Netflix (and HDR content in general) on Sony Bravia with ATV 4K

[Michelasso]

With Netflix on Sony Bravia with LCD panels (no Oled) the HDR content is far too often miserable. There is a sort of "fog effect" on dark scenes, especially when a luminous source (like an oil lamp) is present in the screen.

Have anyone with one LCD Bravia TV noticed any improvement watching HDR content from Netflix using the Apple TV 4K? Also, how's the vision of HDR content in general? I know right now everything gets shown as HDR, but in the next version of tvOS (and currently in the beta, for whoever has it) it's possible to play in HDR only the HDR titles.

 

[priitv8]

Have you played with picture profiles? I use cinema pro, for instance, as all others are far too cold (blue).
Also, I've toned down both backlight and contrast.
You can also try to change the gamma slider one notch in either direction.
I am very happy with HDR pic from all built-in apps as well as from external sources (i have UBP-X800 and aTV 4K).
Can not say anything about Netflix app, as I do not use their services.
PS the HDR quality is somewhat dependent on your Bravia's model and year.
The adjustment options differ between Android TV 6 and 7.

 

[Michelasso]

I have the EU KD-49XD8099, which should be equivalent to the US XBR X800D. And yes, I hate played with all settings, I am a regular in the Sony Bravia's forums. Netflix is simply a disaster. There are people with the XE90 (which is the best Bravia 4K HDR for the buck) complaining about Netflix as well.

So I just need to know if in general the HDR image elaborated by the ATV 4K is better than what we get with the native Android apps in the LCD Bravia TVs.

Apart that just today Amazon finally released the Amazon Prime app for Apple TV and so I may get it only for this. The one in Android is awful, the audio stutters, the voice goes out of sync, it's slow and plenty of issues like this.

 

[priitv8]

I did try the Amazon Prime on my Bravia shortly, and what I could see (the Grand Tour mostly) was very good.
So I really do not grasp what might be the problem with yours.
BTW I just yesterday did a comparison of a movie played back from Bravia's built in Video app (USB-HDD) and aTV 4K. I do not see any major difference between them.
At the end of the day (unless there is really a bad bug in Netflix software) I would not expect miracles between the two sources (built-in vs aTV 4K). Can you connect any other HDR source to your Bravia, by any chance?
Have you tried the downloaded clips? Or YouTube HDR Channel? Yours is on Android 7, so it should play YT HDR.

 

[Michelasso]

Nope, the vp9.2 profile (the one for HDR In YouTube) is broken in Android 7.0. If I download the videos from YouTube only Plex plays them as HDR. But not with BT.2020 colour space, which makes them awful. All other media players I tested (Sony's Video first of all) don;t even switch the TV to HDR.

That's why I wonder if there is anything wrong with HDR in Netflix. The Grand Tour, with the native Amazon app, looks indeed amazing on my TV as well. Only that the audio stutters. I have just received today an email from Amazon about this issue, that I opened 6 weeks ago.

 

[priitv8]

Nope, the vp9.2 profile (the one for HDR In YouTube) is broken in Android 7.0. If I download the videos from YouTube only Plex plays them as HDR. But not with BT.2020 colour space, which makes them awful. All other media players I tested (Sony's Video first of all) don;t even switch the TV to HDR.

You are right, my bad! It indeed is flawed.
On the other hand, the built-in Video app always swithces to correct mode. Always has. You must be sure, that the metadata are correct inside the file, though. These are the HDR pieces. Although Transfer Characteristics and Color Primaries are the ones that make a difference.

 

[Michelasso]

@priitv8 That's cool. How do you get that info? Which program are you using? I am using ffmpeg for some video info and conversion, but it reports far too much stuff and I get lost. Otherwise I use the info window in VLC, but that is too scarce, not so detailed.

Still, I can assure you that Video does not switch to HDR when playing YouTube downloaded videos. I tested it again just yesterday. Switching manually the TV to HDR ON/BT.2020 then the videos look great (again, much better than Netflix).

 

[priitv8]

@priitv8 That's cool. How do you get that info? Which program are you using? I am using ffmpeg for some video info and conversion, but it reports far too much stuff and I get lost. Otherwise I use the info window in VLC, but that is too scarce, not so detailed.

Still, I can assure you that Video does not switch to HDR when playing YouTube downloaded videos. I tested it again just yesterday. Switching manually the TV to HDR ON/BT.2020 then the videos look great (again, much better than Netflix).

I use Mediainfo: https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo
As for clips downloaded from YT - it must be a metadata issue.
1. How do you get them from YT?
2. In what format?
I use 4K Video Downloader. If I let it download MP4 file, I only get the AVC stream - meaning no HDR
If I ask for MKV - I get the VP9 but that file does not contain any such metadata either.
This is what my downloaded file contains:

General
Unique ID                                : 86503985345348887664821099025655893339 (0x41140FC2F4C3D2776C5C3B38F1638D5B)
Complete name                            : /Users/priit/Downloads/Movies/Real 4K HDR 50fps  Mont Blanc winter sports in HDR.mkv
Format                                   : Matroska
Format version                           : Version 4 / Version 2
File size                                : 255 MiB
Duration                                 : 1mn 28s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 24.3 Mbps
Writing application                      : Lavf56.40.101
Writing library                          : Lavf56.40.101

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : VP9
Codec ID                                 : V_VP9
Duration                                 : 1mn 28s
Bit rate                                 : 23.6 Mbps
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 50.000 fps
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.057
Stream size                              : 248 MiB (97%)
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : Vorbis
Format settings, Floor                   : 1
Codec ID                                 : A_VORBIS
Duration                                 : 1mn 28s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 128 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 44.1 KHz
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Stream size                              : 1.34 MiB (1%)
Writing application                      : Google
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No

Video app does not even support VP9 codec, afaik. It supports only HEVC Main10 for HDR, as per standard. As Sony still has no support for DoVi, it can only handle HDR10 (PQ) and HLG flavors of HDR. I can assure you it will switch. Always has. Since Android TV 5.x
YouTube in general is not a reference. Another walled garden (this time Alphabet Inc's) with proprietary codecs and limitations for download formats. The above clip, for instance, can only be downloaded in 1080p in AVC/MP4 format.
Try with this file instead: http://4kmedia.org/sony-bravia-uhd-hdr-4k-demo/
NB! Use the blue Download button, not the YT preview!
Copy it to USB stick or drive and enjoy!

 

[Michelasso]

I use Mediainfo: https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo
As for clips downloaded from YT - it must be a metadata issue.
1. How do you get them from YT?
2. In what format?

1. I use youtube-dl. I do many thing via Terminal but I am not sure how I installed it anymore. I had Macports installed, probably from there.
2. I download the videos with the option -f337+m4a. 337 is the YouTube format for v9.2 (HDR), 2160p@60fps. youtube-dl downloads both streams and then it merges them into a .mkv file.

Video app does not even support VP9 codec, afaik. It supports only HEVC Main10 for HDR, as per standard. As Sony still has no support for DoVi, it can only handle HDR10 (PQ) and HLG flavors of HDR. I can assure you it will switch. Always has. Since Android TV 5.x

Well, Video does support the plain (SDR) vp9 codec. The problema I have is that not even Kodi switches the TV in HDR with vp9.2 videos. Only Plex. But then Plex doesn;t apply the BT.2020 colour space, which is there (I am using Mediainfo 1.71 free version):

Spoiler: vp9.2 metadata

General
Unique ID : 138883594412044190869643931186733664135 (0x687C01E021B8F71BF0854336AA424787)
Complete name : /Users/Michele/Real 4K HDR 60fps - Swordsmith in HDR-KwleMSuezjY.mkv
Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 4 / Version 2
File size : 179 MiB
Duration : 1 min 26 s
Overall bit rate : 17.4 Mb/s
Writing application : Lavf57.71.100
Writing library : Lavf57.71.100
ErrorDetectionType : Per level 1

Video
ID : 1
Format : VP9
Codec ID : V_VP9
Duration : 1 min 26 s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 60.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Language : English
Default : Yes
Forced : No
Color range : Full
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

I am not sure how it works with the last two lines in bold.

YouTube in general is not a reference. Another walled garden (this time Alphabet Inc's) with proprietary codecs and limitations for download formats. The above clip, for instance, can only be downloaded in 1080p in AVC/MP4 format.
Try with this file instead: http://4kmedia.org/sony-bravia-uhd-hdr-4k-demo/
NB! Use the blue Download button, not the YT preview!
Copy it to USB stick or drive and enjoy!

Ah, don't worry. I have a full folder with HDR demos downloaded from outside YouTube! And they look great indeed.

About Google and its cheap proprietary vp9 format you're preaching to the choir. I know that Apple doesn't even support it at all, resulting in most YouTube videos at 1080p in the ATV 4K. All this mess would be fixed if Google adopted HEVC, like all real men do!

 

[tonyr6]

I don't really like HDR and I don't see the big deal. All it does is lower the contrast and push up the colors. Big deal. I always liked neutral color, low brightness and standard contrast.

 

[priitv8]

I don't really like HDR and I don't see the big deal. All it does is lower the contrast and push up the colors. Big deal. I always liked neutral color, low brightness and standard contrast.

There must be something wrong with your display or eyesight then.
There are 3 very big deals - bottom brightness can go below SD's minimum (0.5nits) and top brightness can exceed 100nit by as much as order of magnitude (ie 10x. Human brightness perception is logarithmic, though - 16x more light intensity gives visually 4x more brightness) and the color palette is noticeably extended.
As a bonus - the standard is now somewhat future proof, as none of today's displays can reach neither luma (10000nits) nor chroma (BT.2020) limits defined in the standard.
If you see lower contrast in HDR, then something is definitely wrong.
I have only seen this when playing back HDR content on a non-HDR display. Any display that can use the HDR gamma curve (two different currently in use - PQ and HLG), will actually expand contrast, not lower it.
Important factor - because PQ is absolute standard (meaning light output from screen is defined in fixed lumen levels - if pixel value in 10-bit file is 767, then screen shall emit that pixel at 100nit intensity, not more, not less), it requires a light-controlled viewing environment.
100nit output looks much different in darkened room from that in a daylight-lit room. That is again a "feature" of human vision. And a DoVi or HDR10 screen shall not scale it's light output based on ambient light level.

 

[Michelasso]

I don't really like HDR and I don't see the big deal. All it does is lower the contrast and push up the colors. Big deal. I always liked neutral color, low brightness and standard contrast.

Oh no. HDR when working as it must is the big deal. Try to download and play this video (LG NADA HDR UHD) in a HDR screen, and then play the converted SDR version from YouTube. Then stop when the moon is fully lighted. In HDR you'll see all craters, in SDR it's a splash of white. Or look at the Sun. There is no comparison.

@priitv8 I forgot to ask: where does Mediainfo say that a vp9 video is an HDR video? Also any idea about what's the difference between the two bold lines in my "spoiler" above?

 

[priitv8]

@priitv8 I forgot to ask: where does Mediainfo say that a vp9 video is an HDR video? Also any idea about what's the difference between the two bold lines in my "spoiler" above?

No it doesn't say for my file. And now I understand this is because 4K Video Downloader does not get the HDR version from YT.
Important for HDR presentation are
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
The Matrix coefficients are the parameters used during encoding to convert from RGB space into YCbCr space, as described here.
Also discussed here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=168424