New Apple File System Coming in macOS High Sierra Won't Work With Fusion Drives

[Daiwei]

How about Macs with the plain old spinning drive (not SSD, not Fusion)?

 

[reggierob2]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if AFS will install on third party (post-installed) SSD drives?

Thanks
Reggie

 

[guidocruz]

Some (or many) beta testers don't understand the meaning of the word "test." Nothing is "yes" until the GM release. Before that, nothing is etched in stone. No promises. If you're not mentally (and physically) prepared to do a full erase/reinstall/restore from backup during the course of an OS beta, then you're better off waiting for the GM release.

Personally, that's one of the things I like about betas - it's actual participation in the testing and development of a product. It's not supposed to be a free trial, where you either like it or you don't. You're there to help ensure that the wider user population doesn't have the problems you had.

I did help report quite a few issues. But it's the last time I'll do it. Learned my lesson.

 

[Jerry Fritschle]

I might have a dumb question, but, what should we do with iMacs that don't have the right hard drive? Are the rest of the macOS High Sierra features be working just as fine and it is simply the new file format feature that won't be applied, or should we stick to macOS Sierra because the rest won't work as well? (I own a iMac 2012, I believe)

You will still enjoy the improvements of HS over Sierra, consistent with what the hardware will support (graphics, etc.) The installer will only reformat the drive if it is a SSD. Enjoy.

 

[rGiskard]

From "Insanely Great" to "That's Good Enough" in about 7 years.

 

[Defthand]

Why is this "alarming," and why is it a limitation? They're temporarily pulling back a feature until it can be more thoroughly debugged. That's supposed to be good news, not bad.

For me personally, it's not. I understand that I can still use the existing file system and upgrade as well. However, there's no guarantee that Apple will accommodate Fusion drives when the dust settles--which means relatively young iMac models could be obsoleted prematurely if the newer file system is required for other planned changes. My point is, this particular issue wouldn't be as alarming to folks if they had the option/ability to replace the harddrive.

 

[Flow39]

If you think your Windows or Linux experience is going to have fewer kinks then I have some bad news for you...

I tried leaving once, thinking that I was going to enjoy Windows and Android more...well, I didn't, and after 6 months, I came back. Too much frustration with the other side for me to want to leave the Apple ecosystem again.

 

[Jerry Fritschle]

Is NOT ready...

People running betas should expect to wipe their device at some point. Sometimes you get lucky and may not need to. That does not change what your expectations should be.

I only even participated in the beta because I had a machine (5,1 Mac Pro) where I could test on another internal drive. Actually, I added an SSD to an open bay, and used TM to copy over my main drive. Still on Sierra and HFS+, that alone made this old girl a new machine. Then HS reformatted the SSD to APFS, and I've experienced its advantages. Since the later betas and now the GM, I've been pretty happy.

But yes, everyone, remember that you shouldn't get into the beta stuff without being prepared to get your hands dirty. I read one comment that Apple was "using its users as guinea pigs"....um, this is what you sign up for with betas

 

[rcappo]

It looks like my mid-2010 17" MacBook Pro will have to get a new OS again. I paid a lot of money for the SSD option back then, and it has worked out great.

 

[bopajuice]

Good to

Been running High Sierra beta since June on SSD Mac and had no problems moving files on external spinner drive still in old file system.. Point of note that it is still possible to convert the drives to APFS as long as there not used as boot disks

Good to hear. Thanks for the info.

Does anyone have experience using APFS with other file systems? Like those proprietary FS's on a NAS (Specifically Qnap) or Windows? Any issues?

 

[Jerry Fritschle]

So my MacMini with Fusion drive is ready for APFS?!?!?

More properly, APFS is not ready for your Fusion drive. But not to worry, HS installers will not try to reformat your drive until it is. Some beta testers have a problem here, but they should have been prepared for it.

 

[Sweetfeld28]

Completely agree! Same issue here. Somewhat oddly however I am running the GM on iMac with a 3 TB fusion with APFS. The reason is that I had to do a recovery system install and it does install the GM and doesn’t make you wipe your system. Not sure exactly how this is the case.

Maybe in your case you have iMac that came with it? My Mac Pro 2012, did not, I have created it and haven't had any issues up until now... I will have to wipe this drive then do a clean install, and then restore for a third time after 10.13 is released.

 

[rhett7660]

Question, I am assuming you can have a mixed environment. i.e. boot disk is SSD, cache disk is SSD, and the remaining three disks are regular HD. Will there be any issues with this type of environment? This is a Mac Pro.

 

[J.Gallardo]

Although this sucks for Fusion Drive owners, I do have to say I'd much rather Apple get it right when it comes to the file system even if it means waiting for support for additional drive types.

Change the way the info in the article is given:
“Fusion Drive owners will have the chance to upgrade to APFS even after High Sierra adoption.
SSD’s owners: sorry, no option for you!”

(May help to overcome your frustration...)

 

[ApfelKuchen]

A patient and well written response in a series of patient and well written responses. I noticed this one didn't link to the post you were replying to though, so that user may not be notified of your reply.

Thanks! I was quoting the same user as the initial quote (re-quoting for emphasis), so no issue with notification.

 

[hans1972]

No modern company spends 6.5 minutes during an announcement broadcast around the world, touting APFS and how it'll make the experience better for all modern Mac users, then 3 months later says oops, just kidding, no iMac bought in the store the last 5 years.

At WWDC 2017?

Here is what they said:
"Now APFS is a thoroughly modern file system 64-bit top to bottom. It’s safe and secure with built-in crash protection and native encryption and it’s ultra-responsive with modern features like instant file and directory cloning and high performance parallelized metadata operations.

Now what does that really mean in practice? Well, let’s take a look at a simple file duplication inside of Sierra. So we’re going to go up to the File menu, select duplicate on these very large video files, and it’s going to copy and just like you expect, there’s a lot of data to be copied here. So it takes a little while, just about done, there we go. Now let’s watch that in High Sierra. Well, we’re going to go to the File menu, we’re going to sub-duplicate then, we’re done."

So it must be another presentation. Which one?

 

[Glassed Silver]

They decided not to support it. Being able to discover and recover from f.ex. bit-rot requires both more RAM (several gigabytes for some features like online reduplication) for the filesystem and also two separate disks. This is not practical for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and Apple TV.

Even for Macs I would say it would be a waste of resources for most users. You can allivate to a large degree this problem with hardware checksums and a proper set of backup and restore system and procedure for those who cares.
[doublepost=1505816395][/doublepost]

Operating systems are modular. The filesystem is just a module and a small but important part of an OS. Most operating systems can be installed and work with several file systems. macOS will now work on HFS+ and APFS and in addition work with FAT32, NTFS, exFAT.

It is the same with Windows. Can be installed on FAT32 and NTFS. Works with exFAT, ReFS out of the box.

No modern operating system for personal computers are based on their file system.

Really? That is the argument?

I think if this was a Mac-only feature it'd still be rather great, but since macOS is "free" nowadays I guess expectations have to be kept at bay. (saw this coming a mile away...)

And the good old "most users don't" isn't a reasonable argument.

Have a look at what Macs cost, being able to safeguard my data should be the least they could do.

And no, more than one disk is technically desirable, but not necessary.

You're thinking about parity drives, but you can store user data checksum info in extended file attributes even if you wanted to.

Glassed Silver:ios

 

[RedRaven571]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if AFS will install on third party (post-installed) SSD drives?

Thanks
Reggie

This is also my question, what about 3rd party SSD?

 

[deanzel]

Honestly, this could be a "blessing in disguise" for some Mac owners especially those who need to maintain compatibility with Windows, Linux and possibly other operating systems (in particular in a dual/triple booting environment). The APFS file system is NOT prime time at the moment for dependability and compatibility from what I've experienced. I dabbled with the High Sierra beta for a little bit as I was looking for some needed improvements on Sierra (don't get me started), but had to switch back immediately (aka clean reinstall everything).

The biggest disadvantage of the APFS filesystem is that there are no drivers for it on any other operating systems. I mean, when Apple itself is having trouble ironing out the details and functionality of its new filesystem on its own computers, there is no chance that stable Windows or Linux drivers for APFS will become available in the near future (for even just read functionality, let alone write). I like the new introduced features with the new filesystem, but losing all my cross-compatibility drivers/usage made my dual boot High Sierra/Windows 10 MacBook Pro essentially a waste, especially since I need to use Windows software for school work/programming. That's not even including how buggy and useless the new Parallels 13 virtualization software is with High Sierra...

While I do think the new introduction of the APFS filesystem is for the best and will get sorted out and fixed in due time, it is no where near a complete, functional launch product at the moment, unless you are working only entirely in an exclusive Mac-only environment. It's obvious that all the kinks have not been worked out for the filesystem, yet Apple is still launching it like planned (and forcing users to switch when upgrading).

I'd actually prefer an option to use the old HFS+ filesystem for High Sierra on my MacBook Pro w/SSD, so I could at least get the other new OS feature updates, while maintaining some semblance of cross-platform compatibility for the time being. At the very least, I definitely recommend users to wait it out for a bit before upgrading to High Sierra (and, thus, APFS). For now though, I'll have to "ride it out" with my Sierra/Windows 10/Ubuntu triple boot.

 

[kyeblue]

Only a very small proportion of iMacs run on SSDs, and the iMac is designed not upgradable ?!
[doublepost=1505850139][/doublepost]

I'd actually prefer an option to use the old HFS+ filesystem for High Sierra on my MacBook Pro w/SSD, so I could at least get the other new OS feature updates, while maintaining some semblance of cross-platform compatibility for the time being. At the very least, I definitely recommend users to wait it out for a bit before upgrading to High Sierra (and, thus, APFS). For now though, I'll have to "ride it out" with my Sierra/Windows 10/Ubuntu triple boot.

Is there such an option to keep old HFS+ on a SSD Mac? I am also scared of upgrading my MacPro as it has an SSD as the startup drive and hard disks for storage.

To make it worse, Apple will bug me every day to upgrade and I have no way to shut it up.

 

[dianeoforegon]

I split my fusion drive into separate volumes (128gb SSD and 3TB spinning drive) The installer upgraded my SSD to APFS.

I de-fused my iMac as well and it works great with APFS on the internal SSD drive only. I moved all my data like Documents, Movies, Music, Pictures to external drive. I keep very little in Downloads and Desktop folders.

With both Mail and Outlook Identity in Library, I have 72GB free on the 120GB SSD. My Mac has never been faster. I see no slow downs with opening files on the external drive.

I just wish Apple would put in a 7200rpm drive instead of the paltry 5400rpm it continues to use.
[doublepost=1505859602][/doublepost]

That's my question and situation as well. I assume you could format the SSD portion in APFS, but what about the spinner seduction? What about external drives?

Excuse my ignorance, but if your main SSD is formatted in APFS and you use an external spinner formatted in HFS, is there any issue dragging and dropping files between drives?

I split my fusion and have no issues using SSD as APFS with files on my spinning drive HFS.

 

[bobmepp]

How about Macs with the plain old spinning drive (not SSD, not Fusion)?

From what I've read, there appear to be two possibilities: 1. The High Sierra installer automatically converts any boot drive to APFS, as long as it is not a fusion drive. 2. Only SSDs are automatically converted, but HDDs can be converted manually via Disk Utility.

 

[noraa]

Wrong on both counts. HDDs are not converted and the option to do that from Recovery is also not there. The one beta that allowed me to convert from Recovery left me with an unbootable drive. Only data HDDs can be converted, not system drives.

Not sure what issues you've run into, I've converted a system HDD to APFS without issue.

 

[deanzel]

Only a very small proportion of iMacs run on SSDs, and the iMac is designed not upgradable ?!
[doublepost=1505850139][/doublepost]

Is there such an option to keep old HFS+ on a SSD Mac? I am also scared of upgrading my MacPro as it has an SSD as the startup drive and hard disks for storage.

To make it worse, Apple will bug me every day to upgrade and I have no way to shut it up.

From what I think that I know, I'm pretty sure if you upgrade to High Sierra, you will be forced to migrate over to the new APFS file system no matter what. I don't think there is a case where you can keep HFS+ unless your Mac has a regular HDD like the article is specifically mentioning.

 

[Waughy]

I'm in the same boat but not sure about this. It keeps talking about "built in" drives, which suggests only macs that came with an SSD out of the box are getting the upgrade.

Looks like we should be good. Will know next week when it's available anyway.