Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I'm not an expert on the subject by any means so I'm only going to pose a few questions.

If it can't work on fusion drives in the final release why was it working on the beta? Was there a major issue with the Fusion drives running the new file system during testing that was causing issues?

To me it sounds like people are upset because it sounds like it was simply cut off as a feature to planes obsolescence a large number of Macs.

If there was an issue that's one thing but why is what I think the fusion drive owners would like to know.

It was working in the beta for most people with Fusion Drives, but it wasn't working for everyone. That's one of the key purposes of a beta test - to expose new software to a large enough user sample that even rare bugs can come to light. When it comes to data loss (a "broken" Fusion Drive must be erased and reformatted in order to be re-fused), even a 1% risk of failure is way too high. Like the Hippocratic Oath says, "First, do no harm."

This has nothing to do with planned obsolescence. Fusion Drives work just fine under High Sierra without converting them to APFS. First, do no harm.

Of course, conspiracies are more fun than accepting the fact that beta tests turn up bugs, or that a feature that's not ready to be shipped should not be shipped. For some people, everything done by Apple has to fit into the Evil Apple Narrative.

No, we don't know what percentage of beta testers with Fusion Drives had issues. That sort of information is never released. Apple hasn't posted a list of known Fusion-related bugs, either. When lists of that sort are posted, it's to tell testers, "No need to report this one." If the software has been withdrawn from test altogether, then we get to infer that the percentage was high enough to be significant. Since testers should no longer be testing, they don't have to be told what bugs to ignore.

We all like to be Monday morning quarterbacks. It's a fun game to play, but the management of our favorite team is under no obligation to play along.
 
Filesystems are one part of an OS where I really don't want the developers to rush, I want all the bugs thoroughly ironed out. Because that's where I keep all my stuff.
They rushed / didn't care when they decided to only checksum metadata and not the actual user data.

That's like making the addressee of a letter water-proof because the mailbox seems like it has a broken lid and could get wet, but leave the letter itself as it is, written in beautiful, fragile ink.

If you think your Windows or Linux experience is going to have fewer kinks then I have some bad news for you...
All of them can suck a LOT, but Windows and Linux have more attractive pricing.

The Apple tax used to be smaller and included much more polish and the software used to be less dumbed down... Easy BUT exceedingly functional.
The more positives Apple removes from the list of reasons to buy into their ecosystem and the more they bank on using your ecosystem investment as a tool to keep you on the inside the less I feel user needs really remain a core concern for them.

Add said pricing and we're looking at Apple as a much less obvious choice than earlier on.

Glassed Silver:win
 
And yet it wasn't ready for release and they released it anyway?



Your post contributes nothing but an implied insult. This is called flame baiting. Your post has been reported.
[doublepost=1505806586][/doublepost]

It's good to hear it will at least function on a rotating drive (not clear at all in the article), but you're telling me they didn't test this thing on their own shipping fusion drives before releasing it? Clearly, it wasn't ready for prime time. What else is missing/wrong? Apple is now using regular users as guinea pigs?



There's a reason why Microsoft is selling Surface PCs very well these days and Apple is having trouble selling ANYONE an iPad Pro. They also refuse to admit that touchscreen OPTIONS would be a good idea (if only to spite Microsoft). It was a good idea to allow Windows to be installed on Macs. This increased their audience and people who need both. But they are now limiting that audience by not including touchscreens on Macbooks.

Even if they aren't used in macOS, they should include the capability for Windows users and frankly they should allow iOS emulation inside macOS for obvious reasons (not the least of which is to be able to play iOS only games on a Mac which was gaining new games until Apple ditched OpenGL (before finishing it to the last update) for Metal that almost no one uses or supports on the Mac the last time I looked. They took the cross-platform coding advantage (OpenGL) that made some game development for the Mac fairly easy and instead of waiting for the new cross-platform STANDARD to be finished (Vulkan), they jump in with a non-standard solution of their own that does little more than DRIVE AWAY game makers who can't be bothered to make special code for 5-8% of the market.



You do realize that Windows 10 on a phone is NOT the same install as that on a home computer, right? You install what's needed for a given platform, but that doesn't mean you create a new OS either. iOS started out as a subset of OS X. But now it's macOS (formerly OS X) getting most of its new "features" from iOS because Apple doesn't give a crap about "trucks" anymore (as the utter lack of updates to most of their line has shown including STILL no new Mac Mini model superior to the 2012 server).



I didn't ignore anything. You started making assumptions based on two words. iOS and macOS should have re-converged by now on a core level and macOS should have basic touch screen options instead of a flipping stupid function key "pad" that takes all the power of an iOS device but can't do anything useful like one all just to avoid admitting they were WRONG. Small thin lightweight notebooks make excellent pads in a pinch (something Microsoft did right for once).

Instead, Apple refuses to admit their phone is actually a computer and their computers are pretty much left out for the garage sales these days. Oh, we have a replacement for R2D2 coming...some day. It's gonna be GREAT though! We can put out a new phone every 8 months, but we can't manage a new Mac Mini or Mac Pro for 3-4 years at a stretch when any two-bit PC maker worth 1/20,000 of Apple can offer 20 different NEW Windows/Linux machines every 4 months. It's ridiculous. They can afford multi-billion dollar real estate in the shape of UFOs, but can't manage to update their hardware in a reasonable time period!

I'm going to address only one of your questions/comments, because the rest is purely a matter of differing opinions about how Apple is or should be doing things. If you or I were running Apple, things would be done differently. However, I'm not convinced that either you or I are more competent than Apple's current management.

It's good to hear it will at least function on a rotating drive (not clear at all in the article), but you're telling me they didn't test this thing on their own shipping fusion drives before releasing it? Clearly, it wasn't ready for prime time. What else is missing/wrong? Apple is now using regular users as guinea pigs?
I never told you Apple doesn't test software before releasing it to the beta testers. You seem to have come to that conclusion on your own.

Of course Apple tests these things on their own shipping Fusion Drives. That's called alpha testing. The most widespread faults are likely to come to light, but they can't possibly test enough software/hardware configurations to cover all the possibilities. That's what betas are for.

For years, Apple was very selective about who participated in betas - mostly developers who need to debug their own products on the new OS (so their attention is focused in a particular direction), members of the media, IT professionals... Still, a relatively small group. Apple was criticized for not running a larger, public beta that would expose the software to an even greater sample of the end user community, and uncover even more bugs prior to release.

So now that Apple's seen the light, they're guilty of endangering "regular users?"

Apple runs two beta groups - the Developers Beta, and the Public Beta. Typically, the Developers Beta starts a couple of weeks before the Public Beta, with one or two versions of the software that the Public Betas will never see. Once the Public Beta begins, the Developers Beta will typically get a version a day or two before the Public Beta, to further protect the Public Betas.

So no, Apple is not using "regular users" as guinea pigs. They invite people to participate in a beta test, they explain the purpose of a beta test and the risks and responsibilities that go along with participating in the test. The tester decides whether to participate. All too often, testers ignore the warnings and instructions, just as people ignore most warnings and instructions.

The purpose of a beta test is to AVOID using regular users as guinea pigs. In this case, the beta uncovered bugs that had not been discovered in alpha testing. The regular users have now been protected from a potentially serious problem. This is exactly the way it's supposed to work.

Still, a fair number of people who install betas believe that it is demo software - 100% debugged code that is issued purely for evaluation. Where do they get that idea? Certainly not if they read the contents of Apple's beta web site.
 
I don't want anyone to mess with my storage. a little worried about windows 10 and bootcamp
 
This limitation wouldn't be as alarming if Apple made its iMacs upgradeable. In addition to the RAM, there should be a door to swap out hard drives.

Why is this "alarming," and why is it a limitation? They're temporarily pulling back a feature until it can be more thoroughly debugged. That's supposed to be good news, not bad.

You may want to convert your Fusion Drive to SSD, but in this case, it's just an excuse to do something you'd want to do anyway. There's no harm from operating an HFS+ Fusion Drive under High Sierra. It's just a delay in switching to APFS.
[doublepost=1505813337][/doublepost]
I don't want anyone to mess with my storage. a little worried about windows 10 and bootcamp

The Boot Camp partition is Windows-formatted, not HFS+, not APFS. Windows doesn't run on those Apple-proprietary formats.
 
They rushed / didn't care when they decided to only checksum metadata and not the actual user data.

They decided not to support it. Being able to discover and recover from f.ex. bit-rot requires both more RAM (several gigabytes for some features like online reduplication) for the filesystem and also two separate disks. This is not practical for iPhone, iPad, Apple Watch and Apple TV.

Even for Macs I would say it would be a waste of resources for most users. You can allivate to a large degree this problem with hardware checksums and a proper set of backup and restore system and procedure for those who cares.
[doublepost=1505816395][/doublepost]
You’ve lost it. It was about the OS. And the fact that the entire OS is based on APFS. But whatever.

Operating systems are modular. The filesystem is just a module and a small but important part of an OS. Most operating systems can be installed and work with several file systems. macOS will now work on HFS+ and APFS and in addition work with FAT32, NTFS, exFAT.

It is the same with Windows. Can be installed on FAT32 and NTFS. Works with exFAT, ReFS out of the box.

No modern operating system for personal computers are based on their file system.
 
Last edited:
Typical Apple. In iOS 9 they flaunted single sign on for Cable TV providers. It's iOS 11 now and it still doesn't exist for 95% of cable providers in the country (I get it, this is partially the cable companies issue). Another iOS feature they flaunted is peer to peer payment capabilities, and low and behold, not possible in iOS 11... they say "future update" but yet another example of them announcing a feature that never comes to fruition.

Apple really has seemingly lost their direction. Not sure if it's just that they've gotten too big and too disorganized (I have friends that work there and they say there's no cross-department communication, and people are miserable)... maybe it's just bad leadership at the top. Tim does a lot of good, but he also lacks a lot of the leadership many successful CEOs possess.

One thing that's for certain, supply chain has been abysmal the last couple years (Best Buy had both Macbook and MacBook Pro in stock before Apple stores 2 years ago when they came out). Airpods announced then delayed months. Beats X delayed months.

The software was always the thing we could count on, and now even it seems to be suffering the same issues as the hardware... undelivered promised features...

And why didn't we get more animated wallpapers on iOS?
 
This has nothing to do with SSD vs. HDD - APFS works fine on either, though the most benefits are found on SSDs. The issue is specifically with Fusion drives, and fusion drives work very differently than a regular SSD or HDD. Specifically, a fusion drive uses Apple's Core Storage API to marry two physical drives (an SSD and an HDD) into one - and then Core Storage automatically manages which files live on the SSD and which on the HDD with no use intervention. The stumbling block is that APFS doesn't use, nor does it need to use, core storage.

Whereas core storage is an API Apple created independent of HFS+ that they essentially tacked onto the file system (honestly, the fact that Apple has been able to do some of the things they have done on a file system level with a file system as antiquated as HFS+ is nothing short of miraculous), APFS has a built-in system called volume pools - a similar concept to core storage, but a drastically different implementation.

So what we are running into is a difficulty in converting a core storage volume into an APFS volume pool. From the testing I've done during the beta, I didn't run into any obvious issues with an APFS formatted fusion drive. With that being said, Apple was/is obviously concerned enough about data integrity (which they absolutely should be) that they wanted to hold off on upgrading fusion drives to APFS. If there is even a small bug in the file system, catastrophic problem (i.e. data loss) can occur. My guess is Apple wants to get High Sierra on as many computers as possible, and have as many as possible upgrade to APFS and collect telemetry data on these various systems before moving forward with fusion and APFS. Even with as much in-house testing that is done at Apple, as well as the 10's of thousands of beta testers out there, there are so many different possible system configurations it is impossible to test them all. So Apple is playing it as better safe than sorry - which is absolutely the right thing to do.

Now, if months down the line after a .1 and .2 update, we still can't upgrade our Fusion drives to APFS, then there is cause for concern.

That makes sense. My guess was also that we might see that in a future major OS upgrade.
 
Gonna be a bunch of upset people because Apple says they can upgrade, then destroy their disk, and make them recover it.

Only those that installed the beta. They knew the risk and were more than properly warned. That's on them, not Apple. Apple told them to NOT install on their personal machine or production machine.
 
I don't want anyone to mess with my storage. a little worried about windows 10 and bootcamp
At the moment Running 21" iMac 2013 SSD converted to APFS with bootcamp. It works you can select start up disk rom mac to go to windows but going the other way you have to restart wait for the chime then press option key to select mac os. if you use select disk from within windows you get can't locate boot OS
 
  • Like
Reactions: ahmedouvix
In the release it might not have to option to not change the file system, so I would probably just wait until Apple says fusion drives are supported, anything with flash based storage is fine

Fusion Drive- do not install High Sierra- until the bugs get worked out
Flash Base- install High Sierra
 
Probably for the best if the other option was to release something buggy for people who have fusion drive setups.

Seriously thou, HFS+ really needed to go the way of the dodo a long time ago. We're talking about a more advanced version of the file system originally introduced in the Apple III here. Hell, even NeXtStep (which is what OSX was built on) had a superior file system (which they chose not to adopt to have compatibility with classic Mac OS).
 
That's really sad because I truly believe the operating system formerly known as OS X got ONE HELL of a lot SLOWER just between Mavericks and El Capitan for rotating hard drives. I got my mother a 13" Macbook Pro back in 2012 that I thought she'd understand better than the Windows machine my brother got her (she did in that sense) and as soon as I updated it to El Capitan, the machine started slowing down big time. If I look at Activity Monitor, it shows very little CPU time being used when it slows down (the thing you'd normally expect as a computer ages), but rather it's going slow as molasses because of the hard drive activity, like it's trying to load everything concurrently (something SSDs do very well since they handle random access data with total aplomb) whereas it seemed to "time share" activity MUCH BETTER in older versions of the OS.

Her computer becomes damn near unusable at times and reboots and even just switching users take FOREVER. My own Mac Mini server from the same years is nowhere near as bad, but then it has RAID 0 drives and twice the memory (and CPUS for that matter at faster speed). I don't expect her machine to act like it did in 2012, but the amount of slowdown she gets is absolutely unacceptable and appears to be due to the OS and I mean when the machine was only three years old. I find it almost absurd she needs a new computer just to read email, Facebook and look some things up on the web once in awhile, but the slowdown is driving her crazy and she doesn't even expect much from it.
If you can run a screwdriver and learn how to clone a drive, you can upgrade her computer to an SSD and even add more RAM. I did it for my parents.
 
In the release it might not have to option to not change the file system, so I would probably just wait until Apple says fusion drives are supported, anything with flash based storage is fine

Fusion Drive- do not install High Sierra- until the bugs get worked out
Flash Base- install High Sierra
Personally Speaking due to the change in File system this should really be in beta for at least a few months yet, Apple seem to eager to get it out ASAP Bugs and all. I agree with what I read some elsewhere "They should not release to a schedule but only release when ready"
 
I'm going to address only one of your questions/comments, because the rest is purely a matter of differing opinions about how Apple is or should be doing things. If you or I were running Apple, things would be done differently. However, I'm not convinced that either you or I are more competent than Apple's current management.
A patient and well written response in a series of patient and well written responses. I noticed this one didn't link to the post you were replying to though, so that user may not be notified of your reply.
 
I might have a dumb question, but, what should we do with iMacs that don't have the right hard drive? Are the rest of the macOS High Sierra features be working just as fine and it is simply the new file format feature that won't be applied, or should we stick to macOS Sierra because the rest won't work as well? (I own a iMac 2012, I believe)
 
I wonder how my split fusion drive will be treated.

That's my question and situation as well. I assume you could format the SSD portion in APFS, but what about the spinner seduction? What about external drives?

Excuse my ignorance, but if your main SSD is formatted in APFS and you use an external spinner formatted in HFS, is there any issue dragging and dropping files between drives?
 
That's my question and situation as well. I assume you could format the SSD portion in APFS, but what about the spinner seduction? What about external drives?

Excuse my ignorance, but if your main SSD is formatted in APFS and you use an external spinner formatted in HFS, is there any issue dragging and dropping files between drives?
Been running High Sierra beta since June on SSD Mac and had no problems moving files on external spinner drive still in old file system.. Point of note that it is still possible to convert the drives to APFS as long as there not used as boot disks
 
And why didn't we get more animated wallpapers on iOS?

I forgot those even existed. Day 1 when I installed iOS 9 (was iOS 9 right?) i saw the animated wallpapers and said "where's the off button?" LOL
[doublepost=1505830859][/doublepost]
No modern operating system for personal computers are based on their file system.

No modern company spends 6.5 minutes during an announcement broadcast around the world, touting APFS and how it'll make the experience better for all modern Mac users, then 3 months later says oops, just kidding, no iMac bought in the store the last 5 years.
 
Not sure why you're so defensive of apple. Beginning to wonder if we have some employees on here defending the mediocrity. Apple has gotten a LOT of passes the last couple years. When you pay for a product or service, you have a right to rely on features promised.

I'm quoting part of your post, because if you read a lot of my posts here and elsewhere, you might also accuse me of being defensive of Apple. You wonder if there are Apple employees on Macrumors "defending the mediocrity". (If there are, so what? They have a right of free speech just as you do.) (You also could wonder if Microsoft or Google or Samsung employees are behind trolling of Macrumors given the unreasonable criticism you see around here lately -- but they also have a right of free speech)

I think some long term Apple users are comparing the current Apple with the Apple they cut their teeth on, and have somewhat selective memory about good versus bad 10 or more years ago. Others, like me, have switched over to Apple after many long suffering years with Windows, and therefore, have a fresh memory of what true mediocrity feels like. Even 4 years after switching, I still find the relatively painless upgrades on both iOS and MacOS, the high resale value of the hardware, the stability of both MacOS and iOS, and the great customer service at Apple stores to be mostly a joy.

I have specific issues with Apple, but they are relatively minor. I retain a good deal of confidence in Apple. The High Sierra upgrade is major, given the new file system, and some withholding of features on some systems in the name of caution is justified. (The fusion drive issue being the most obvious case in point). I usually upgrade near day one on both iOS and MacOS, but I am going to wait a few days to see how the APFS upgrade goes.
 
What kind of filesystem has requirements for the type of disk it runs on? Must just be an optimization thing.


Just about all of them, even if they are inherent assumptions about the media. The smart ones make optimizations for media, which AFS does for SSD and I expect it to do when Fusion and spinning drives are supported.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.