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macrumors 603
Original poster
Sep 23, 2014
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With the very disappointing A12 ATV4K, and the fact that the A10X ATV4K is actually more powerful for gaming than the A12, I had some concerns about the future of gaming on tvOS. If you have the ATV4k with the A10X, there is little reason to downgrade to the A12 version, especially if you have Apple Arcade.

There is a lot of things not so great for gaming on the A12 ATV4K:
30% slower GPU vs the A10X
Barely a CPU performance increase
Same 64GB Max storage option
No accelerometer like the old Siri Remote
No gyroscope like the old Siri Remote
Same pricing

Basically making the new A12 ATV4K a pretty sad update to the ATV, and a downgrade in many ways, especially gaming.

But... Some good news. According to Max Tech and recent rumors, it is looking like a new ATV might be out by the end of the year with maybe an M1:

Hopefully the gaming focus ATV that a lot of us were looking forward to might be coming soon.
 
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Pakaku

macrumors 68020
Aug 29, 2009
2,405
2,729
It's not really going to matter if they have a super powerful ATV for games if it doesn't come with a real game controller. A controller that is bundled with it would be a sign for devs to take ATV gaming more seriously.

Unfortunately it's a lose-lose scenario in my mind: either Apple will continue not to, or they'll come up with some terrible "magic" controller akin to the old Siri Remote or the Magic Mouse. Of course, I'd like to be proven wrong on both accounts
 
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vertical smile

macrumors 603
Original poster
Sep 23, 2014
5,753
6,534
It's not really going to matter if they have a super powerful ATV for games if it doesn't come with a real game controller.
I agree with your post, but the rumors have Apple developing a new bluetooth, gaming-centric controller to bundle with the Apple TV, and not another silly Siri Remote for gaming.

In addition to a controller, Apple really needs to have the developers on board, and way before a gaming ATV gets announced to have some titles and ports ready for launch.

The good news is that the rumors have Apple talking to developers about bringing some more console quality games to Apple Arcade and the Apple TV, so if the rumors are remotely true, then that is a pretty good sign.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
I think it's happening. I'd even say they want to compete with Sony and Microsoft for a few reasons. Gaming is booming and will continue to grow, if they adopted an Xbox pass model it could really boost their home based Services. If they want to keep their ecosystem intact and continue to develop for the home market, they need to offer a AAA-game experience. Why buy an Apple TV if you have a PS5 or XBX to run your third party subscriptions? Why buy a Nintendo Switch if you can play next gen games on your Apple gaming console, iPad, or iPhone. An Apple gaming console would dovetail nicely with AR/VR ambitions and technology, in fact, games will probably be the engine of adoption. It'd be a great opportunity to showcase the power of M-series chips and any GPUs they might be developing.

They main reasons that this won't happen is that they haven't done it before, the lack of developer/studio support, and lack of game controller. Rumors from multiple reliable sources indicated that Apple's attitude has changed. They have reportedly dropped "BIG" money on studios. Don't be surprised if they buy one or two. Supposedly they even shipped out development boxes out to studios last fall. Multiple reports also claim they're developing their own controllers. They even dropped gaming features from the new Apple TV remote which suggests they have something else coming down the road. The guys at Max Tech have a great breakdown on Apple's gaming ambitions that align almost perfectly with my thinking.

I know there is a lot of healthy skepticism out there but I kind of think they have to do this.
 
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Donar

macrumors 6502
Jul 12, 2008
372
62
Germany
I will probably skip the 2021 Apple TV 4K (A12 edition). Would be nice if an A12X/Z or M1 based Apple TV materialises. I‘m not sure Apple could* bring an M1 based Apple TV at an „attractive“ pricepoint in Q4 2021. Maybe if they would use M1 Chips where e.g. a GPU Core (like with the A12X or the M1 in the lower end MacBook Air) is deactivated or with less GHz.

M1 MacMini with 8GB RAM and 256GB SSD sells for 699$, what would be the price point of a M1 „Apple TV -=ARCADE=-“ with 8GB RAM and 128 GB Storage - 499$?

*They probably could, but with low profit margin, creating problems within their pricing structure.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
I will probably skip the 2021 Apple TV 4K (A12 edition). Would be nice if an A12X/Z or M1 based Apple TV materialises. I‘m not sure Apple could bring an M1 based Apple TV at an „attractive“ pricepoint in Q4 2021. Maybe if they would use M1 Chips where e.g. a GPU Core (like with the A12X) is deactivated or with less GHz.
I bet an M1 Apple TV/Console would be around $700. $200 more than a PS5/XBX. Keep in mind Sony, at least, is selling at a loss. Also the same price as the base model Mac mini. I'm skipping the 2021 Apple TV as well.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
I don't know why it would be that much. I think you are way off with pricing.

The M1 Mac Mini cost that much, and an ATV wouldn't need everything that the Mac Mini needs, TB, USB, audio jack, etc.
Maybe. Just factoring in the Apple tax. I'm also assuming they don't want to sell for a loss like Sony. Maybe they'd include an in-house discrete gpu which one add to the cost. Not sure if that's feasible. Of course they wouldn't have to buy from Intel or AMD, so that's a cost savings. I would hope that they have some I/O. They'd probably add a U-series chip and spatial audio. I wonder more about SSD pricing. Would they even offer higher capacities? I guess that depends if they adopt a streaming model and how tethered it is to a MR headset. Maybe they bank on selling subscription services and keep the price lower. Apple does like their margins, though.
 
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vertical smile

macrumors 603
Original poster
Sep 23, 2014
5,753
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Just factoring in the Apple tax. I'm also assuming they don't want to sell for a loss like Sony.
According to rumors from a while ago, the ATV4 and ATV4K were sold without the typical Apple profit margins of 30-40%.

There was even a rumor (I think from Jon Prosser) that Apple was selling the ATVs at a loss when factoring the R&D.

While I can believe that Apple might be selling with a small profit margin, I think that Apple selling ATVs at a loss is much harder to believe... Then again, look at ATV+... So, only Apple knows for sure.

All that said, I don't see a M1 Apple TV prices at $700 due to a much more capable and complex Mac Mini already costing that much, unless Apple is close to selling that to a loss (again, doubtful).

A pricing example, the ATV Pro or ATV Arcade, with the M1, 8GB RAM, only HDMI and Ethernet port, bundled with a gaming controller could cost $349 for 64GB, $399 for 128GB, and $499 for 256GB versions.

This would be a similar drop in price from the M1 iPad Pro that we see from the current A12 iPad and A12 ATV.
 
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Mighuel

macrumors regular
Aug 27, 2008
108
120
Finland
These rumors are indeed very interesting and everything seems to be lining up pretty well. Streaming-focused device released in the spring with A12 chip and more powerful gaming-focused device in the fall with M1 or even a more powerful chip.

One thing about the new Apple TV that’s been puzzling me. They’re saying it support high frame rate HDR like it’s a new thing for ATV but their specs still list only 4K dolby vision @ 60hz. The 2017 model also support 4K dolby vision @ 60 hz. Am I missing something? Obviously the new Apple TV has HDMI 2.1 which supports 120hz but that doesn’t seem to be enabled on the new box. WWDC this year might change that of course but it feels weird that they would advertise it beforehand. Not something Apple usually does.
 
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kendo88

macrumors regular
Jun 22, 2010
214
49
Coventry
These rumors are indeed very interesting and everything seems to be lining up pretty well. Streaming-focused device released in the spring with A12 chip and more powerful gaming-focused device in the fall with M1 or even a more powerful chip.

One thing about the new Apple TV that’s been puzzling me. They’re saying it support high frame rate HDR like it’s a new thing for ATV but their specs still list only 4K dolby vision @ 60hz. The 2017 model also support 4K dolby vision @ 60 hz. Am I missing something? Obviously the new Apple TV has HDMI 2.1 which supports 120hz but that doesn’t seem to be enabled on the new box. WWDC this year might change that of course but it feels weird that they would advertise it beforehand. Not something Apple usually does.
The old model could not do 4K HDR for 50/60hz source material
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
According to rumors from a while ago, the ATV4 and ATV4K were sold without the typical Apple profit margins of 30-40%.

There was even a rumor (I think from Jon Prosser) that Apple was selling the ATVs at a loss when factoring the R&D.

While I can believe that Apple might be selling with a small profit margin, I think that Apple selling ATVs at a loss is much harder to believe... Then again, look at ATV+... So, only Apple knows for sure.

All that said, I don't see a M1 Apple TV prices at $700 due to a much more capable and complex Mac Mini already costing that much, unless Apple is close to selling that to a loss (again, doubtful).

A pricing example, the ATV Pro or ATV Arcade, with the M1, 8GB RAM, only HDMI and Ethernet port, bundled with a gaming controller could cost $349 for 64GB, $399 for 128GB, and $499 for 256GB versions.

This would be a similar drop in price from the M1 iPad Pro that we see from the current A12 iPad and A12 ATV.
I think you're probably right about the margins. I have a hard time believing, that Apple is selling any hardware for a loss, though, even if it's to push services. Maybe Prosser will have more to say about that after his eyebrows grow back. I can see something like 15-20%.

You might be right about it their pricing strategy if their plan is just to offer a much more capable ATV4k. The M1 is a marvel but I don't think that alone is going to compete with a PS5 or XBX. Maybe a M1X will have enough juice along with Sony-like system level wizardry, which would most certainly be in the works. The real question, for me, is their overall strategy. Are they simply looking to grab a greater share of the gaming market and compete with Sony and Microsoft? Do they want to show off the capabilities of their silicon in a smaller, cooler package? Even how huge and ugly the PS5 is and how uninspired the XBX is, maybe. I'd argue, however, that it's more directly tied to AR/VR plans.

If the latest rumors are correct, Apple will be launching a VR or MR headset first with dual 8k lenses. It would seem that a least a first gen device like that would need to be tethered to some sort of box with a lot of graphics horsepower, and require significant and fast internal storage . I think it's reasonable to assume that they're working on something special for the GPU to run along with their SOC, but that's going to drive the price up. This is pretty much what Sony has done. We've heard that they've been using HTC Vive-like controllers for prototyping, so I guess their working with some powerful boxes in the lab akin to expensive gaming PC rigs. Sony, btw, gave us a peak of their next-gen VR controllers that also look to borrow from HTC. Given that a gaming PC equivalent to the PS5 is going to cost upwards of $1500, I can see Apple going with a more expensive box, arguing that it's a better value than a comparable PC an more performant than a PS5 in a smaller and prettier package. I think such a box would also require a couple of TB ports. Under those circumstances $700 doesn't seem that unreasonable, especially considering what people are willing to pay for an iPad. But you're right they might be more aggressive with pricing, I just wouldn't expect a machine as performant as I'd like.

A last question that I have is what's their software/app development strategy for AR/VR going forward and how might it relate to a gaming box? We've heard they are working with select gaming and presumably VR studios to work on new hardware, is this limited to porting existing games to an Apple console or is it more about developing new development frameworks. Most VR projects today rely on some form of integration with Unity or Unreal. I can't believe that they're going to rely on that. Sure, they have Reality Composer, but it's going to need a lot more work to be a viable platform for developing apps. Maybe they're working on a more robust game engine development environment separate from Xcode that is Swift based but no-code friendly to spur app and game development? Could be a core component of the rumored rOS.

Exciting times! I definitely see your point about pricing, I just worry that we'll be left with a mediocre product. Given the success of their silicon, I think Apple has a unique opportunity to make a major move in the gaming market that directly connects with their AR ambitions. If they can deliver a truly next-gen gaming experience, that builds upon their ecosystem along with a unique VR experience, I think they will have a seat at the table and can justify a slightly higher price tag.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but thanks for starting this thread–not many want to have a serious discussion about an Apple gaming console possibility. Hope we keep it going.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
I don’t believe they will update the Apple TV again so soon. Eventually it will get an M1 processor, but I think this will take a while.
The current Apple TV is clearly a stopgap, IMO. I think we'll see the product family expanded. We could see a "pro" version with a M-series chip that dovetails with next-gen AAA game capabilities, an Apple designed controller, and integration with the rumored VR headset. We could a peak or even release as early as this Fall but definitely by next year. It'll be pricier for sure, but maybe they keep a cheaper version with an M1 chip that could power a cloud based gaming service that I expect Apple Arcade will become. I just don't see the 2021 Apple TV as anything but a placeholder, too many other sign that say otherwise.
 
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sublunar

macrumors 68000
Jun 23, 2007
1,518
937
The video linked earlier in the thread is certainly interesting. Here's my take:

The 6th generation Apple TV seems to be a simple continuation of the existing product line with some tweaked features and a new remote being the headline features. I think that Apple want to discontinue the A10X line to free up some space for other CPU manufacture. The 2017 iPad Pro that used that CPU is long since gone (since it was replaced by the 2018 and 2020 variants).

And a games console would be a new product line which would want its own headline presentation. Before the April refresh I would have assumed that Apple would want to go with an A14x chipset - which might have come with 6 or 8Gb of RAM and a clock speed probably lower than what the M1 comes with.

Here's how I think Apple could get some high end tech into an Apple TV Pro and not overprice it.

The base M1 CPU used in the lowest SKU M1 MBA has one (typically faulty) GPU core deactivated. This has been flagged as reducing overall chip costs because it's re-using a chip which would otherwise have been thrown away by deactivating a faulty core.

Intel and AMD do it - it's called binning. And it's why the various Intel iMacs have different clock speeds as well as core counts.

But because Apple never quote Mhz speeds on the M1 CPU you have to presume that each one passes muster at the speed and Apple therefore currently throw away chips that have failed CPU cores or are unable to sustain the required clock speed.

Existing benchmarks aren't suggesting any of the M1 CPUs currently in circulation are clocked any differently to the others most people have assumed we will see M1 CPUs with suffixes to denote some change of feature.

For example M1X will have more CPU and GPU cores. I have gone as far as suggesting that M1X has more CPU cores while M1Z might have more GPU cores (and on top of the M1X CPU cores). This would denote that an M1X is an M1Z with some deactivated GPU cores for example - just like with the A12z and A12x.

But what if there was a plan in place for for a binning procedure being done on the M1 CPUs that don't meet the requirements to become M1 CPUs?

Previously we might have expected an A14x CPU to have the same 4+4 setup as the M1, but perhaps lower clocked. These might denote an M1 that isn't stable enough to be sold in an M1 Mac or iPad Pro.

You might also expect some of these chips to, like the 7 core GPU version of the M1, have one or two CPU cores disabled because they are faulty.

An A14x may never appear now because the iPad Pro has gone full M1 but if you compare the A12z with the M1 you see that the CPU was clocked a lot lower so it got me thinking.

We may reach a situation where, after a few months of manufacturing, Apple might have some kind of idea how many CPUs they are throwing away because a core failed or it can't stay stable at the reported 3.2GHz of the high performance Firestorm cores.

I'd dare say that Apple have good reason for wanting all 8 GPU cores to be functional in a games orientated AppleTV Pro.

So we could have a future device powered by a binned version of the M1 but marketing wise Apple may not want to call it an M1 CPU because it would be slower than the ones going into the Macs.

There's plenty of letters available, but I say say that M1X and M1Z might be reserved for high performance versions of the M1, this leaves us something like M1T (for TV).

This nominal M1T could have 2 or 3 Firestorm Cores, or 4 Firestorm cores that run slower than the regular M1 for sustained heat reasons. Apple could be looking at binning stats to see what is the most cost effective CPU configuration to reclaim for use in the lower tier product.

So why didn't they launch it now alongside the AppleTV 6th generation?

For me, announcing at WWDC would be the perfect time to brief developers to create product ahead of the holiday season and perhaps demo existing secret product, possibly even pre-announce some games and mention if they have some studios and AAA titles on board.

As a footnote - what a spoiler it would be for the Epic case if Apple have seen that Sony and Microsoft are struggling to get their consoles out for the next 18 months. If Apple were to come out with a games console M1 variant for £499 it'd only be priced slightly behind the Mac mini which starts at £699 with 2 Thunderbolt ports and 256Gb storage.

Would it then be easy to imagine a super base model coming with M1T CPU, USB-C ports instead of Thunderbolt, and a HDMI port, and either 64 or 128Gb storage and only running tvOS? Throw in some iMac style pastel colours too :) - could Apple make all Apple TV Pros Product Red or instance? And the M1T might be a slightly under clocked machine with just 2 or 3 high performance cores.

They could even keep the existing Mac mini case and drive home the silent running next generation console angle.

For me, WWDC would be the ideal place to launch the product when the M1 will be seen as an ageing CPU if it's not actually superseded by an M2 which you might expect to be based on the technology used in the A15 CPU.

The big plus point then is that writing apps for a low spec M1 means they could potentially all be ported to macOS - or vice versa depending on target audience.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
The video linked earlier in the thread is certainly interesting. Here's my take:
...
Some excellent points here! I had considered the binning strategy as well. Makes a lot of sense the use the M1s in as many products as possible. A bonus might be that you can play Arcade games on a variety of devices without steep performance drops. I'm kind of think they'll wait for some M1X/Z/whatever variant that has more GPU cores or increased graphics performance. Perhaps even a dedicated Apple designed GPU.

I think it would be smart to add two tiers of games. First, a cloud based streaming service based on Apple Arcade with all games playable on all Apple devices. Second, high-end AAA class games that are downloadable and tuned for Apple designed graphics. Ideally, they buy a studio or two and develop games that take advantage of Apple hardware like the U-series chips, maybe the Apple Watch, and spacial audio. All of this, of course, would benefit the VR/AR headset currently in development.

If Apple can offer some unique take on graphics performance (perhaps with new frameworks, and developer tools), I think they can compete with Sony and Microsoft. I see them focusing on a few premium exclusives with a narrative focus like Sony, who is smartly leveraging their game IPs across TV, and movies like the upcoming Last of Us and Uncharted series. I can see Apple doing something like that with Apple TV+, perhaps with a VR bent. They've already done this with For All Mankind and featured Vader Immortal on the Vive at WWDC.

How ever the work it out, I think they have to invest further into gaming to stay in the home market. There's also so much overlap with their AR ambitions outside of gaming.
 
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KittyKatta

macrumors 6502a
Feb 24, 2011
911
881
SoCal
All that said, I don't see a M1 Apple TV prices at $700 due to a much more capable and complex Mac Mini already costing that much, unless Apple is close to selling that to a loss (again, doubtful).

A pricing example, the ATV Pro or ATV Arcade, with the M1, 8GB RAM, only HDMI and Ethernet port, bundled with a gaming controller could cost $349 for 64GB, $399 for 128GB, and $499 for 256GB versions.
The AppleTV is a 14 year old product so I feel that the AppleTV should evolve into something far more than just TV and Gaming.

To me, I would like to see a version of the AppleTV that is the central hub of your home with your TV as its monitor. Put on a Center Stage camera, better integration into HomeKit, Siri, Mesh network, iCloud, FaceTime. Let it be a HUD for Messaging and put some actual effort into Siri so that it actually can access things like family calendars or intercom.

I know many feel that this is intended to be a TV box so it shouldnt do anything else, but the original AppleTVs used to have so many hacks that made it pretty cool at the time so I dont think there's anything wrong with having a powerful device do powerful things.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
The AppleTV is a 14 year old product so I feel that the AppleTV should evolve into something far more than just TV and Gaming.

To me, I would like to see a version of the AppleTV that is the central hub of your home with your TV as its monitor. Put on a Center Stage camera, better integration into HomeKit, Siri, Mesh network, iCloud, FaceTime. Let it be a HUD for Messaging and put some actual effort into Siri so that it actually can access things like family calendars or intercom.

I know many feel that this is intended to be a TV box so it shouldnt do anything else, but the original AppleTVs used to have so many hacks that made it pretty cool at the time so I dont think there's anything wrong with having a powerful device do powerful things.
100% agree. I mentioned in other posts that I think they need develop the AppleTV into a more power device that serves the home market and develop new types of apps that serve that space like mesh networking, video conferencing, managing A/V systems, and security. I also hope they name it something else. Gaming, of course, is a gateway to that effort and I'd like them to aim for best-in-class. The same can be said for AR/VR headsets. There's a whole universe of apps waiting to be made that touch interests and industries that most people haven't considered yet. A lot of people are going to feel more comfortable adjusting to those in the comfort of home. I'm thinking education, industry, engineering, and the arts. Of course gaming and porn will be a driver for early adopters, but who cares. Having a central home hub that helps integrate the greater Apple ecosystem. It doesn't have to be the only hub or node but I think it could be a really important one.
 
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Bodhitree

macrumors regular
Apr 5, 2021
127
101
With the Apple TV they are basically caught between wanting to create a cheap streaming box and a more competent gaming box. Stick in more expensive components like more RAM, storage and a bigger processor and it will become too expensive to be a streaming box.

I do think that the M1 will eventually come to the Apple TV, but only in a couple of years time, when the rest of the product line has moved on and they have capacity to spare. So it may be an idea to play a waiting game with the Apple TV box, and eventually it will sort of become a games machine.

I think Nintendo proves that you don’t have to have cutting edge hardware to have good games on your platform, but not everyone has the exclusive content that Nintendo brings to their consoles. Without functioning as a first-party publisher Apple may find it difficult to get top-quality titles onto the Apple TV.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
How is the M1 for gaming on Mac doing ?
From video reviews that I've seen it's much improved but still needs a more powerful GPU solution to truly impress. I think all the examples I've seen have games running in Rosetta, though. The literal game changing potential is there, though. Getting studios on board is going to be the key.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
Current ATV is £189. A suped up one for gaming could be what.. £289? At those prices you may as well get a PS5
PS5 is $500 US if you can get one. I got lucky and really like mine, especially the fast SSD and controllers, but it gets hot, the fans are loud, and it's really ugly IMO. I'd love to see what Apple could do with an M-series chip, an Apple designed GPU, and games tuned for such a device. I also think it could be really important for their overall product strategy by becoming much more than a gaming machine and keeping Apple fans locked into their ecosystem. You're right a lot of people are going to text get a PS5 or XBX and use their consoles to access streaming apps and potentially Android apps. I think Apple push the industry if they got serious about gaming and there's enough smoke to suggest they might be. I would expect it to be cheaper than a PS5 given that Sony sells its hardware at a loss, but maybe since they don't have to buy chips from Intel or AMD. I do think they should keep a cheaper box around for those only interested in streaming and Arcade style games.
 
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nutmac

macrumors 603
Mar 30, 2004
5,060
4,205
As much as I would love Apple TV with M1, I just don't see it happening.

While I am fond of Apple Arcade (go Sneaky Sasquatch!), it's a joke compared to PlayStation Now and Xbox Game Pass. That isn't going to change until Apple buys at least few AAA game studios. Putting M1, additional storage (64GB isn't going to be enough for AAA), and gaming controller into Apple TV would increase the price by $100-200.

Even then, it's going to be an uphill battle for ultimately, not that much more gain.
 
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unsui_grep

macrumors member
Jan 6, 2019
61
40
As much as I would love Apple TV with M1, I just don't see it happening.

While I am fond of Apple Arcade (go Sneaky Sasquatch!), it's a joke compared to PlayStation Now and Xbox Game Pass. That isn't going to change until Apple buys at least few AAA game studios. Putting M1, additional storage (64GB isn't going to be enough for AAA), and gaming controller into Apple TV would increase the price by $100-200.

Even then, it's going to be an uphill battle for ultimately, not that much more gain.
Totally valid points. All of this is wishful thinking, but there’s enough credible rumors/reports that they’re investing big money into gaming for us to speculate/dream. I don’t think many saw the M1 coming to the iPad, yet here it is. Seems like they’d want games to be played across multiple devices I so bring an M series chip seems plausible. I don’t see them entering into the AAA gaming market just to do it. I think it dovetails with their AR/VR ambitions which, as it currently stands, might require game engines to sell the headsets to the public. I don’t think they want to rely on Unreal or even Unity. They need to partner with studios for games and it would benefit AR/VR as well. I agree, they need to make some acquisitions. Perhaps most importantly, they need to protect their ecosystem and emerging platforms. Unreal is poised to hit a bunch of industries that Apple is targeting with their headsets. They need to answer while building upon the home market, as it stands now the PS5 makes the current Apple TV kind of useless. Wait until next gen Sony VR hits. Apple Silicon has the potential to smoke PS5 performance, if they get the GPU right. Lastly, I agree, an M series Apple TV with a native controller won’t be cheap, but if it’s a couple hundred $ more than a PS5, they might be able to get away with it. It doesn’t hurt that the PS5 is hard to find right now.
 
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