Apps New applications

[Rigby]

The Amazon Fire TV is not a big seller, probably because the UI is terrible and people just don't want hardware from Amazon. Once the Fire TV is in the dustbin of history they will have no choice but to put an App on Apple tv.

The Fire TV was actually the #2 selling streaming box (behind Roku) in the first half of 2015. I have not seen numbers for the second half yet. The Apple TV has certainly seen a spike due to the introduction of the new model, but it remains to be seen whether it will change the market share on a sustained basis.

Of course, there is another elephant in the room: Smart TVs. They were on track to overtake dedicated streaming devices already in 2014, and I suspect this trend will continue. So far, their UIs typically lagged behind streaming boxes, but this is changing as Android- and Roku-based TVs are becoming more common. Most consumers will see less and less reasons to buy streaming boxes. This also means that iTunes, being the only major content store that isn't on any Smart TVs, risks being left behind.

 

[tanfan]

The billing requirement was added with an update of Roku's developer agreement in September 2015.

You can be certain that Amazon and other large providers will negotiate individual agreements with Roku and will not pay anywhere near Apple's 30%. You can also be certain that there have been negotiations between Amazon and Apple, but obviously they didn't lead to a mutually acceptable outcome so far.

I'm guessing Roku really wants all those apps on their box so they negotiate to get them. In my opinion...Apple doesn't want certain apps on their box that would compete with itunes so, their negotiations are quite different.

 

[shandyman]

The billing requirement was added with an update of Roku's developer agreement in September 2015.

You can be certain that Amazon and other large providers will negotiate individual agreements with Roku and will not pay anywhere near Apple's 30%. You can also be certain that there have been negotiations between Amazon and Apple, but obviously they didn't lead to a mutually acceptable outcome so far.

Point is, Roku is still getting some of the revenue. So now that point is accepted. Let's move on.

Also, Amazon are making an app for Apple TV, which I reckon will be out in time for Clarkson, Hammond & May's new show that can't be called Top Gear

 

[shandyman]

I'm guessing Roku really wants all those apps on their box so they negotiate to get them. In my opinion...Apple doesn't want certain apps on their box that would compete with itunes so, their negotiations are quite different.

Apple clearly have no issue with Amazon and it will be subject to their usual rules. Since Amazon already has an app on iOS, the issue is clearly Amazon only. All they have to do is add the tvOS related bits to the iOS app, submit it and it'll be done.

Amazon tried to blame Google and Apple for there being no Amazon Prime support on their TV related devices and have major egg on their face when they realised everyone knew it was Amazon's own fault there wasn't support.

Bottom line. Roku seems to get whatever app they want and, for whatever reason "you", want to believe, Apple TV, does not.

Anybody have links to some of this Roku, terms of service stuff and what changed in September?

It was quoted in this thread. Links cannot be given, I believe due to NDA reasons

The reason Apple TV does not have Amazon Prime is solely Amazoj being spiteful.

 

[shandyman]

The Fire TV was actually the #2 selling streaming box (behind Roku) in the first half of 2015. I have not seen numbers for the second half yet. The Apple TV has certainly seen a spike due to the introduction of the new model, but it remains to be seen whether it will change the market share on a sustained basis.

Of course, there is another elephant in the room: Smart TVs. They were on track to overtake dedicated streaming devices already in 2014, and I suspect this trend will continue. So far, their UIs typically lagged behind streaming boxes, but this is changing as Android- and Roku-based TVs are becoming more common. Most consumers will see less and less reasons to buy streaming boxes. This also means that iTunes, being the only major content store that isn't on any Smart TVs, risks being left behind.

There are stats floating around for the year 2015 showing Apple TV sold the most, then Amazon Fire TV, then Roku, then Google Chromecast. But I'm sure the Roku fanboi's will make excuses.

http://intelligence.slice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Market-Share-Pre_Post.png

 

[tanfan]

Apple clearly have no issue with Amazon and it will be subject to their usual rules. Since Amazon already has an app on iOS, the issue is clearly Amazon only. All they have to do is add the tvOS related bits to the iOS app, submit it and it'll be done.

Amazon tried to blame Google and Apple for there being no Amazon Prime support on their TV related devices and have major egg on their face when they realised everyone knew it was Amazon's own fault there wasn't support.



It was quoted in this thread. Links cannot be given, I believe due to NDA reasons

The reason Apple TV does not have Amazon Prime is solely Amazoj being spiteful.

You really need to take off the Apple goggles, they are blinding you. It's thinking like this this allows Apple to do whatever they want.......

 

[shandyman]

You really need to take off the Apple goggles, they are blinding you. It's thinking like this this allows Apple to do whatever they want.......

So, you're ignoring that Amazon stated they removed the Apple TV and Google Chromecast because they don't support Amazon Prime, but when asked if they submitted apps for said devices, they hadn't and are now making an app for the Apple TV? These are cold hard facts, maybe you need to take off your anti-Apple goggles as you're blinded to facts.

https://www.macrumors.com/2015/11/28/apple-tv-amazon-prime-video-tvos-app/

 

[tanfan]

So, you're ignoring that Amazon stated they removed the Apple TV and Google Chromecast because they don't support Amazon Prime, but when asked if they submitted apps for said devices, they hadn't and are now making an app for the Apple TV? These are cold hard facts, maybe you need to take off your anti-Apple goggles as you're blinded to facts.

https://www.macrumors.com/2015/11/28/apple-tv-amazon-prime-video-tvos-app/

I have no anti Apple goggles I'm just not a fanboy....

http://www.aftvnews.com/understandi...-of-the-apple-tv-chromecast-and-nexus-player/

 

[JoeShades]

The Fire TV was actually the #2 selling streaming box (behind Roku) in the first half of 2015. I have not seen numbers for the second half yet. The Apple TV has certainly seen a spike due to the introduction of the new model, but it remains to be seen whether it will change the market share on a sustained basis.

Of course, there is another elephant in the room: Smart TVs. They were on track to overtake dedicated streaming devices already in 2014, and I suspect this trend will continue. So far, their UIs typically lagged behind streaming boxes, but this is changing as Android- and Roku-based TVs are becoming more common. Most consumers will see less and less reasons to buy streaming boxes. This also means that iTunes, being the only major content store that isn't on any Smart TVs, risks being left behind.

Most people that buy Tvs are going to get smart ones because that is what comes with most Tvs now, that does not mean people are using those functions, actually most people with smart Tvs buy a box instead. Sort of like how people claiming 3D was popular just because alot of 3D TVs were sold, well of course they were sold alot because it came with the TV people bought not because people were looking for 3D TVs, same with Smart TVs , Most people don't buy a tv because of that

 

[d21mike]

Most people that buy Tvs are going to get smart ones because that is what comes with most Tvs now, that does not mean people are using those functions, actually most people with smart Tvs buy a box instead. Sort of like how people claiming 3D was popular just because alot of 3D TVs were sold, well of course they were sold alot because it came with the TV people bought not because people were looking for 3D TVs, same with Smart TVs , Most people don't buy a tv because of that

So true.

 

[shandyman]

I have no anti Apple goggles I'm just not a fanboy....

http://www.aftvnews.com/understandi...-of-the-apple-tv-chromecast-and-nexus-player/

I'm no fanboy either. The fact you started using fanboy and 'Apple goggles' to try and make anyone who disagrees with you, just devalues what you say.

Blaming Apple and it's rules for no Amazon Prime Video app is inherently flawed when there's an app on iOS and tvOS functionality is added thru that same app...

 

[Rigby]

Most people that buy Tvs are going to get smart ones because that is what comes with most Tvs now, that does not mean people are using those functions, actually most people with smart Tvs buy a box instead.

I'm sure you have some numbers to back up that claim?

Sort of like how people claiming 3D was popular just because alot of 3D TVs were sold, well of course they were sold alot because it came with the TV people bought not because people were looking for 3D TVs, same with Smart TVs , Most people don't buy a tv because of that

No, they don't buy TVs because of the "smart" functions. But they are less likely to buy a streaming box once they discover that Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc. run perfectly fine on their TV already. What do you think why Roku and Google are moving into the Smart TV business?

 

[EdwardSmith36]

I don't think Amzone "A leading e commerce platform" will do this. Let's see what happens next!

 

[Rigby]

There are stats floating around for the year 2015 showing Apple TV sold the most, then Amazon Fire TV, then Roku, then Google Chromecast.

As I said, there was certainly a sales spike when the new model came out. We'll see if it lasts. You will also note that Apple TV only leads if you count the ATV3 as well. But ATV3 sales are likely to plummet now that the new model is out.

But I'm sure the Roku fanboi's will make excuses.

"Fanboi"? Oh my.
[doublepost=1453736224][/doublepost]

Point is, Roku is still getting some of the revenue. So now that point is accepted. Let's move on.

Actually no, we don't know that in the case of Amazon and other large providers.

There is one major aspect where Roku is different from Apple, Amazon and Google: They are neutral in the sense that they don't run their own content store, which means they have no incentive to keep competing services from being on their device. On the contrary, the more services they get, the more attractive their product becomes. This makes them more likely to accommodate the wishes of popular content providers.

 

[derekshank]

No, they don't buy TVs because of the "smart" functions. But they are less likely to buy a streaming box once they discover that Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc. run perfectly fine on their TV already. What do you think why Roku and Google are moving into the Smart TV business?

I agree with this. My parents bought a smart TV, not realizing that it was a smart tv... but they were very happy to not have to try to watch Netflix through a Nintendo Wii anymore... and certainly won't be shelling out any money on a set top box now.

On the other side, I bought a TV in December, and intentionally bought a less expensive non-smart TV, because I knew I would be using it with the Apple TV. And that, for the most part, is how Apple finds success.

Sure, Apple wants as many people as possible to buy an Apple TV... but they are far more concerned with what the people who do buy it do with it.

As an example... look at the Android/iOS numbers. Android has an 82.8% global marketshare compared to Apple's 13.9%. Those look like bleak numbers, except that those numbers include developing countries, where cheap phones rule the day. When it comes to profit... Apple has 94% of the global smartphone profits. What number do you think Apple cares about more?

It won't matter to Apple if their set top box only gets into a smaller percentage of households... as long as the folks who have it subscribe to Apple Music, subscribe to some Apple TV streaming service, rent/buy movies on iTunes, and choose Apple phones and computers to make it all work together seamlessly.

Apple customers spend money... and that matters far more to Apple than selling more set top boxes than Google or Amazon or Roku. And once Apple has their own streaming service, Apple will own the living room of anyone who has that Apple TV... and that's the fear that Amazon has. Amazon Prime will be a huge afterthought at that point. Then Amazon and Roku, and Chomecast will cannibalize one another trying to eek out their razor thin profit margins, while Tim Cook will be diving headfirst into Scrooge McDuck's ocean of gold.

So, it is Amazon's fault that there is no AppleTV app... but can you blame them? They are direct competitor with iTunes... and the vast majority of people who buy an AppleTV are already loyal Apple customers - so how much does Amazon really have to gain here? The AppleTV will always be designed to make life easier on iTunes customers than Amazon customers.

 

[shandyman]

"Fanboi"? Oh my.

Well someone else started throwing it about, so was sharing the love in that sense.

Actually no, we don't know that in the case of Amazon and other large providers.

There is one major aspect where Roku is different from Apple, Amazon and Google: They are neutral in the sense that they don't run their own content store, which means they have no incentive to keep competing services from being on their device. On the contrary, the more services they get, the more attractive their product becomes. This makes them more likely to accommodate the wishes of popular content providers.

Actually, we do know that. There's many reports that Roku have drawn up new agreements to take a share. Roku now have bargaining chips, since they're popular now. They didn't have that bargaining chip when they started.

If you think Roku are getting nothing now, you're really naive. They can't afford to not be. Simple business. It's like letting someone trade from your shop and not getting any rent.

 

[JoeShades]

I'm sure you have some numbers to back up that claim?
No, they don't buy TVs because of the "smart" functions. But they are less likely to buy a streaming box once they discover that Netflix, Hulu, Amazon etc. run perfectly fine on their TV already. What do you think why Roku and Google are moving into the Smart TV business?

The smart TV functions don't run perfectly fine after awhile because there is no incentive to update the software because they want you to buy a new TV not be happy with your 3 year old Smart Tv. Oh and now they are putting ads in the UI to junk up the screens, have fun with your average intelligence TV

 

[derekshank]

The smart TV functions don't run perfectly fine after awhile because there is no incentive to update the software because they want you to buy a new TV not be happy with your 3 year old Smart Tv. Oh and now they are putting ads in the UI to junk up the screens, have fun with your average intelligence TV

Absolutely. But then again, we are talking about your average consumer (like my parents). Most of these kinds of people are cable subscribers, have a a PC that is 5+ years old running Windows XP, and use their smartphones primarily for phone calls and photos.

Tech savvy people wouldn't put up with any of this - but there is still a significant portion of the population that is content enough with the "free" option that comes on the TV they purchase.

But that leads to my earlier argument. These aren't really the folks that Apple is selling to anyway - so I don't think Apple is/should be worried about it.

 

[tanfan]

Well someone else started throwing it about, so was sharing the love in that sense.




Actually, we do know that. There's many reports that Roku have drawn up new agreements to take a share. Roku now have bargaining chips, since they're popular now. They didn't have that bargaining chip when they started.

If you think Roku are getting nothing now, you're really naive. They can't afford to not be. Simple business. It's like letting someone trade from your shop and not getting any rent.

We keep disagreeing but it's ok, that's what forums are for lol. Roku is making money in different areas like promo ads, dedicated logo keys and stuff like that. More and more TVS are now Roku TVs and I'm sure they get something for that also. We may never know but I'm guessing if Roku gets something from Amazon, it's not much compared to what Apple wants.

I also don't get (in general) why people (not pointing fingers) tout how Apple makes all the profit as a good thing? Ok, we like them so we want them to be successful but to the point of bragging how everybody else has very thin profit margins and Apple makes a fortune on their devices? I know if I'm shopping for a car- TV whatever, looking at 2 devices from major manufacturers, and I'm told one item costs about as much to make as it costs, and the other one I'm told the manufacturer makes lots of profit from....I'll take the one that costs the most to make..... It may make more sense if I was reading this on stocks.com...

My guess is Apple doesn't make much more on lets say a phone.....but all of the over priced proprietary accessories and services....?

 

[DesertDog]

I also don't get (in general) why people (not pointing fingers) tout how Apple makes all the profit as a good thing? Ok, we like them so we want them to be successful but to the point of bragging how everybody else has very thin profit margins and Apple makes a fortune on their devices? I know if I'm shopping for a car- TV whatever, looking at 2 devices from major manufacturers, and I'm told one item costs about as much to make as it costs, and the other one I'm told the manufacturer makes lots of profit from....I'll take the one that costs the most to make..... It may make more sense if I was reading this on stocks.com...

That would be the case if both devices were in the same range. Apple only sells high end whereas the Android makers are selling a lot of volume at low end in developing countries. 20% on an $800 gives you a lot more profit then 20% on a $40 phone. You mention shopping for cars, just think what the profits would look like in that industry if Roll Royce has 14% market share with Ford and Chevy having 84% market share. The latter mainly sell at the lower end of the price spectrum with a few higher end offerings while the former only sells high end. That's what we have with phones.

 

[tanfan]

That would be the case if both devices were in the same range. Apple only sells high end whereas the Android makers are selling a lot of volume at low end in developing countries. 20% on an $800 gives you a lot more profit then 20% on a $40 phone. You mention shopping for cars, just think what the profits would look like in that industry if Roll Royce has 14% market share with Ford and Chevy having 84% market share. The latter mainly sell at the lower end of the price spectrum with a few higher end offerings while the former only sells high end. That's what we have with phones.

It's true there is a low end, and a very low end with android. However there is also high end, and arguably as high or higher end than their iphone competition depending on who you are talking too, and what criteria you are going by. It's these phones I am comparing too. Both android and Apple have their Rolls Royce.

 

[derekshank]

I also don't get (in general) why people (not pointing fingers) tout how Apple makes all the profit as a good thing? Ok, we like them so we want them to be successful but to the point of bragging how everybody else has very thin profit margins and Apple makes a fortune on their devices?

Speaking only for myself, I wasn't bragging or saying it was a good thing. I was merely explaining the situation. There is, after all, a reason that Amazon Instant Video isn't on the Apple TV.

It is, of course, a decidedly bad thing that Amazon Instant Video isn't available on the Apple TV... and the reason is in my earlier post explaining how Apple has such an unfair advantage over a company like Amazon in this realm.

Having said that, Apple makes very good products. The way they work, and work together, makes them very attractive to me. I wish Amazon was on the Apple TV, but it isn't - and when I understand the reasons I'm forced to shrug. I'd rather miss out on Amazon streaming (especially considering that it offers very little that you can't get with a combination of Netflix, Hulu, and iTunes), then have some other brand smart TV or set top box that doesn't work as seamlessly with my other Apple products.

But that just me. Other folks are able to draw their own conclusions that suit their own needs.

 

[phillytim]

I won't ever buy Amazon Prime until they have a video app on the Apple TV. If I can't use what I'm paying for, then screw Amazon, I have the patience to wait for normal shipping times.

 

[tanfan]

I'm just not going to upgrade to the Apple TV 4 until they can get channels I use like Amazon and Vudu and Slingtv..... Blame whomever you want but those channels are found on LOTS of other devices, so they are not restricting their apps to only their own device like Apple does with itunes. I'm not going to let anybody tell me what channels I can and can't use. My Apple TV 3 collects dust because the channels I use are mostly on my Roku.

 

[derekshank]

I won't ever buy Amazon Prime until they have a video app on the Apple TV. If I can't use what I'm paying for, then screw Amazon, I have the patience to wait for normal shipping times.

I think Amazon is probably ok with that. They currently have a pretty good base of customers, and they are trying to build more loyal customers (like Apple has), rather than build something that works alongside Apple products. They don't want to cooperate with iTunes in your home... they want to replace it.

There will still be some folks (like myself) who will fork over the $99 for shipping, and get the added benefit of being able to stream some media (even if I only use it a few times a year). But those aren't really the customers Amazon is after... which is why they aren't on the Apple TV.

They want the kinds of customers Apple has. The kind that use their services, but also pay for their hardware, and purchase lots of movies, music, and apps. That's what Amazon is trying to build... so discouraging folks from buying an Apple TV and avoiding competing with iTunes in those homes kind of makes sense.

I'm just not going to upgrade to the Apple TV 4 until they can get channels I use like Amazon and Vudu and Slingtv..... Blame whomever you want but those channels are found on LOTS of other devices, so they are not restricting their apps to only their own device like Apple does with itunes. I'm not going to let anybody tell me what channels I can and can't use. My Apple TV 3 collects dust because the channels I use are mostly on my Roku.

Like my above post... I think Apple is probably fine with this. Amazon (as well as Vudu) are in direct competition with iTunes... which is not something that is true between Amazon and Roku. Amazon doesn't want to be in the Apple TV for all the reasons I've already stated. If that service is important to you... enjoy your Roku. It's a fine option.

As for Sling, they've stated that they are working on an app... but I'm wondering if they've seen the writing on the wall with Apple's attempt at streaming service.

Sling is owned by Dish, so they are probably waiting to see if Apple is going to be purchasing any/all of TWC - which would be another direct competitor. You would never see Dish cooperate with any TWC services... so this is probably no different. Just like Amazon, they want to discourage folks from sending money to a direct competitor.

In my opinion, Apple's streaming service is not an if, but a when... and at that point, they will also be in direct competition with Sling, regardless of this TWC business.

All of that to say, Apple customers are kind of experiencing the pros and the cons of owning products of a company that is in direct competition with such a far reaching group of companies. We are currently in the growing pains of some of these services (think Apple Maps)... but it should be working nicely soon enough.

For my part, I have Hulu, Netflix, a decent size personal iTunes library, and an antenna with the Channels app (not to mention a sideloaded Kodi app), so I have more than enough content to keep me happy until some of these other services reach completion.