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New 'Mac Pro' $900!
- Thread starter psymac
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I'll say it's dubious...It's not even true.... Here's the facts:
I just built a Dell Precession T7400 configured to the same specs as the basic 8 core Mac Pro that was just announced. Here's the rundown
PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5440 (2.83GHz,2X6M L2,1333)
2ND PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® Processor E5440 (2.83GHz,2X6M L2,1333)
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista Business, with Media
VIDEO CARD 256MB PCIe x16 nVidia Quadro FX570, Dual Monitor DVI Capable
MEMORY 2GB, DDR2 SDRAM FBD Memory, 667MHz, ECC (2 DIMMS)
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD and Roxio Creator Dell Ed
RAID CONFIGURATION C1 All SATA drives, Non-RAID, 1 drive total configuration
HARD DRIVE 320GB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 8MB DataBurst Cache
MONITOR No Monitor
This system is $4553...The Apple is $3048 at the Apple Store. Also note that the Mac has the 1600MHZ Front Side Bus Processors while the Dell still has the 1333MHZ ones. The Apple is Using 800MHZ memory while the Dell is still using 667MHZ...
So why do people still think the Apple is over priced?
By the way I'm not a Mac Fanboy (even though I do have a Mac) I'm typing this from my Dell Precision 690 running Vista Ultimate 64 bit.
That's ridiculous...We're talking about Apple's EULA here, not contract killings, good grief!
I won't preach too much about breaking EULA, since I doubt many of us are saints in that regard, but anyone building a hackintosh should be mature enough to admit they are are circumventing Apple's controls on the OS and breaking their EULA. They have agreed to the EULA in bad faith. It's that simple. I'm merely stating a fact.
I second Lord Blackadder...and you can't use that "contract killing" situation as a comparison. It doesn't makes sense or hold up when you are trying to apply it to this situation.
Why is it "unreliable"? Do we have numbers so we can compare?
When I compare my Macs to my Linux and Solaris systems (built using generic PC hardware) I find that while Apple is reliable the other systems are 10 times more so.
I think there are technical loopholes. One of them is that there is no EULA until the end user reads it and clicks OK. It is certainly not printed on the outside of the retail box. So if you were to install Mac OS X without using the installer. By say, simply copying the files by hand using the terminal window you would have never seen or agreed to the agreement. There would be no agreement to break.
There is also the theory that a contract that you are forced into is not binding. The software is not returnable after it is open but you can't see the contract until after you open it.
Sun had it right: They used to sell a product called "RTU". That said "Right To Use" Everyone knew up front that you were not buying a product but just an RTU. Apple and many others try and hide the RTU inside what looks to all the world like a product in a box.
All that said, these are mostly hobby projects put together by people who just want something they can't buy. It's cool to have something unique.
Whether or not that all constitutes a legally defensible loophole I'm not qualified to say, but I can tell you that it's all just another way of intentionally breaking the spirit of an agreement if not (but probably also) the letter of the agreement.
If you have to spend that much time verbally dancing around the issue it raises red flags for me...
But as you said, it's mostly a hobbyist thing - in that respect I don't have a problem with it. But people who post on here acting as if its the best computer solution out there are wrong - because it's a major hack that is probably illegal no matter how you slice it. It should not be considered a viable option as a primary use computer.
It makes for a fun project though.
Kudos to this guy for building a great system for OS X for 900 bucks. What an experience and what a machine!
I doubt he'll have many issues with hardware if he uses it a lot, it's pretty much the same as any other tower, only it doesn't have Windows there to corrupt and destroy files and directories.
Geat job, great instructions too. If he feels this tower is better than genuine hardware then more power to him. I personally will continue typing away on my PowerBook until the Intel fairy graces me with it's presence.
I doubt he'll have many issues with hardware if he uses it a lot, it's pretty much the same as any other tower, only it doesn't have Windows there to corrupt and destroy files and directories.
Geat job, great instructions too. If he feels this tower is better than genuine hardware then more power to him. I personally will continue typing away on my PowerBook until the Intel fairy graces me with it's presence.
Although I have an iMac, I decided to bite and give this a go on my PC (C2D 2.13, Asus P5B Deluxe), if anything to convince myself that a real Mac was the right choice as with all the talk and people saying they're a waste of money I'd started to wonder myself. It took a bit of reading and fiddling around to get it going (kind of like Linux), for instance I had to plug in a USB DVD drive and boot from that to get the installer running, but hey they don't call it Hackintosh for nothing.
It actually performs quite well for a PC that's over a year old now, and I should think so considering it cost £800 to build. I was pleased to note that my iMac scores better (xbench results: iMac | Hackintosh), I know the PC is over a year old but I wasn't sure how the iMac would stand up to it considering it uses some mobile components. Understandably the memory is a little bit slower, but the GPU does surprisingly well (better/close to equal) against my PC's desktop grade 7900GS and is certainly good enough for me.
So far I've yet to get any game to run. They just crash on launch. I suspect a graphics driver problem, although it's strange that it's identified correctly in System Profiler and shows that it's hardware accelerated and supports the usual bits and bobs like Quartz Extreme, and also the OpenGL test on xbench works just fine.
Everything else works. I had to find a sound driver but I think I just missed the tickbox at setup. Realtek wifi is a bit clunky, it's a hack and you have to have a very ugly icon sat in your dock making the Wifi adapter pretend to be a wired network, and create the interface manually in network preferences. But it's nice of Realtek to provide this in the first place, better than nothing. Other than games, it seems stable.
However it just doesn't feel right! It's Mac OS X, but on a PC with all the ugliness that goes with it (from the case, right down to the PC classic boot sequence of BIOS screens, boot menus, kernel screens etc all stuck together with the digital equivalent of duct tape). It's like a clone of that person of your dreams, but the clone has no soul, no passion.
YMMV. Some people love PC hardware, and hey, it's certainly good value. It has a better chance if you build it specifically *as* a Hackintosh, choosing hardware you know will work, like in the article.
It actually performs quite well for a PC that's over a year old now, and I should think so considering it cost £800 to build. I was pleased to note that my iMac scores better (xbench results: iMac | Hackintosh), I know the PC is over a year old but I wasn't sure how the iMac would stand up to it considering it uses some mobile components. Understandably the memory is a little bit slower, but the GPU does surprisingly well (better/close to equal) against my PC's desktop grade 7900GS and is certainly good enough for me.
So far I've yet to get any game to run. They just crash on launch. I suspect a graphics driver problem, although it's strange that it's identified correctly in System Profiler and shows that it's hardware accelerated and supports the usual bits and bobs like Quartz Extreme, and also the OpenGL test on xbench works just fine.
Everything else works. I had to find a sound driver but I think I just missed the tickbox at setup. Realtek wifi is a bit clunky, it's a hack and you have to have a very ugly icon sat in your dock making the Wifi adapter pretend to be a wired network, and create the interface manually in network preferences. But it's nice of Realtek to provide this in the first place, better than nothing. Other than games, it seems stable.
However it just doesn't feel right! It's Mac OS X, but on a PC with all the ugliness that goes with it (from the case, right down to the PC classic boot sequence of BIOS screens, boot menus, kernel screens etc all stuck together with the digital equivalent of duct tape). It's like a clone of that person of your dreams, but the clone has no soul, no passion.
YMMV. Some people love PC hardware, and hey, it's certainly good value. It has a better chance if you build it specifically *as* a Hackintosh, choosing hardware you know will work, like in the article.
The base line Mac pro has ONE 4 core 2.8ghz, it's not the default option on apple.com, but it is the base model. he could have easily spent 100 dollars and gone faster with his processor.
16x DVD-RW drives are less than 50 bucks. And they have light-scribe, which the Mac Pro drive lacks.
He could have spent anouther 75-100 dollars and gotten an 8800GT, which costs twice that much as a BTO from Apple, and isn't even shipping yet.
1 in 100,000 Mac Pro buyers will actually utilize 2 16x PCI-E slots. there are no PCI-E cards other than graphics cards that require more bandwidth than a single lane of PCI-E provides.
The second gigabit ethernet port on the mac pro will only be used by someone if the first one fails.
FW800 PCI-E add-on cards are 30 bucks.
The real differences between the machines are ECC RAM, more RAM capacity, and faster FSB.
Unless you're actually running a server, you don't need ECC RAM. Mac Pros only use it because Apple wanted to use Xeon processors, and the easiest mobo solutions require ECC in that case.
New mobos will be out in the wild soon with 1600fsb and support for more RAM at about a 100-150 dollar premium over this model he's using.
And to the guy wondering why an equivalent Dell Precession T7400 costs 4,000 dollars, consider that it comes with 3 years of next-day on-site technical support.
And 100% legal OS X. And iLife. Some of the extra cost goes to those significant features.
I would really love to have a fast Core Duo and cheaper video cards with regular updates. But I'm still using "real" Macs because I'd rather use OS X (unhacked) than have all the GPU/CPU options PCs have but have to run Vista, XP or hacked OS X.
Are we really going back to this type of thread again?
That the Apple mid-tower would outsell the Mac Pro does not mean that it would come at the expense of Mac Pro sales. Secondly, you agree that a mid-tower would outsell a Mac Pro. So xMac sales - Mac Pro sales > 0, which means a net increase in machine sales, which equals profit. So by applying logic to your own admission, Apple will increase sales by offering an xMac. Thank you.
Lastly, Apple already competes with Dell on Workstations, and provides a better and cheaper solution. If Apple can convince Intel to build them a special CPU for the low volume MacBook Air, don't you think Apple could do the same for a mid-tower?
I don't have any ethical issues with breaking EULAs. If some guy doesn't want to pay $2500 to have a computer capable of accepting a second hard drive, more power to 'im. If I thought I could sell people software and then have a EULA preventing them from running it under any operating system, then that would be fantastic. Maybe I'll make a industrial-strength parallel rendering app, and when people complain that it doesn't work, I'll audit them and discover that they weren't abiding by the terms of the EULA. Awesome 
And Macs are now faster, bastardized IBM PC/ATs with EFI?
Yeah, I know what you're trying to say, but there's a reason many/most of us have been using PCs or PCs in Mac clothing. The reason is that damn near all of the important consumer-level innovation has occurred on the PC.
I won't deny that I like other architectures -- I've had Alphas, MIPS, SPARCs, NeXTs, and so forth. None of them worked as well as a PC available for a fifth of the price.
The OSes are a different story, of course...
And Macs are now faster, bastardized IBM PC/ATs with EFI?
Yeah, I know what you're trying to say, but there's a reason many/most of us have been using PCs or PCs in Mac clothing. The reason is that damn near all of the important consumer-level innovation has occurred on the PC.
I won't deny that I like other architectures -- I've had Alphas, MIPS, SPARCs, NeXTs, and so forth. None of them worked as well as a PC available for a fifth of the price.
The OSes are a different story, of course...
When you build anything yourself, typically material cost will be lower than purchasing retail, BUT if you consider the time required, then it typically costs MORE than retail. Conclusion: the person has no job, thus he accounts $0 per hour for his time.
In addition, it will not be quiet like a real Mac Pro.
In addition, it will not be quiet like a real Mac Pro.
doesn't that in itself seem like a large issue? Apple buys their components from the same manufacturers that dell does. There is no reason why they can't compete. I'm willing to pay a couple hundred extra for OSX but that's it. Not 3x the price (yes i know a mac pro is more powerful but not by enough to justify a forced $3000 pricetag if i want a tower)
honestly, it doesn't take more than a couple hours to put it together if you know what your doing.
Also..even people who work full-time have weekends
How much time to research the whole process? How much time to research the parts required? How much time to decide which parts you want? How much time to buy each component? How much time to put it together? How much time to bootleg OS X and modify it to make it work? How much time to troubleshoot?
how much time out of your day do you devote to perusing macrumors?
there are numerous forums like macrumors for pc that will help you pick good components..but honestly all you really need to do is look around newegg and go by the user ratings..usually works out fine. I built a pc a couple months ago for about $1100 including OS.
~200 Intel E7650 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115029
~125 mobo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131187
~140 micro-atx case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133035
~60 antec 500 watt http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371007
~80 320 hd http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136074
~35 dvd burner http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151153
~250 geforce 8800GT http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130318
~55 2 gig ram http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227198 or ~44 http://shop4.outpost.com/product/5398158
~116 Vista home premium http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116202
TOTAL = $1061
took maybe an hour to pick the parts. I could build 3 of these for 1 mac pro. This was copied from an old post elsewhere. Parts are even cheaper now since when I put this together..so prob well under 1000 for this. Excellent deal.
and yes..i have a macbook pro kthnx
you sure can downgrade to tiger, you have to reformat though. exactly as you would with any other os
unless you know some magical way to turn vista into xp?
These comparisons remind me the hicks on Chevy boards that go over to Ferrarichat and Lambopower and try to convert owners of Lambos and Ferrari's that there Corvettes are cheaper and more powerful.
Who cares that you built a Hackintosh for $900 - no body. It's not a Mac, and it will never be. It will also never run as good as it would on native mac hardware. I've installed OSX_X86 (both recent realeses) on two Dells that were claimed to be perfect installs of OSX X86 and they both suck. Mouse glitches, no sound, laggy, and it only runs on 1 core half of the time.
If you have to bitch about the price of an Apple computer, then it's not for you. You pay a premium for a premium brand - simple. A true professional buys the hardware he or she needs to stay productive - not to save $500.
Who cares that you built a Hackintosh for $900 - no body. It's not a Mac, and it will never be. It will also never run as good as it would on native mac hardware. I've installed OSX_X86 (both recent realeses) on two Dells that were claimed to be perfect installs of OSX X86 and they both suck. Mouse glitches, no sound, laggy, and it only runs on 1 core half of the time.
If you have to bitch about the price of an Apple computer, then it's not for you. You pay a premium for a premium brand - simple. A true professional buys the hardware he or she needs to stay productive - not to save $500.
And i personally enjoy messing with electronics.
How much time have I spent with my dog at the dog park? I wasn't getting paid then, but I'm not complaining about it. You people who act like time=money is a real equation that applies in all situations need to consider another equation that IS true in all situations...money≠everything.
I enjoyed building the last PC I put together from scratch. It was fun and satisfying. Ever built a model plane and then taken it out somewhere and let it fly? That's a satisfying experience...you build something and it works.
It may not be worth any money, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth time. I make money at work. The rest of the time, I'm basically spending that money. I might as well be enjoying myself.
If you don't enjoy building something and making it work, then good for you, but bugger off and quit telling people they're wasting time and therefore money.
Some people enjoy haggling with a car salesman to get a better deal. They like to research different cars before they pick one. I guess you time=money folks just go into the showroom and hand them whatever amount of money they ask for for whichever model they recommend?
The truth is, 90% of the people who will buy a mac pro this year would have 99.5% the same computing experience with a 4 core machine as they will with their 8 core machine. They would have the same experience with standard, non-ECC RAM. They would have the same experience without 4 or 6 open RAM slots waiting to be filled. They would have the same experience without a 1100 watt power supply and two gigabit ethernet ports.
They would not, however, have the same experience with a mobile processor and motherboard attached to a low-end graphics card, a mediocre, difficult-to-replace hard drive and a poor, built-in monitor (the new imac).
This guy built the machine that apple refuses to make. It cost him 600 bucks, and would cost a lazy shopper less than 1000. Apple could add 500 bucks to that price and sell them to people like me.
I'm seriously considering buying another Mac Pro. I am also seriously considering building a HackAlmostPro because I don't need 8 cores or 32gb of RAM. I will never buy an imac. Not as long as the screen is attached.
I also won't be selling the machine later regardless. I will keep it until it is so old that all this mess about resale value won't be valid anymore.
The "buy it now" ebay price for a G3 blue Power Mac with Tiger installed is 50 dollars. I've still got one of those in my house, and it still sorta works (it's sooooo slow with Leopard), but I would sell it if it retained its value like everyone claims Macs do. I guess if you're selling 1-2 year old Macs, yes, they retain their value...but why would you spend 3000 dollars on a machine just to turn around and sell it 1 year later when there has only been one small refresh to the product line in that amount of time?
Also on ebay right now about to be won for 775 dollars:
A dual 2.5ghz G5 with 160gb HD, 6.5gm of RAM and the 9600 XT
That's only 3.5 years old and top-of-the-line at the time. 3000 dollars+upgrades...6gb of RAM wasn't cheap 3 years ago.
Considering that the case itself is worth over 100 dollars, that's a pretty steep decline in value, I'd say. In fact that particular auction is a good deal at that price. If it weren't a PPC, with AGP graphics and the now-abandoned PCI-X, I'd consider that instead of a new mac pro...
How much time have I spent with my dog at the dog park? I wasn't getting paid then, but I'm not complaining about it. You people who act like time=money is a real equation that applies in all situations need to consider another equation that IS true in all situations...money≠everything.
I enjoyed building the last PC I put together from scratch. It was fun and satisfying. Ever built a model plane and then taken it out somewhere and let it fly? That's a satisfying experience...you build something and it works.
It may not be worth any money, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth time. I make money at work. The rest of the time, I'm basically spending that money. I might as well be enjoying myself.
If you don't enjoy building something and making it work, then good for you, but bugger off and quit telling people they're wasting time and therefore money.
Some people enjoy haggling with a car salesman to get a better deal. They like to research different cars before they pick one. I guess you time=money folks just go into the showroom and hand them whatever amount of money they ask for for whichever model they recommend?
The truth is, 90% of the people who will buy a mac pro this year would have 99.5% the same computing experience with a 4 core machine as they will with their 8 core machine. They would have the same experience with standard, non-ECC RAM. They would have the same experience without 4 or 6 open RAM slots waiting to be filled. They would have the same experience without a 1100 watt power supply and two gigabit ethernet ports.
They would not, however, have the same experience with a mobile processor and motherboard attached to a low-end graphics card, a mediocre, difficult-to-replace hard drive and a poor, built-in monitor (the new imac).
This guy built the machine that apple refuses to make. It cost him 600 bucks, and would cost a lazy shopper less than 1000. Apple could add 500 bucks to that price and sell them to people like me.
I'm seriously considering buying another Mac Pro. I am also seriously considering building a HackAlmostPro because I don't need 8 cores or 32gb of RAM. I will never buy an imac. Not as long as the screen is attached.
I also won't be selling the machine later regardless. I will keep it until it is so old that all this mess about resale value won't be valid anymore.
The "buy it now" ebay price for a G3 blue Power Mac with Tiger installed is 50 dollars. I've still got one of those in my house, and it still sorta works (it's sooooo slow with Leopard), but I would sell it if it retained its value like everyone claims Macs do. I guess if you're selling 1-2 year old Macs, yes, they retain their value...but why would you spend 3000 dollars on a machine just to turn around and sell it 1 year later when there has only been one small refresh to the product line in that amount of time?
Also on ebay right now about to be won for 775 dollars:
A dual 2.5ghz G5 with 160gb HD, 6.5gm of RAM and the 9600 XT
That's only 3.5 years old and top-of-the-line at the time. 3000 dollars+upgrades...6gb of RAM wasn't cheap 3 years ago.
Considering that the case itself is worth over 100 dollars, that's a pretty steep decline in value, I'd say. In fact that particular auction is a good deal at that price. If it weren't a PPC, with AGP graphics and the now-abandoned PCI-X, I'd consider that instead of a new mac pro...
A true professional would never buy a Lamborghini automobile. They also wouldn't confuse the very different words "there" and their."
The real truth is that all of the bits and pieces in a "real" mac are the same that you can find anywhere else, with the exception of the cosmetic bits and pieces. To be honest, my mac pro is a box under my desk. It's sitting next to a super-ugly UPS, but I don't get on the APC fan forums and complain about how ugly the case is and how their power supply must be about to break because it isn't pretty.
I had a hard drive fail in one of the PCs I built, but I had salvaged that hard drive from my first PC, which was from the late 90s. It failed last year, so I guess that's 1 hardware failure every 10 years. I had ample warning that it was giving up, too (clicking, slowing down, whirling sounds). My only problems with self-built machines have been OS problems that exist in mass market machines as well. If I built a machine without the software issues, I'd have no issues at all.
You sure? According to this thread, its sounding like it might be a problem
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/416927/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/416927/
Being an anal-grammar-nazi and nit picking someone else's post doesn't give your view/opinion any more validity than his does buddy.