New gaming Apple TV coming with maybe the M1?

[unsui_grep]

https://www.macrumors.com/2021/05/01/ios-14-6-beta-6-hifi-apple-music/

This is something I want in an AppleTV console. These sort of features could really help differentiate it and help sell a lot of AirPods and HomePods in the process. Could be amazing for gaming and VR as well.

Funny, I kept thinking of gaming oriented approach to the Apple TV as a sort of throwback hi-fi system that's sleek and modern, somewhere between a Mac mini and current gen Apple TV. A multimedia, gaming, and home tuned mesh networked hub would actually be a device where I'd want a Touch Bar type display. Maybe even something with a larger display the could have Apple Music mini-play type functionality. I think adding all that functionality relieves the pressure of not having a ton of AAA games. Could also bring new gamers into the fold and again add to Services revenue. Apple, please make my dream machine!

 

[subjonas]

I didn’t read this whole thread but what I did see seems to put together a reasonable case for this beefier Apple box.
I think the timing of Apple now focusing more on services and the rumors of the upcoming mixed reality headset are what give this idea significant credence for me.
I think unless Apple sells at a big loss, it will be expensive though. With special controllers, probably a whole newly designed box unit, and powerful internals (I’m thinking it will be > M1), I could see it being $500 or more. The headset would be optional but cost a lot too.
Because of the high price, I think the regular Apple TV will continue for people who just want a streaming box.

I don’t know if the combined Apple TV / HomePod rumor plays a part here though. I’m not sure what to think of the rumor itself. It just doesn’t make much sense to me to combine the two.

 

[pmiles]

Your first point is correct. It's been made by me and others over and over in this thread. Again, one of the main reasons we're speculating is because they are reportedly working with developers. I think you're wrong about the hardware though. Yes, Apple could have made a gaming x86 PC with a big, hot, NVDIA gpu but that's not the kind of hardware they were interested in. The M series chips, however, change that calculus. I'd also say that the timing is right as consoles have evolved into media streaming and Services machines, areas where Apple clearly has a vested interest. Why get an Apple TV when you have a PS5, XBX, or smart TV?

You're right, they have a head start on mobile gaming and Apple Arcade is great for that but could be improved or at least evolve. Arcade can now be played on any device. Cloud gaming is a possibility here as well as, though I don't think they have backend infrastructure for that yet.

The real question is why would Apple want to build a console competing box? It will require a major investment and an uphill climb. I argue it's a strategic necessity. Game studios and engines such as Unity and Unreal are going to be the major drivers for AR/VR. Apple is very clearly and publicly betting and investing a lot in in those areas. Do you think that they'll want to rely on Epic or Unity for content creation? They need an answer if they want to hardware and continue to build on Services revenue. A console grade home hub could be that answer. It's also an opportunity to get their house in order with regard to home automation and tvOS app potential. Adopting the Thread mesh networking standard was a smart move.

Of course all of this is just fun speculation, but there are many credible rumors that they are investing heavily in gaming and developing new hardware. Apple has a unique opportunity with Apple silicon and the current media/gaming landscape, so why not think about what that would/could look like?

People who buy a streaming box are not doing so because they want to game with it. I know a lot of people who have consoles and smart TVs who also have a streaming box (be it Roku, AppleTV, Fire, et al). They use the streaming box almost exclusively for streaming. And it's been that way for years.

Mobile gaming makes far more money than desktop gaming ever will. Hell it probably beats console gaming by a landslide as well. If making money is king, and we know that it is, that's where Apple will focus its efforts on.

I don't see AR/VR ever taking off in this decade. I certainly don't want a device a mere inch or two away from my eyes housed in what could be described as a watermelon strapped to your forehead. I hate wearing glasses and they are a million times less intrusive. If people could only watch movies on such a device strapped to their heads, the entertainment industry would literally tank overnight. It's not the entertainment solution people are looking for... any more than 3D TV was... it's a novelty at best.

 

[sublunar]

I didn’t read this whole thread but what I did see seems to put together a reasonable case for this beefier Apple box.
I think the timing of Apple now focusing more on services and the rumors of the upcoming mixed reality headset are what give this idea significant credence for me.
I think unless Apple sells at a big loss, it will be expensive though. With special controllers, probably a whole newly designed box unit, and powerful internals (I’m thinking it will be > M1), I could see it being $500 or more. The headset would be optional but cost a lot too.
Because of the high price, I think the regular Apple TV will continue for people who just want a streaming box.

I don’t know if the combined Apple TV / HomePod rumor plays a part here though. I’m not sure what to think of the rumor itself. It just doesn’t make much sense to me to combine the two.

I don't think Apple will be interested in following Sony and Microsoft into their games field, at best they will be a Nintendo type player - family orientated games in a less capable but still popular console mainly due to the software titles.

One thing Apple will have a lead in is developing a highly efficient computing system which could be head mounted without making a hat which doubles as a space heater. This could give Apple the lead in VR games which will naturally require expensive hardware which can't immediately by replicated by Sony/Microsoft giving AMD or Intel a call.

The competitor there will be Nvidia - especially if they have their purchase of ARM sorted. But they'll have a hell of a job keeping up with Apple.

 

[sublunar]

People who buy a streaming box are not doing so because they want to game with it. I know a lot of people who have consoles and smart TVs who also have a streaming box (be it Roku, AppleTV, Fire, et al). They use the streaming box almost exclusively for streaming. And it's been that way for years.

That's one way for Apple to catch up - by streaming games to AppleTV.

Mobile gaming makes far more money than desktop gaming ever will. Hell it probably beats console gaming by a landslide as well. If making money is king, and we know that it is, that's where Apple will focus its efforts on.

Yes, but the most successful mobile games are Freemium. A few of the biggest names get there on this model but the tradition AAA model requires heavy investment and a big ticket upfront price. Theres a reason why the games industry was seen as rivalling Hollywood for revenue, and that can only accelerate during a pandemic.

I don't see AR/VR ever taking off in this decade. I certainly don't want a device a mere inch or two away from my eyes housed in what could be described as a watermelon strapped to your forehead. I hate wearing glasses and they are a million times less intrusive. If people could only watch movies on such a device strapped to their heads, the entertainment industry would literally tank overnight. It's not the entertainment solution people are looking for... any more than 3D TV was... it's a novelty at best.

It strongly depends if there's any kind of market to be made from this. One thing is for sure Apple want to be sure they have fully explored all the options so that pulling the trigger is relatively easy to do as they've already done all the legwork on it by the time the executive level says go.

I would personally want Apple to invest more in Metal to become a bona fide challenger for DirectX to show they are serious about taking their hardware in an games friendly direction.

 

[unsui_grep]

I didn’t read this whole thread but what I did see seems to put together a reasonable case for this beefier Apple box.
I think the timing of Apple now focusing more on services and the rumors of the upcoming mixed reality headset are what give this idea significant credence for me.
I think unless Apple sells at a big loss, it will be expensive though. With special controllers, probably a whole newly designed box unit, and powerful internals (I’m thinking it will be > M1), I could see it being $500 or more. The headset would be optional but cost a lot too.
Because of the high price, I think the regular Apple TV will continue for people who just want a streaming box.

I don’t know if the combined Apple TV / HomePod rumor plays a part here though. I’m not sure what to think of the rumor itself. It just doesn’t make much sense to me to combine the two.

Agreed.

 

[unsui_grep]

People who buy a streaming box are not doing so because they want to game with it. I know a lot of people who have consoles and smart TVs who also have a streaming box (be it Roku, AppleTV, Fire, et al). They use the streaming box almost exclusively for streaming. And it's been that way for years.

Mobile gaming makes far more money than desktop gaming ever will. Hell it probably beats console gaming by a landslide as well. If making money is king, and we know that it is, that's where Apple will focus its efforts on.

I don't see AR/VR ever taking off in this decade. I certainly don't want a device a mere inch or two away from my eyes housed in what could be described as a watermelon strapped to your forehead. I hate wearing glasses and they are a million times less intrusive. If people could only watch movies on such a device strapped to their heads, the entertainment industry would literally tank overnight. It's not the entertainment solution people are looking for... any more than 3D TV was... it's a novelty at best.

Seems like Apple might disagree with you. They're clearly investing heavily in it.

I agree with you about mobile gaming. I'm speculating about what Apple's approach might be to AAA gaming based on reports that they're interested in entering the market. I'm suggesting reasons why Apple might want to make such a move. I'm arguing that it might be tied to AR/VR plans that reach far beyond gaming. At the moment, however, Unity and Unreal are gatekeeping those industries that would benefit from realtime 3d graphics rendering engines. It makes sense to me for Apple to work with studios and developers with such expertise so they don't have to rely on their parties for content. We've seen them do this with Apple TV+.

I wouldn't count on people continuing to buy Apple priced streaming boxes for much longer. Some will, no doubt, but there's less and less reason to do so when smart TV's and dongles offer much better value. Apple should see this as a vulnerability in their ecosystem.

The good news for you is that no one will be forcing you to strap on a AR/VR headset–as far as I know. Just as I wouldn't count on people continuing to buy expensive streaming boxes just because "it's been that way for years", I wouldn't count on people, like yourself, seeing AR/VR as a gimmick. It might end up being that, but all it takes is a compelling piece of tech and a younger generation interested in experimentation and innovation to turn that tide.

I've offered a number of other reasons in this thread why Apple might be interested in developing such a console and what their take could be and how it could open up new streams of revenue. Of course, this is all just fantasy most of which won't happen, but I think I've made some reasonable arguments for why it could. At the very least it's fun to think about.

 

[unsui_grep]

I would personally want Apple to invest more in Metal to become a bona fide challenger for DirectX to show they are serious about taking their hardware in an games friendly direction.

Metal is definitely going to need a lot more work. 2020 WWDC saw some nice improvements and they recently added some nice new documentation on the developer site. It'll be interesting to see what they have for this year.

 

[unsui_grep]

I don't think Apple will be interested in following Sony and Microsoft into their games field, at best they will be a Nintendo type player - family orientated games in a less capable but still popular console mainly due to the software titles.

One thing Apple will have a lead in is developing a highly efficient computing system which could be head mounted without making a hat which doubles as a space heater. This could give Apple the lead in VR games which will naturally require expensive hardware which can't immediately by replicated by Sony/Microsoft giving AMD or Intel a call.

The competitor there will be Nvidia - especially if they have their purchase of ARM sorted. But they'll have a hell of a job keeping up with Apple.

If I had to bet, I'd say you're right on the money with the Nintendo model. I could see Apple being into Sony's narrative gaming focus with ties to TV and movies. Apple likes a good story and bet there are some Apple execs really into those Naughty Dog games.

 

[darthbane2k]

There are so many better options for gaming such as PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X/S and Switch. Why would anyone buy an Apple TV specifically for gaming? For crossey road??!
The only thing I played on my Apple TV was Pacman (the 3D one) and video poker. I wouldn't pay a premium for a gaming centric Apple TV - that money could go on a Playstation which comes with the controller Apple will insist I buy separately just to work with their streaming box.

My suggestion to those who have an ATV is to just download SteamLink and chuck on retro arc via Steam on your Mac/pc -- happy days.

 

[diamond.g]

I know it isn’t done, but Star Citizen would be a cool win to have on an Apple console. Especially with VR support. Or Elite Dangerous, maybe I know that game is on the other consoles as well, but maybe a VR version would be worth visiting.
System Shock is getting remade using UE4, that would be cool to get a AppleTV version, though that would imply the AppleTV needs to have (should have) feature parity with the current gen consoles. If Apple really wanted to drop dough and get a ”system seller” pay Rockstar all the money and get GTA 6 as a multi-year exclusive to the AppleTV.

 

[George Dawes]

I’d love to see marvel strike force on the apple tv , great game with impressive graphics

 

[unsui_grep]

There are so many better options for gaming such as PS4, PS5, Xbox Series X/S and Switch. Why would anyone buy an Apple TV specifically for gaming? For crossey road??!
The only thing I played on my Apple TV was Pacman (the 3D one) and video poker. I wouldn't pay a premium for a gaming centric Apple TV - that money could go on a Playstation which comes with the controller Apple will insist I buy separately just to work with their streaming box.

My suggestion to those who have an ATV is to just download SteamLink and chuck on retro arc via Steam on your Mac/pc -- happy days.

Guess you haven't read the thread.

 

[subjonas]

I don't think Apple will be interested in following Sony and Microsoft into their games field, at best they will be a Nintendo type player - family orientated games in a less capable but still popular console mainly due to the software titles.

One thing Apple will have a lead in is developing a highly efficient computing system which could be head mounted without making a hat which doubles as a space heater. This could give Apple the lead in VR games which will naturally require expensive hardware which can't immediately by replicated by Sony/Microsoft giving AMD or Intel a call.

The competitor there will be Nvidia - especially if they have their purchase of ARM sorted. But they'll have a hell of a job keeping up with Apple.

I think Apple is kind of already a Nintendo type player with Apple Arcade and the current box and third party controllers. Not sure what they would need to make more headway though, maybe just better titles.

Not sure what the current rumors are, but I’m leaning toward thinking their mixed reality headset won’t be completely standalone, as in it will be wireless but may require a base device (a beefier Apple TV box or a Mac or an M iPad) to do the heavy processing. Because I don’t see people wanting to go outside with a headset on anyway (glasses yes, headset not likely). And it would allow the headset to be smaller and lighter. I don’t know if they can get lagless wireless 8k-16k display on the headset though. If not, then it would have to be standalone.

 

[sublunar]

I think Apple is kind of already a Nintendo type player with Apple Arcade and the current box and third party controllers. Not sure what they would need to make more headway though, maybe just better titles.

Not sure what the current rumors are, but I’m leaning toward thinking their mixed reality headset won’t be completely standalone, as in it will be wireless but may require a base device (a beefier Apple TV box or a Mac or an M iPad) to do the heavy processing. Because I don’t see people wanting to go outside with a headset on anyway (glasses yes, headset not likely). And it would allow the headset to be smaller and lighter. I don’t know if they can get lagless wireless 8k-16k display on the headset though. If not, then it would have to be standalone.

They might be there with the hardware but they don't have the kind of IP that draws people to the Nintendo brand - Super Mario/Kart, Zelda, Starfox, etc.

Yes, better titles will help but despite having a £5 monthly fee there's no compelling 'must-have' title that draws people from outside of the iOS gaming community to the service.

As for any VR headset, don't forget that Apple have been building heavily on AR - iPads with the capability already exist and for a while the AR genre was in the news with games like Pokemon Go which could be played on a phone.

AR glasses for notifications etc are probably more Apple's style than processing games software which they have track record in at the moment.

I've already said elsewhere that they need to get a track record in supporting and developing their Metal software going forward. What would also be nice is if they developed their own version of the Unreal Engine mainly to drive development of their own Stagecraft competitor for AppleTV+ productions. Side effects could then include the use of this technology in games development.

 

[diamond.g]

They might be there with the hardware but they don't have the kind of IP that draws people to the Nintendo brand - Super Mario/Kart, Zelda, Starfox, etc.

Yes, better titles will help but despite having a £5 monthly fee there's no compelling 'must-have' title that draws people from outside of the iOS gaming community to the service.

As for any VR headset, don't forget that Apple have been building heavily on AR - iPads with the capability already exist and for a while the AR genre was in the news with games like Pokemon Go which could be played on a phone.

AR glasses for notifications etc are probably more Apple's style than processing games software which they have track record in at the moment.

I've already said elsewhere that they need to get a track record in supporting and developing their Metal software going forward. What would also be nice is if they developed their own version of the Unreal Engine mainly to drive development of their own Stagecraft competitor for AppleTV+ productions. Side effects could then include the use of this technology in games development.

Instead of making their own engine, maybe buying Unity Technologies would be better?

 

[unsui_grep]

Instead of making their own engine, maybe buying Unity Technologies would be better?

This something I wondered about as well. Might be too much baggage for Apple to outright purchase, although a ton of iOS games run on Unity. I think they have to develop something sort of realtime 3D rendering engine for AR/VR. They can't rely on a third party for content creation for such an important product. That said, it's a HUGE undertaking to develop a game engine. They would, of course, want it to be Swift based but probably some sort of visual scripting system as well for some no-code creators. Maybe, form a partnership and bring Swift support to Unity. Easier said than done I'm sure. I'm not sure how well C# and Swift would play together, if at all. I would think it would be easier with a C++ based engine like Unreal, which would be 🤯, but very clearly not going to happen.

What might be more likely and could actually be happening right now, is a partnership between Apple and a game studio(s) to further develop Metal and other APIs for a gaming orientated Apple TV. We've heard that they are working with studios and supposedly even delivering hardware prototypes. Could be just the new Apple controller but maybe. I'd love a Swift based game engine, maybe this could pave the way for something more substantial than Reality Composer.

 

[diamond.g]

This something I wondered about as well. Might be too much baggage for Apple to outright purchase, although a ton of iOS games run on Unity. I think they have to develop something sort of realtime 3D rendering engine for AR/VR. They can't rely on a third party for content creation for such an important product. That said, it's a HUGE undertaking to develop a game engine. They would, of course, want it to be Swift based but probably some sort of visual scripting system as well for some no-code creators. Maybe, form a partnership and bring Swift support to Unity. Easier said than done I'm sure. I'm not sure how well C# and Swift would play together, if at all. I would think it would be easier with a C++ based engine like Unreal, which would be 🤯, but very clearly not going to happen.

What might be more likely and could actually be happening right now, is a partnership between Apple and a game studio(s) to further develop Metal and other APIs for a gaming orientated Apple TV. We've heard that they are working with studios and supposedly even delivering hardware prototypes. Could be just the new Apple controller but maybe. I'd love a Swift based game engine, maybe this could pave the way for something more substantial than Reality Composer.

I wonder how their attempt would compare to nanite/lumen.

 

[unsui_grep]

I wonder how their attempt would compare to nanite/lumen.

Woof. Apple would definitely have to have some next level sorcery up their sleeve to even compare with nanite/lumen. I think Epic has a huge number of developers focused on every detail of that engine. I think the best we could hope for (and maybe this is an advantage) is for Apple to work with game studios to develop APIs and tools specifically tuned for Apple hardware. I watched a couple of videos from 2020 WWDC and read a few articles on Apple silicon's Tile Based Deferred Rendering (TBDR) architecture. I certainly don't have a full grasp of it, but it sounds interesting. I believe it boils down the being more efficient, a consequence of being originally developed for lower power A series SOCs, I guess. Maybe someone following this thread has deeper knowledge than me. Anyway, this sounds like the approach they're taking in their discrete GPU development.

 

[diamond.g]

@leman and I have talked about Lumen/Nanite. The long and short of it (of course pending any litigation, lol) is UE5 should work just fine on Apple hardware. Will it look like the presentation (that was running on PS5)? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know yet. The first game to use it, as far as I know, will be Fortnite later this summer.

 

[leman]

@leman and I have talked about Lumen/Nanite. The long and short of it (of course pending any litigation, lol) is UE5 should work just fine on Apple hardware. Will it look like the presentation (that was running on PS5)? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know yet. The first game to use it, as far as I know, will be Fortnite later this summer.

Woof. Apple would definitely have to have some next level sorcery up their sleeve to even compare with nanite/lumen.

From what I read about nanite/lumen, it simply boils down to whether Epic is interested in implementing these features on Apple Silicon. Frankly, they should work really well on Apple hardware. 'Lumen" sounds like a real-time deferred lightning solution and Apple's TBDR with it's programmable persistent on-chip memory excels at these kind of effects (that's the presentation @unsui_grep was mentioning). "Nanite" seems to be about dynamic mesh optimization, which again is something that will fly on Apple Silicon with UMA - no need for expensive CPU/GPU data synchronization.

 

[unsui_grep]

@leman and I have talked about Lumen/Nanite. The long and short of it (of course pending any litigation, lol) is UE5 should work just fine on Apple hardware. Will it look like the presentation (that was running on PS5)? Maybe, maybe not. We don't know yet. The first game to use it, as far as I know, will be Fortnite later this summer.

Yeah, I think they stated UE5 will support Apple Silicon. I might be remembering that wrong they might have meant just macOS.

I've been thinking a lot more about other ways that Apple could differentiate their console, besides serving as a VR/AR hub, and I'm kind of smitten with the idea of it having mesh networking and hi-fi sound functionality. That iOS 14.6 beta hint of hi-fi streaming coming to future AirPods, of course, got me wanting that with an Apple TV/Home Pod setup. I'd expect it to include a U series chip and support Thread networking as well, but then I heard about a leak that referenced eArc possible coming to the Apple TV on the latest Stacktrace podcast. Here's the article link from the show notes:

The New 2021 Apple TV 4K (2nd gen) adds eARC support for the discontinued HomePod - The Tape Drive

Code found in tvOS 14.5 RC indicates that Apple is working on eARC and ARC support for the newly announced 2021 Apple TV 4K (second gen). The feature is labeled as being in beta in tvOS 14.5 RC and tvOS 14.6 beta 1.

thetapedrive.com

They had a good conversation about what that might mean (great podcast if you're not familiar) and a lot of that centered around Mark Gurman's leak about a future AppleTV/Home Pod hybrid, which I'm not wild about. Basically, the advantage of eArc is that it reduces latency between the tv and speakers but also makes it possible to pipe the audio from a PS5 etc. through future pods. Gurman also as thrown out some rumors that future HomePods might have a screen and camera for video conferencing. He also takes about it having a robotic arm that would be used with the camera to follow the user around the room. Lol. That last bit sounds crazy to be but who knows? Gurman is pretty reliable.

What I could see or would like to see is the Apple TV evolve into a sleek home hub for gaming, hi-fi audio/video, with integrated mesh networking. I can imagine creating a whole fleet of accessory products like pod devices, maybe some with screens and cameras. Bringing FaceTime to the big screen would be a hit but I think there's a lot more apps I can see brought over if they set up tvOS as a proper development platform. And maybe change it's name to reflect it's more expansive functionality. homeOS, maybe? I really think such a versatile product would give Apple the time it will need to develop a more expansive catalog of AAA games. No doubt all this would come at hefty price (probably a bit higher than a PS5) but it seems like they have all the pieces spread throughout their product line, they just need to put it in a box so I can put it beneath my tv. 😁

 

[unsui_grep]

From what I read about nanite/lumen, it simply boils down to whether Epic is interested in implementing these features on Apple Silicon. Frankly, they should work really well on Apple hardware. 'Lumen" sounds like a real-time deferred lightning solution and Apple's TBDR with it's programmable persistent on-chip memory excels at these kind of effects (that's the presentation @unsui_grep was mentioning). "Nanite" seems to be about dynamic mesh optimization, which again is something that will fly on Apple Silicon with UMA - no need for expensive CPU/GPU data synchronization.

I'm still learning about all this and have only just gotten into learning Metal development, but I remember during the the UE5 demo thinking that the tech behind Lumen sounded a lot like the TBDR approach to rendering. Actually, I'm not sure which video I saw first but my impression still stands. I'd love to learn more about this, if you have any suggestions please send them my way. Thanks.

 

[leman]

I'm still learning about all this and have only just gotten into learning Metal development, but I remember during the the UE5 demo thinking that the tech behind Lumen sounded a lot like the TBDR approach to rendering. Actually, I'm not sure which video I saw first but my impression still stands. I'd love to learn more about this, if you have any suggestions please send them my way. Thanks.

The WWDC presentations and demos are a great start. Unfortunately, the documentation is rather bare-bones and third-party tutorials are severely lacking, especially when it comes to the more advanced stuff. One has to experiment a lot.

 

[diamond.g]

From what I read about nanite/lumen, it simply boils down to whether Epic is interested in implementing these features on Apple Silicon. Frankly, they should work really well on Apple hardware. 'Lumen" sounds like a real-time deferred lightning solution and Apple's TBDR with it's programmable persistent on-chip memory excels at these kind of effects (that's the presentation @unsui_grep was mentioning). "Nanite" seems to be about dynamic mesh optimization, which again is something that will fly on Apple Silicon with UMA - no need for expensive CPU/GPU data synchronization.

Though, how does Apple deal with the idea of 1 triangle per pixel (micropolygons)?

Like this level of polys seems extreme, but then again it gets you out of having to have detailed texture maps, right?