New gaming Apple TV coming with maybe the M1?

[George Dawes]

Apple always come late to the party then end up owning it all , never underestimate them

I can see an appletv extreme with an m1 with 8 gigs of ram and a 128 gb ssd causing a bit of console commotion, Nintendo should be worried … apple can go for Sony in a years time when the m2/3 comes out

 

[nutmac]

I don’t think many saw the M1 coming to the iPad, yet here it is. Seems like they’d want games to be played across multiple devices I so bring an M series chip seems plausible. I don’t see them entering into the AAA gaming market just to do it. I think it dovetails with their AR/VR ambitions which, as it currently stands, might require game engines to sell the headsets to the public. I don’t think they want to rely on Unreal or even Unity. They need to partner with studios for games and it would benefit AR/VR as well.

Regarding M1 on iPad Pro. More I think about it, more it makes sense. Why make A14X when M1 offers everything iPad Pro needs, even if it has some stuff it doesn't need (e.g., Rosetta 2, dual Thunderbolt ports controller)? In this time of global shortage of semiconductors, it's in Apple's best interest to tighten its chip production. Apple's current line up (bold indicates newest generation):

• A8: Apple TV HD
• A10: iPod touch
• A12: Apple TV 4K, iPad, iPad mini, iPhone XR
• A13: iPhone SE, iPhone 11
• A14: iPad Air, iPhone 12
• M1: 24-inch iMac, iPad Pro, MacBook Air, 13-inch MacBook Pro, Mac mini
• S3: Apple Watch 3
• S5: Apple Watch SE, HomePod mini
• S6: Apple Watch 6

Tim Cook has likely ordered to stop producing A8, A10, A13, and S3. As they dry up, products will be refreshed (e.g., iPhone SE) or discontinued (e.g., Apple TV HD, iPod Touch, Apple Watch 3).

As for hypothetical Apple TV for gamers, I am not sure even M1 (2.6 TFLOPS) is good enough to compete against PlayStation 5 (10.3 TFLOPS) and Xbox Series X (12 TFLOPS), let alone $299 Xbox Series S (4 TFLOPS). Do you really want to spend $299 or more for gaming focused Apple TV when Xbox Series S is far more capable with superior selection of games? Maybe few of us do, but I suspect most won't.

VR is more interesting possibility. Like iPhone before it, with VR, Apple can make more serious dent in the gaming market. With Apple's VR rumored to be very expensive and competitors not exactly standing still, I think it's too early to speculate. Apple can start laying the foundation by acquiring AAA gaming studios and make their own gaming controller.

 

[unsui_grep]

As for hypothetical Apple TV for gamers, I am not sure even M1 (2.6 TFLOPS) is good enough to compete against PlayStation 5 (10.3 TFLOPS) and Xbox Series X (12 TFLOPS), let alone $299 Xbox Series S (4 TFLOPS). Do you really want to spend $299 or more for gaming focused Apple TV when Xbox Series S is far more capable with superior selection of games? Maybe few of us do, but I suspect most won't.

VR is more interesting possibility. Like iPhone before it, with VR, Apple can make more serious dent in the gaming market. With Apple's VR rumored to be very expensive and competitors not exactly standing still, I think it's too early to speculate. Apple can start laying the foundation by acquiring AAA gaming studios and make their own gaming controller.

I agree with you on several points. I don't think the M1 as it stands is good enough to compete as it stands. They'll need at least an M1X type variant with a beefier GPU. Ideally they put in an Apple designed GPU. I think they have something cooking in that department. If that's the case then it's going to be on par with PS5 and XBX, so $500 or more with a controller included.

As for VR, there's been reports that their were internal debates between Jony Ive and Dan Riccio regarding whether the headsets should be wirelessly tethered to a box. Initially, it sounds like Ive won but, of course, he's moved on and Riccio is now said to be working on the VR headsets, which will be followed by AR glasses. VR is definitely a home/office based product, so a powerful M series box with a U series chip, and spatial audio would be a boon. First gen headsets are likely expensive, but if they're featuring 8k lenses and an array of camera and audio trickery, maybe they can impress enough beyond the developer crowd and pave the path toward AR glasses. Again, working with studios and developing game engine/real-time 3d rendering tech will be key.

With regards to gaming, they have to probably acquire a couple of studios and/or work with existing big names to bring AAA games to their console. Focus on a handful of high end narrative driven games and keep developing Apple Arcade as an alternative to Xbox Pass. Maybe to could go the cloud gaming approach, but I don't think they have the backend infrastructure to pull that off. Hopefully they're working on it.

Lastly, I think they need to keep pushing the platform to be more than streaming apps and games. They need to keep at the home automation market. Adopting the Thread mesh standard was a good move, if a future Apple TV could double as a mesh networking hub, you've got an extremely intriguing product that can actually claim a lot of value for the money. Particularly if it plays well with future Apple audio devices.

In short, I think if they want to compete against Sony and Microsoft, and maintain their ecosystem, they have to break new ground in several areas to make up for their lack of gaming experience and catalogue. I was lucky enough to score a PS5. I really like it; but it's a huge, hot, and ugly beast. It would be amazing if Apple could provide similar or greater performance in a small and sleek package, that looks good next to a TV. If it's ever going to happen, their new silicon and their VR/AR ambitions provide the perfect opportunity.

 

[diamond.g]

Does Apple have enough of an AppleTV audience to warrant buying a game studio/developer, or making an exclusive game?

 

[JeffPerrin]

Signs (ie. the rumors) looks good, but as they say, "Content is king." Apple NEEDS to bring (or buy) a name-brand AAA console title for consumers to take notice and get on board. Simply putting mobile games on a "bigger screen" won't cut it. (Why would it, if the game runs just as well on an iPad?)

When it comes to gaming on the big screen, no amount of hardware will make up for a shortcoming of quality console-style content.

 

[gnomeisland]

Hard to say where Apple is going. The current refresh feels like too little too late but the pieces are still there.

Content-wise, Apple has shown with AppleTV (service) that they'll drop big money if needed.

Hardware-wise, up to a point, Apple Silicon chips get cheaper (per unit) the more the same design gets used since the biggest cost is design and setup. The M1 is amazing but more CPU than GPU so not ideal in an Apple Arcade focused box.

IMO, the thing to watch is what chip Apple releases next and how it is implemented. They've got to cover pro laptops and pro desktops. They'll have a GPU that at least comes close to mid-level AMD/NVIDIA discrete graphics.

I wonder if they'll got for a chiplet design, allowing them to keep the SOC approach but allow for more thermal flex—customize the type/number of chiplets for the intended TDP/usage. AMD is doing some similar already.

That would open up the possibility of an AppleTV/console with a smaller CPU and beefier GPU.

 

[unsui_grep]

Does Apple have enough of an AppleTV audience to warrant buying a game studio/developer, or making an exclusive game?

Good question. I think they might if it's tethered to their VR/AR ambitions. Games are going to be the entry point for most. It's really about real-time 3d rendering so I think they'll need studios involved at some point. As it stands, Unity and Unreal dominate the VR development process. Clearly, they're not going to want to rely on them with so much riding on their headsets. If they have some compelling tech in development, it makes sense to take a shot at Sony and Microsoft as the console market is creating a huge hole in their ecosystem.

 

[Bluetoot-]

Bring back the Pippin!

I’d buy an Apple “console” TODAY. Come on now, Cook-ie baby, give me a lil’ something.

 

[Bluetoot-]

While I am fond of Apple Arcade (go Sneaky Sasquatch!), it's a joke compared to PlayStation Now and Xbox Game Pass. That isn't going to change until Apple buys at least few AAA game studios.

I think we’d need to hear something at WWDC this year if this would ever happen.

 

[Bodhitree]

I doubt any such announcement will be made at WWDC, I think Apple doesn’t want to dilute its focus and the update to the Apple TV says we’re not pursuing a gaming solution at the moment. But getting a good set of exclusives on different devices is something that will take time.

 

[sublunar]

Regarding M1 on iPad Pro. More I think about it, more it makes sense. Why make A14X when M1 offers everything iPad Pro needs, even if it has some stuff it doesn't need (e.g., Rosetta 2, dual Thunderbolt ports controller)? In this time of global shortage of semiconductors, it's in Apple's best interest to tighten its chip production. Apple's current line up (bold indicates newest generation):

• A8: Apple TV HD
• A10: iPod touch
• A12: Apple TV 4K, iPad, iPad mini, iPhone XR
• A13: iPhone SE, iPhone 11
• A14: iPad Air, iPhone 12
• M1: 24-inch iMac, iPad Pro, MacBook Air, 13-inch MacBook Pro, Mac mini
• S3: Apple Watch 3
• S5: Apple Watch SE, HomePod mini
• S6: Apple Watch 6

Tim Cook has likely ordered to stop producing A8, A10, A13, and S3. As they dry up, products will be refreshed (e.g., iPhone SE) or discontinued (e.g., Apple TV HD, iPod Touch, Apple Watch 3).

As for hypothetical Apple TV for gamers, I am not sure even M1 (2.6 TFLOPS) is good enough to compete against PlayStation 5 (10.3 TFLOPS) and Xbox Series X (12 TFLOPS), let alone $299 Xbox Series S (4 TFLOPS). Do you really want to spend $299 or more for gaming focused Apple TV when Xbox Series S is far more capable with superior selection of games? Maybe few of us do, but I suspect most won't.

VR is more interesting possibility. Like iPhone before it, with VR, Apple can make more serious dent in the gaming market. With Apple's VR rumored to be very expensive and competitors not exactly standing still, I think it's too early to speculate. Apple can start laying the foundation by acquiring AAA gaming studios and make their own gaming controller.

The A series chips used in phones will have a long life as the phone conveyor belt sees the phone range move downfield and older phones go to third party retailers. It's the edge cases like the iPod touch, HomePod, AppleTV which were already using aged A series CPUs where the savings could be made by refreshing or discontinuing.

The A13 CPU is likely to end up as the base model for the iPhone business going into next year from the logical direction of travel. This means it'll still be made for official Apple product into September 2022.

But you also have unofficial Apple production for outdated models - you could reasonably expect the Xr to leave Apple's official lineup but still be available at third party retailers at a discounted price (and a very attractive product too if priced right) for a year or two. So the A13 CPU will continue to be made for a year or two after official production ends if Apple decide that the low price SE can continue with price cuts at third party retailers.

The A8 is still in the official lineup as the AppleTV HD - ratified again since the range was refreshed with the 6th Gen 4k model. It's therefore going nowhere for the moment as it's a placeholder to upsell people to the 'proper' AppleTV.

The A10 being used in the iPod touch might be due a refresh if they want to move on from that - especially since they did away with the A10X used in the AppleTV 5th gen - I believe there are retailers that would use the iPod touch as a POS tool and the 7th gen touch supports iOS 14. If Apple needed to free up the CPU line they could refresh it to the A12 chipset but they need to weigh up development costs with the benefit gained from not using the A10 any more.

As for gaming - Apple won't be cutting their unit margins so can't really get involved in the games console game - unless there's some sort of strategy coming in response to the Epic games suit.

The AppleTV refresh kind of puts paid to that anyway, why would you buy a $200 AppleTV if a $300 games console with M1 arrives months later? It might have been interesting had Apple offered high storage tiers in the newly launched 6th gen AppleTV but that just shows how uninterested in AAA gaming that Apple are as those games typically need more storage (although maximum app size on AppleTV is 4Gb, anything else needs to be streamed).

Having said that, they could do a storage bump in the future to double the options to 64/128 as mooted in the recent rumours.

 

[diamond.g]

Good question. I think they might if it's tethered to their VR/AR ambitions. Games are going to be the entry point for most. It's really about real-time 3d rendering so I think they'll need studios involved at some point. As it stands, Unity and Unreal dominate the VR development process. Clearly, they're not going to want to rely on them with so much riding on their headsets. If they have some compelling tech in development, it makes sense to take a shot at Sony and Microsoft as the console market is creating a huge hole in their ecosystem.

MS has basically forgone VR with it’s consoles, leaving Sony to go it alone. Even so it isn’t that popular in the gaming space, from what I can tell. Apple is going to have an interesting time getting game developers to support such a niche of a niche (imo).

After seeing Returnal, and RC:Rift Apart it seems to me that Apple would potentially have a long hill to climb to prove to gamers that they are a viable AAA platform.

 

[TVreporter]

Canadian price for the 64GB with taxes comes to $280… ugh…

I had high hopes for this box in that it would be a step forward for gaming but the more I read, the less impressed I am. I don’t know if I can justify that price on what amounts to a minor upgrade.

The addition of Thread is probably its biggest asset for anyone into HomeKit devices.

 

[unsui_grep]

MS has basically forgone VR with it’s consoles, leaving Sony to go it alone. Even so it isn’t that popular in the gaming space, from what I can tell. Apple is going to have an interesting time getting game developers to support such a niche of a niche (imo).

After seeing Returnal, and RC:Rift Apart it seems to me that Apple would potentially have a long hill to climb to prove to gamers that they are a viable AAA platform.

For sure, but one of the big reasons I'm speculating is because they are rumored to be spending "BIG" money on AAA level games and working with developers and studios, supposedly even giving them hardware prototypes. I guess the question is: is there room for another big player in the console space? I think the answer is yes if they can differentiate themselves while also challenging FB's Oculus. As next-gen consoles essentially approach gaming PC specs, I think Apple has a chance to show off the potential of their silicon in a smaller, cooler, and prettier package. It doesn't hurt that the PS5 and XBX are so hard to get right now. I would never expect them to achieve market dominance, but if they can add extra value by establishing tvOS as a legit app development platform tethered to AR/VR devices with home automation, spatial audio integration, and perhaps mesh networking capabilities, I think sell a compelling product. The gaming market is going to continue to expand and it's tech dovetails with Apple's other ambitions. I'd also add that while they don't have the experience of Sony and Microsoft they do know a thing or two about haptics. The PS5 controllers are great but I bet Apple could compete there alone.

 

[Bodhitree]

Does Apple have enough of an AppleTV audience to warrant buying a game studio/developer, or making an exclusive game?

Getting good first-party content isn’t something that works exclusively on the Apple TV, it would also help the Mac and potentially make money on iOS and iPadOS. Once Apple had one or several good IPs they could leverage them across all their platforms. It would introduce certain gaming high points on the different platforms.

 

[pmiles]

Apple has had ample opportunity over the years to get into (desktop) gaming. From the moment the first INTEL Mac was announced until today. The reality is, unless you can get developers to make games for your platform, you HAVE NO PLATFORM.

It has never been about the hardware... Apple could make the worlds best gaming rig but if no one wants to write games for it, it might as well be a door stop. THAT IS THE PROBLEM with gaming on a Mac. No one wants to spend the time developing games for it when they could stick with what they have always been doing and making games for Windows.

Apple Arcade is an iOS game platform. Mobile games. Apple has a very big head start on mobile gaming compared to it's competitors. The same cannot be said for its desktop platform where the shoe is on the other foot.

If iOS were about as popular as OSX, they'd have no foot to stand on. It's because iOS is so big that developers for that platform flock to it. They're already here, writing mobile games. They're not going anywhere. It is also THE LARGEST AND FASTEST growing gaming market ON THE PLANET.

 

[diamond.g]

For sure, but one of the big reasons I'm speculating is because they are rumored to be spending "BIG" money on AAA level games and working with developers and studios, supposedly even giving them hardware prototypes. I guess the question is: is there room for another big player in the console space? I think the answer is yes if they can differentiate themselves while also challenging FB's Oculus. As next-gen consoles essentially approach gaming PC specs, I think Apple has a chance to show off the potential of their silicon in a smaller, cooler, and prettier package. It doesn't hurt that the PS5 and XBX are so hard to get right now. I would never expect them to achieve market dominance, but if they can add extra value by establishing tvOS as a legit app development platform tethered to AR/VR devices with home automation, spatial audio integration, and perhaps mesh networking capabilities, I think sell a compelling product. The gaming market is going to continue to expand and it's tech dovetails with Apple's other ambitions. I'd also add that while they don't have the experience of Sony and Microsoft they do know a thing or two about haptics. The PS5 controllers are great but I bet Apple could compete there alone.

Does 14.5 bring support for the adaptive triggers of the Dual Sense? That seems to be really where the magic is (based on my playthrough of Astro’s Playroom). In the console space it seems like things like haptics (or the adaptive triggers) are showcased with first party studios games versus multiplatform games.

There is plenty of room for another console, they just need to have the games people are going to want to pay ideally for the last gen pricing (since digital only) with tons of storage or the ability to expand it. $399 is probably the high end for a disc less system with less than 512Gib storage, unless it comes with VR hardware then $599 is probably doable, though historically MS and Sony have had a hard time selling systems for that price (MS dropped Kinect to get the One price down, Sony gave up the lead from the PS2 cause of the PS3 pricing).

 

[diamond.g]

Getting good first-party content isn’t something that works exclusively on the Apple TV, it would also help the Mac and potentially make money on iOS and iPadOS. Once Apple had one or several good IPs they could leverage them across all their platforms. It would introduce certain gaming high points on the different platforms.

They should start with the AppleTV as the main platform. Have full sized full experience games there first, then branch onto bringing those experiences cut down to iOS, or side porting to macOS.

 

[Bodhitree]

Apple has had ample opportunity over the years to get into (desktop) gaming. From the moment the first INTEL Mac was announced until today. The reality is, unless you can get developers to make games for your platform, you HAVE NO PLATFORM.

It has never been about the hardware... Apple could make the worlds best gaming rig but if no one wants to write games for it, it might as well be a door stop. THAT IS THE PROBLEM with gaming on a Mac.

Not entirely true. Look at what Nintendo did with the Wii and the Switch, they put out hardware with a handful of titles, and most of the big ones were first party. If you have a strong set of first party developers, you can make even non-cutting-edge hardware into a compelling platform that gamers will buy.

The problem is that people try to treat the Mac the same as a PC when it comes to gaming. It’s not. Graphically, the Mac is the PCs weaker cousin, you don’t see Mac gaming rigs with a 3090 NVidia card. But you don’t need these high-powered game engines. Nintendo’s games prove that you don’t need photo-realistic rendering to achieve a great gaming environment. You need first-party games to make the platforms respected as a destination.

Apple’s size makes it look like they manage a successful gaming market, but it’s disproportionately weighted towards mobile. The iOS and (arguably) iPadOS markets are doing great, but the Mac just gets by on a steady diet of ports and the Apple TV is mostly seen as a streaming box.

 

[unsui_grep]

Apple has had ample opportunity over the years to get into (desktop) gaming. From the moment the first INTEL Mac was announced until today. The reality is, unless you can get developers to make games for your platform, you HAVE NO PLATFORM.

It has never been about the hardware... Apple could make the worlds best gaming rig but if no one wants to write games for it, it might as well be a door stop. THAT IS THE PROBLEM with gaming on a Mac. No one wants to spend the time developing games for it when they could stick with what they have always been doing and making games for Windows.

Apple Arcade is an iOS game platform. Mobile games. Apple has a very big head start on mobile gaming compared to it's competitors. The same cannot be said for its desktop platform where the shoe is on the other foot.

If iOS were about as popular as OSX, they'd have no foot to stand on. It's because iOS is so big that developers for that platform flock to it. They're already here, writing mobile games. They're not going anywhere. It is also THE LARGEST AND FASTEST growing gaming market ON THE PLANET.

Your first point is correct. It's been made by me and others over and over in this thread. Again, one of the main reasons we're speculating is because they are reportedly working with developers. I think you're wrong about the hardware though. Yes, Apple could have made a gaming x86 PC with a big, hot, NVDIA gpu but that's not the kind of hardware they were interested in. The M series chips, however, change that calculus. I'd also say that the timing is right as consoles have evolved into media streaming and Services machines, areas where Apple clearly has a vested interest. Why get an Apple TV when you have a PS5, XBX, or smart TV?

You're right, they have a head start on mobile gaming and Apple Arcade is great for that but could be improved or at least evolve. Arcade can now be played on any device. Cloud gaming is a possibility here as well as, though I don't think they have backend infrastructure for that yet.

The real question is why would Apple want to build a console competing box? It will require a major investment and an uphill climb. I argue it's a strategic necessity. Game studios and engines such as Unity and Unreal are going to be the major drivers for AR/VR. Apple is very clearly and publicly betting and investing a lot in in those areas. Do you think that they'll want to rely on Epic or Unity for content creation? They need an answer if they want to hardware and continue to build on Services revenue. A console grade home hub could be that answer. It's also an opportunity to get their house in order with regard to home automation and tvOS app potential. Adopting the Thread mesh networking standard was a smart move.

Of course all of this is just fun speculation, but there are many credible rumors that they are investing heavily in gaming and developing new hardware. Apple has a unique opportunity with Apple silicon and the current media/gaming landscape, so why not think about what that would/could look like?

 

[unsui_grep]

They should start with the AppleTV as the main platform. Have full sized full experience games there first, then branch onto bringing those experiences cut down to iOS, or side porting to macOS.

I could see them developing high end AAA games that are playable on macOS if they're using M1X type chips. We already have the M1 on the iPad. Apple Arcade would continue to be playable on any Apple device. Could also evolve into a cloud gaming platform.

 

[unsui_grep]

Does 14.5 bring support for the adaptive triggers of the Dual Sense? That seems to be really where the magic is (based on my playthrough of Astro’s Playroom). In the console space it seems like things like haptics (or the adaptive triggers) are showcased with first party studios games versus multiplatform games.

There is plenty of room for another console, they just need to have the games people are going to want to pay ideally for the last gen pricing (since digital only) with tons of storage or the ability to expand it. $399 is probably the high end for a disc less system with less than 512Gib storage, unless it comes with VR hardware then $599 is probably doable, though historically MS and Sony have had a hard time selling systems for that price (MS dropped Kinect to get the One price down, Sony gave up the lead from the PS2 cause of the PS3 pricing).

You're right about the triggers. Apple could do something special with haptics with a game controller and whatever they're planning for their VR headsets. Spacial audio would factor in as well. Need to check out Returnal, it's supposed the really shine in both areas. Internal storage is my biggest question. The iPad Pro now has a 1 and 2 TB option but it's expensive, of course. Would they add a USB-C port for expansion? I imagine those VR files get pretty heavy quick.

 

[unsui_grep]

I doubt any such announcement will be made at WWDC, I think Apple doesn’t want to dilute its focus and the update to the Apple TV says we’re not pursuing a gaming solution at the moment. But getting a good set of exclusives on different devices is something that will take time.

I could see a Fall event that introduces their VR headset along with an AppleTV pro level machine. I think they'd want have people there to get their hands on them. They could even beat Sony to the punch with next gen VR. Sony is having a hard time keeping up with the PS5 demand and the global chip shortage is expected to last through 2022. There are rumors that a VR headset won't debut until 2022, though.

 

[diamond.g]

You're right about the triggers. Apple could do something special with haptics with a game controller and whatever they're planning for their VR headsets. Spacial audio would factor in as well. Need to check out Returnal, it's supposed the really shine in both areas. Internal storage is my biggest question. The iPad Pro now has a 1 and 2 TB option but it's expensive, of course. Would they add a USB-C port for expansion? I imagine those VR files get pretty heavy quick.

Returnal isn’t my cup of tea, but I have Ratchet and Clank on pre-order.

Nintendo does well because it has “legendary” IP. Has Nintendo came out with any new IP since Splatoon?

 

[unsui_grep]

Returnal isn’t my cup of tea, but I have Ratchet and Clank on pre-order.

Nintendo does well because it has “legendary” IP. Has Nintendo came out with any new IP since Splatoon?

Ratchet and Clank looks really good. Amazingly, I never got into Nintendo, but I could see Apple targeting that market, I guess the kind of already do. Rumors point to them developing a Breath of the Wild-like game.