/workouts from the watch. Makes me think they're preparing for potential GPS in a future watch.

 

[goodyear77]

Look at post #42, #59 and other earlier posts in this same thread.

EDIT: I see you liked the post so you must have read it.

Well, in #44 BlueMoon63 may have put the watch in airplane mode, and in #59 there seems to have been some mixup as well they way I read it, I might be wrong. Just suggested a new and controlled test based on the information collected to this point, that's all.