Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
First of all, let's try not to use an "Apple would never...". I think we all know how unpredictable Apple can be. No matter what Apple releases next, somebody, somewhere on these boards, predicted it. Apple could release the Mac OS X powered VW Beetle with a built-in, OS-X run computer that monitors your car, and runs all it's systems, has built-in wifi, bluetooth, and a touch-screen interface suitable for driving, and somebody would say "I totally saw that coming!" and provide a link to the appropriate forum.

Second of all, I was very unpopular when I booed the eMac when it first came out. I said it would kill iMac sales, and it did. It IS good to have an eMac type computer on the low end, but when a person can buy an eMac for $500 less than a comparable iMac, then "style" isn't that important. If the difference were $200, iMacs would sell better, but a person can eather have an eMac and a 20 gig iPod (or about a year's worth of .Mac, iLife and OS X updates), or just an iMac, the choice is simple (for most). There just isn't a market for the iMac (or, more accurately, the iMacs market is being taken by the eMac). Especially people coming from the generally "design clueless" world of wintel, style and cool is just not worth $500.

Third, we can sit around all day and theorize about why Apple isn't selling the numbers other companies are, but the fact isn't nessessarily the hardware, it's the software. People use Windows at work and something new frightens them. I think that a smart move would be to make a deal with Microsoft that would have the option to include Virtual PC with a new Mac (offer it pre-installed). Consumers would see that they can use Windows if they get "scared" and go back to Mac when they're feeling "brave". Sometimes it's better to "ease" somebody onto something rather than forcing a sudden change. Even the military realizes this (they encourage people to socialize and work out with other applicants for months before they goto boot camp). Plus, the addition of being able to use their old apps would be appealing. Apple would be happy because it would sell them more machines (they are still a hardware business, right? =P), Microsoft would be happy because they would have this whole "new" market. This wouldn't cut OS X out entirely, but rather provide a crutch for new users to stand on.

Fourth, simply lowering the price wouldn't do anything for Apple. Apple could lower the price of a duel G5 to $1499, but people still wouldn't buy. Lowering the price is like trying to pump blood into a patient who still has a bleeding wound. This is basically the same as what the US politicans are doing, trying to encourage Job growth without finding out what the root problem is and fixing it. Eventually it will become a diminishing return and Apple would go out of business because they are selling things cheaper than what they cost.

Sorry for the long squeege of a post. I hope this all still makes sense when I re-read it tommorrow morning!
Anyway... here's hoping for the ability to connect an iSight camera up to an iPod to record movies! =)

BTW - Letting iSight users record with iMoive was a smart move, but still locking out non-Apple superdrives from iDVD was not.
 
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Face it Apple screwed up by not making Emac the Imac and then removing colors, its amazing how this company keeps going when you look at the history of screw up after screw up. Current Imac and Emac are another example. Didnt Steve say crts are dead? wasnt Emac only for education? and so is the G5 fiasco about power supplies and ibook motherboards. I swear i still think they have a bunch of clowns running this company and then picking straws at what they will do next:confused:

My you're feeling a little vitriolic today. I actually think selling to eMac to the consumer market was a smart move considering people were asking for it. The eMac is a great consumer machine for the low end, and while I agree that it confuses the market a little between iMac and eMac it works. And yes Jobs did say that the 'CRT was dead' but I'm glad he was able to eat those words.
Apple needs to improve its quality that's true, but the iBook problem and the G5 PSU affect how many people, around 1%. I've seen two DOA Dells last week, so I'm really not impressed on that front either.
Apple needs to do better, yes, but I think they're doing a generally good job. Hopefully those 'clowns' are really working on shoving the G5 into everything they can so they can go 64-bit fully before MS and simplify their OS development. If the new IBM chips are as efficient as reported even a sloughed down version could work in the iBook (at 1.0Ghz maybe). Now that would kick ass.
 
Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
Face it Apple screwed up by not making Emac the Imac and then removing colors, its amazing how this company keeps going when you look at the history of screw up after screw up. Current Imac and Emac are another example. Didnt Steve say crts are dead? wasnt Emac only for education? and so is the G5 fiasco about power supplies and ibook motherboards. I swear i still think they have a bunch of clowns running this company and then picking straws at what they will do next:confused:
That's an interesting revisionist view of the history.
Apple released the iMac LCD before the eMac. The eMac was released after the 15" LCD iMac. It was initially only for the edu market as a low cost replacement for the 15 CRT iMac.
LCD iMac january 2002
eMac for EDU April 2002
eMac for everyone July 2002

SJ did say the CRT was dead, but prices haven't dropped as fast as hoped. I think Apple over-estimated the ability and willingness of all its customers to pay 'Lexus' prices for the coolest tech. Some people still want Macs even though they don't have lots of $$$. CRTs will be essentially dead, the transition just isn't complete yet. BTW.. Apple makes one machine with a CRT vs. 3 models of LCD monitors the iMac and the portables. They are, in fact, pretty much close to killing off the CRT.

It's also interesting that you blame the the "bunch of clowns" who make strategic business decisions for things like manufacturing problems with the iBook and that "G5 fiasco about power supplies". Now I'm not saying these problems don't exist, but I manage a support desk for a division with about 800 Macs in it and I've yet to see a truely faulty G5 powersupply.. and I think I've run across 1 bad ibook motherboard, which was repaired in a few days under warranty. Now, didn't that "G5 fiasco" really boil down to some chirping related to some powersupplies? Would Dell offer to replace custom Power Supplies if they ocassionally chirped?

Apple's problems, IMHO, are that they aren't keeping a close enough eye on the people who actually construct their components. This doesn't mean that Steve Jobs should be in TaiPai (or where ever) looking over the production lines, but Apple management needs to implement the changes that will ensure tighter quality control if they want to keep their reputation as the Mercedes of the personal computer market.

There are two things that really amuse me about back seat Apple Execs...
First: Everything is in the Execs control. Apple is in control of component pricing, production runs of components in other countries, processor speed and availability... It's Apple's fault that they didn't have 500,000 .09 micron G5s in stock in December so they could move the entire line the G5 processor (aka. PPC 970) already.
Second: Apple's management is retarded because they aren't doing exactly what I want. This can also be described as 'I want a blue eMac so Apple should ignore the enormous issues it had managing stock of multiple color iMacs and they should jump back into multiple colored eMacs.'

There are a lot of things that I'd like to see happen. I wouldn't even mind a few eMac colors, but I realize that there are reasons why this may not be the best solution for Apple. Don't think that Apple doesn't regularly weigh the benefits of shaking up the eMac line with the problems of managing the stock of resellers if they go back to multiple colors.
 
I think colors should only be made availabe via the Apple store as special order. Mac users like to think that they're different and that would be extra money in Apple's pocket over its resellers. I think also that the iPod mini will be limited to 2 colors real soon, silver and whatever the popular color of the moment is (it seems pink is the rage). Apple won't want to discount the bronze and green ones just because they aren't selling.

As I stated, Apple must focus on the prosumer and up. The weekend warrior types can't always afford a 3k computer. Either make the iMac expandable or cut its head off and make it cheaper...

Another solution is to re-introduce the cube but advertise it as clusterable. You might only have the finances to afford one at the moment but next year when you want to upgrade you could just buy another cube (buying from the Apple store you could substract the components you don't need such as a 2nd graphics card and save a few bucks), daisy chain the two and have essentially a dual processor mac.
 
Originally posted by JasonElise1983


That would be a reasonable, ass kicking line of computers. It would kill the world of PC's and start the trend of total mac domination.

And then you suddenly wake up. Reality check time: 97+/-% of the market is owned by Microsoft. That will NOT change anytime soon. Users aren't going to throw out perfectly good hardware to get a Mac. They may consider going Linux before they go Mac. So at the end of the day, and when Linux gets their GUI in a state that isn't a mess, Linux may save the world from MS. As for Apple,
They will never overtake wintel unless Gates and Ballmer gets drunk over at Jobs's house and sells Microsoft to Jobs for 10 bucks.

My guess? PowerMac speedbumps. That's it. WWDC is fast approaching. Any major new hardware is going to be held back for that. Speed bumps are one thing, but major new releases? Jobs ego won't allow anything other then a major event where HE is the center of attention. Where he can debut his new hardware.
 
I bought my iMac a little over a year ago and I love it. After using it I just cannot see myself ever buying another standard boring box like the Powermac- even if they did upgrade it slightly to a shiny silver with a handle and a half dozen leafblowers inside. However I just can't see myself upgrading till they at least come out with a G5 version iMac if not a total new look (G5 Cube anyone?). I would think adding the G5 to the iMac would be a piece of cake compared to getting it into a Powerbook- no worries about power consumption or cooling. Also with more of a performance gap between the iMac and the eMac it would really add an incentive to get the iMac.

I really do need a laptop next though so I hope they figure out how to shoehorn a G5 into a Powerbook sometime this year
 
Originally posted by Evan_11
I agree that most people still see polka dots when you mention iMac. Hell most people think the eMac is the iMac without the spots (which in reality it is). The current model has a severe identity crises. I think they are heading in the right direction by putting a 20" screen on it but for god sakes it needs a G5 and easier expandibility. For $2200 you should be getting a true prosumer machine not a consumer machine on steroids.

That's it in a nut shell... hopefully we will be suprised this year with a new incarnation
 
Originally posted by Evan_11
I think colors should only be made availabe via the Apple store as special order. Mac users like to think that they're different and that would be extra money in Apple's pocket over its resellers. I think also that the iPod mini will be limited to 2 colors real soon, silver and whatever the popular color of the moment is (it seems pink is the rage). Apple won't want to discount the bronze and green ones just because they aren't selling.

As I stated, Apple must focus on the prosumer and up. The weekend warrior types can't always afford a 3k computer. Either make the iMac expandable or cut its head off and make it cheaper...

Another solution is to re-introduce the cube but advertise it as clusterable. You might only have the finances to afford one at the moment but next year when you want to upgrade you could just buy another cube (buying from the Apple store you could substract the components you don't need such as a 2nd graphics card and save a few bucks), daisy chain the two and have essentially a dual processor mac.

Sorry, I can;t get behind any of these ideas.

Apple has long pissed off its reseller channel. Selling colored units only at their store would further piss off their anemic base of resellers.

A device on sale for about 48 hours and you already have the color choice reduced by 3. Reports here state silver is the worst seller so far. Could be because they shipped more silver than any other color.

Clusterable? Do you really think this would be a mass market idea? Many people have trouble installing a simple home network, let alone a cluster of computers. I just don't see this as ever happening.
 
Originally posted by rdowns
\Clusterable? Do you really think this would be a mass market idea? Many people have trouble installing a simple home network, let alone a cluster of computers. I just don't see this as ever happening.

Why not?
Two things:
One: "Many" does not exemplify 90% of the Mac market. I think there would be a great deal of Mac users interested in this sort of thing.
Two: Apple would never release something like this without making it "plug-and-play". There would be some easy, one-step way to get this done if it were to be released.

I think it's a cool idea, but the cost of making such a machine would be very high (basically making external versions of all the components).
 
Originally posted by cheekyspanky
Maybe Apple should offer a cheaper branch as well to get the customers in who'd then upgrade to a proper Apple when they next upgrade?

Or partner with someone for consumer macs.
 
imac just sucks........

I need a G5 Power Mac!! I have owned three imacs over the past 3-4 years from G3500Mhz-G41.25 Ghz and enough is enough. Always just enough power for today but never enough for the very near tommorow. No upgradability. I have been stuck in a loop of buying a new imac every 15-18 months or so because they cannot keep up with my needs and desires.

The imac is simply a poor value take this example in point: I have a friend who has a three year old G4 466 that he purchased new for $1499. That three year old G4 is much faster than my newest and fastest 1.25Ghz imac. That three year old G4 has a Dual 1.33Ghz G4 upgrade that cost about $1000 so my friend spent about $2499 over the past three years and thruought that entire period has had a faster computer than any of the three imac's I have owned. Over the past 3-4 years I have spent some $3000+ on three imacs and that is calculating the money I got from selling older ones . imac is a very very poor value regardless of ones needs!!

With that said.....

I would not buy another imac even if Apple came out with a G5 imac. When Apple does come out with a G5 imac rest assured that it will still feauture a barely acceptable NON upgradeble Graphics card, No PCI slots, limited RAM expansion and a hobbled version of the G5 chip and architecture. Hobbled how? who know's but Apple will find a way just like they did with the G3 & G4 imacs of the past in relation to the Power Mac line.
 
Re: imac just sucks........

Originally posted by Little Endian


I would not buy another imac even if Apple came out with a G5 imac. When Apple does come out with a G5 imac rest assured that it will still feauture a barely acceptable NON upgradeble Graphics card, No PCI slots, limited RAM expansion and a hobbled version of the G5 chip and architecture.

Agree with you sir on that point. As much as I am gagging to up my iMac to one running on G5-juice, I am going to need more convincing on the whole components caboodle before I take anothe chunk out of my credit card limit.

However I do think that Apple needs to be ahead of the 64-bit game. So why not top range the iMacs with a G5, whilst simultaneously losing bottom end Power Mac and upgrading the top end to a nice 2.6. Then six months down the line G5 the PB and re-stretch the Power Mac line by introducing the 3.0 beast.

Price drops are for wimps.;)
 
Originally posted by SiliconAddict
My guess? PowerMac speedbumps. That's it. WWDC is fast approaching. Any major new hardware is going to be held back for that. Speed bumps are one thing, but major new releases? Jobs ego won't allow anything other then a major event where HE is the center of attention. Where he can debut his new hardware.

I agree with your logic SiliconAddict. We are now approximately three months away from WWDC on June 28th. The announcement of the Rev. B Power Mac will be a major upgrade. So I don't blame Steve Jobs at all for wanting to make the announcement personally. He would not be in that position is he didn't have an ego, that is what drives his innovative spirit.
 
Originally posted by rdowns
Clusterable? Do you really think this would be a mass market idea? Many people have trouble installing a simple home network, let alone a cluster of computers. I just don't see this as ever happening.

I think it would work - - but then again, I made the same suggestion probably 12-24 months ago. :D The reason why it would work is twofold:

- Apple's reputation for easy interfacing (TRUE plug-n-play) will make it marketplace-friendly. The appeal is that you can grow your system over time, plus that any computer on the network has the power of all.

- The consumer appeal for "Never" needs replacing, which manages total lifecycle costs (which is already an Apple strength, although a poorly marketed one).

- Just what do you think the VA Tech Cluster was? Off-the-shelf G5's. The Apple hardware upgrade was a 2GB Fibre Channel hardware upgrade (to double the Std GigaBit Ethernet used for node innerconnectivity); the rest was system cooling and software.


For example, we know that Apple could take 'System Update' and incude an automatic (background) feature that monitors the cluster performance, and when that old 2GH G5 that you bought back in 2004 isn't only adding +2% to your cluster performance, it can migrate all of its data off its physical hard drives and instruct you to unplug it.

And FYI, if you wanted to make the system extra-friendly and appear even more brilliant, it does the entire file migration during overnight downtime after it makes up its mind -- and before it even tells the User that "Its time to retire Component X".


In any event, I see that this thread isn't going anywhere particularly profound...

Yes, there are issues with iMacs ... but as much as we might say that we want a "headless iMac", the history is that we didn't buy it when it was offered to us -- the Cube. Granted, part of it was probably the price point, but we shouldn't forget that the iMac's design makes us captive LCD buyers for Apple, and that helps keep their sales volume up, which helps improve economy of scale costs for all LCD-using Apple products (such as iBooks & PB's).

Second, on performance:

a) in general, anyone who's bothered to read the Journals knows that the PC industry is in a bit of a slump right now because *Business* has found that they no longer need the absolute latest hardware for general office automation. The reality is that there are a few specialty applications that need the iron, but the emerging buyer for top-end PC's is no longer business, but the personal gamer

b) YMMV on the arguements of if this customer would be better served by a game console...I don't personally know the answer, because the "Rest of Us" reality is that we don't need a high-end system for generic Internet, Productivity, etc, applications.

Third, productivity:

Productivity is NOT Speed, at least as measured by frames/sec in Quake, or a CPU's MHz/GHz. What matters is how quickly you get your tasks done, and the workflow process includes a lot of factors, not the least of which is how quickly and efficiently the User navigates through the OS's GUI.

It would be an interesting Grad Student research topic to find how how many hours of lost productivity have been caused by Microsoft's "CLIPPY" assistant - - I swear, every time the dang thing pops up is a royal waste of my time and that makes me so ticked that I go take a coffee break.

Because overall productivity also includes time spent not working, a "rabbit" design that forces you to take frequent breaks is often slower than an enjoyable "turtle".


Fourth, on the 'Experience' (eg, BMW & Mercedes analogies):

First, gasoline in Europe often runs more than $4/gallon and yes, a lot of that is taxes ... that's why they have comparatively excellent mass transit systems.

Insofar as what car is analogous to Apple, BMW is a frequent example, but it doesn't really matter: the real point to all of this is out there in our own driveway right now: very few of us own the automotive equivalent to a $300 PC. Instead, we buy nice SUV's, or GTO's or whatever because it is what we want.

It doesn't matter if we've bought into luxury, handling, "rugged individualist", or whatever: 95% of us right now own significantly more vehicle than what is required to satisfy the requirement of "Basic Transportation".

If we can 'Enjoy the Ride' in our car but then cannot conceive of people choosing to do the same for their PC choice, we are either closed-minded, or we're deceived ourselves into believing that luxury goods are an absolute life necessity.

Finally, on "Cost", two things:

a) You get what you pay for. My last Mac was retired after 7 years of service - - and my 1705 Apple Monitor is still going strong, so its what my G5 is now using. In contrast, my PC at work is 4 years old and its ready for the trashcan, having spontaneous power loss problems (build quality), and the no-name cheapie monitor has aggrivating horizontal line streaking that also means its heading for the trashbin...it simply isn't cost-effective for me to invoke our Repair Service.

b) Recent reports state that the average household consumer debt of those that are carrying a balance is now over $13,000. Some reports now state the value at $19,000. At typical credit-card interest rates (~20%), the amount of money paid just in debt service is well over $2500. But why am I telling you this? Because it means that every household could theoretically afford to buy a new PowerMac _every_ year if they had good control over their finances and avoided credit card debt. If you can't afford a little more for a Mac, my personal recommendation is to stop complaining and to go look at your financial situation: the best financial investment you can make today is to get rid of credit card debt. IMO for most people, the cost differential for a Mac will disappear as a 'barrier' if they fix this very basic item.


-hh
 
Re: imac just sucks........

Originally posted by Little Endian
I need a G5 Power Mac!! I have owned three imacs over the past 3-4 years from G3500Mhz-G41.25 Ghz and enough is enough. Always just enough power for today but never enough for the very near tommorow. No upgradability. I have been stuck in a loop of buying a new imac every 15-18 months or so because they cannot keep up with my needs and desires. ....imac is a very very poor value regardless of ones needs!!....When Apple does come out with a G5 imac rest assured that it will still feauture a barely acceptable NON upgradeble Graphics card, No PCI slots, limited RAM expansion and a hobbled version of the G5 chip and architecture...

Ok trying to follow forum rules here and not tear you down for poor purchasing decisions. While the imac is not right for you, to say "imac is a very very poor value regardless of ones needs" is way wrong. I happen to have an imac and love it. But rather than get in to the intangible "I love it, you hate routine", I want to rebut you on some of your later points.

Regarding upgrading - I have owned three PC's, only thing I have ever upgraded was the ram and video card. I manage a 20 computer lab of macs (imacs, powermacs, powerbooks). Over the past 6 years I have never upgraded anything aside from RAM. Why? Just didn't make sense from a money stand point. I knew from the outset I would buy a new machine (either personal or for the lab) every 4 years or so. I bought the machine to do what I needed it do and then some in the near future. In other words, I didn't go the cheap route. I bought a slightly better graphics card, extra ram (if price was cheap), hard drive, processor, etc. etc. etc. Sure, paid a little more but after four years, didn't have to waste my time, efforts and new cash to hold up an old machine.

Hey, if upgrading is for you fine. I personally don't like to spend a lot of time always "upgrading" my computer. I like it to just work, allowing me to do what I do and get the job done. Maybe that means I don't buy the latest version of photoshop (I still know some who use photoshop 5). If I can get what I like to do done fast, then who needs the few extra seconds (which 10 is about the most you might get with some upgrades in terms of regular task savings) then why waste my time putting something in, updating everything, buying the new software - no thanks.

If you don't like the imac fine. But just because you made some poor buying choices does not mean it is a bad machine.
 
Originally posted by -hh
Recent reports state that the average household consumer debt of those that are carrying a balance is now over $13,000. Some reports now state the value at $19,000. At typical credit-card interest rates (~20%), the amount of money paid just in debt service is well over $2500. But why am I telling you this? Because it means that every household could theoretically afford to buy a new PowerMac _every_ year if they had good control over their finances and avoided credit card debt. If you can't afford a little more for a Mac, my personal recommendation is to stop complaining and to go look at your financial situation: the best financial investment you can make today is to get rid of credit card debt. IMO for most people, the cost differential for a Mac will disappear as a 'barrier' if they fix this very basic item.
Problem is, for many, the credit card debt is due to buying a new dual 2GHz G5 when they don't have the money, hence the debt ;) :D
 
Originally posted by wdlove
I agree with your logic SiliconAddict. We are now approximately three months away from WWDC on June 28th. The announcement of the Rev. B Power Mac will be a major upgrade. So I don't blame Steve Jobs at all for wanting to make the announcement personally. He would not be in that position is he didn't have an ego, that is what drives his innovative spirit.

I disagree. The announcement of speed bumped powermacs is minor. Those will be out in March. What is major is the G5 powerbooks and iMacs. That is my guess at what was originally meant by the poster and what will happen in the next few months.
 
Here's a wildly stupid idea... since there was no Superbowl ad... mayyybe there'll be a commercial for new crap during the Oscars...

or maybe not.
 
Originally posted by arn
I think is faulty logic.

Hardware isn't delayed by OS releases.

When a new Mac is released, it always has a newer version of Mac OS installed on it -- this extra code provides support for the new machine.

In other words, even if Mac OS X 10.3.3 came out a week before the new PowerMacs were released, I'd wager the new PowerMacs have a different version of Mac OS X 10.3.3.

arn
exactly when g5s where released panther wasnt out yet but apple installed an revamped version of jaguar with 64bit suport codenamed smeagle
 
Originally posted by Darkhorse
Here's a wildly stupid idea... since there was no Superbowl ad... mayyybe there'll be a commercial for new crap during the Oscars...

or maybe not.

I just thought the same thing when I saw an ad for the Oscars a minute ago.:p
 
Patience! Apple seems to be working through its issues one at a time -- I'm incredibly encouraged.

Sorry Arn, I disagree -- I think the 10.3.3 seeding and other software updates are very important. Apple wouldn't, or shouldn't, release a rev b G5 with all these issue still sitting out there. They seem to be addressing OS issues, now the Power Supply. There were Graphic Card issues that seem to have disappeared, as well. That leaves three issues left (maybe more I'm not aware of): getting a good supply of chips from IBM (no problem), re-releasing QuickTime 6.5 for the G5, and updating iLife (extremely important for those wanting to use iDVD). The only other things that could hold this up would be design issues -- there have been rumors of dual opticals, etc. Another rumor concerned changes in RAM -- that could seriously hold things up as they wait for new RAM to filter through the supply chain.

I've predicted March -- but I'm not so sure now that Apple will actually be able to deliver product this soon -- maybe an announcement in March with delivery within 4 weeks? The developers conference is still four months away -- they wouldn't wait that long, would they?

Anybody want to predict "today"?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.