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If it doesn’t thermally implore, it could be good.

I don’t see them doing that though. They promised updates and none came to fruition.

But the Trash Can Pro with consumer CPU/RAM options in the $1,500 - 2,500 price range depending on options would actually be an interesting option.

Just needs the Thunderbolt 2 to be ugpraded to 3. Replace the 2nd GPU slot with SSD tray and you've gota a decent Mac Desktop
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He's right about the filtration, although I haven't paid attention to what other oems do these days. In the G5 / silver mac pro days, these things did build up a lot of dust on the inside. To be clear, that didn't keep me or others from buying them.

I don't agree with him on everything. Apple hasn't done much with NVidia in several years to the point where CUDA support on OSX likely isn't a high priority. Most of that has gone to Linux. Linus is also silly for suggesting that this would have allowed the use of a gpu with comparable performance to fpga technology, at least without providing a direct comparison.

I hvae no problems buying a machine that gets dusty inside, as long as it's fairly easy to open up and clean. Dusty and dirty build up in high traffic areas is a massive problem. If I can get inside the computer with a can of air for 30 seconds and redeploy, it's usually enough.
 
But the Trash Can Pro with consumer CPU/RAM options in the $1,500 - 2,500 price range depending on options would actually be an interesting option.

Just needs the Thunderbolt 2 to be ugpraded to 3. Replace the 2nd GPU slot with SSD tray and you've gota a decent Mac Desktop
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If it doesn’t have horrible thermals, that sounds like a nice idea.
 
But the Trash Can Pro with consumer CPU/RAM options in the $1,500 - 2,500 price range depending on options would actually be an interesting option.

Just needs the Thunderbolt 2 to be ugpraded to 3. Replace the 2nd GPU slot with SSD tray and you've gota a decent Mac Desktop
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I hvae no problems buying a machine that gets dusty inside, as long as it's fairly easy to open up and clean. Dusty and dirty build up in high traffic areas is a massive problem. If I can get inside the computer with a can of air for 30 seconds and redeploy, it's usually enough.
They are running $2759 currently on Amazon. Still pretty steep for a six year old design.
 
If it's specs, I am willing to bet that there is already a Mac out there which needs their needs in terms of performance. I don't believe that these people are doing work that cannot already be performed in an iMac pro or even a souped-up iMac.

It’s not just performance specs. An example is There are a lot of good peripherals that can be installed directly into the chassis for better performance instead of USB for these people.

It seems pretty clear cut to me. In this context, a headless Mac which duplicates the functionality of the existing iMac lineup makes absolutely no sense.

It certainly makes no sense in Apple’s defense to not passively force people to replace their machines. They are about forcing people to buy into their rhetoric and narratives if they want to stay in the ecosystem.

The iMac (Pro) fills in some of the prosumers’ needs, but arguably it is something no one asked for.
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Yes, Apple is no longer really interested in providing a headless upgradable Mac for people of the hobbyist or "prosumer" category. If those folks don't want an all-in-one, but still want MacOS, they're either stuck with the mini or investing in their own hackintosh. It will be interesting to see if the new Mac Pro becomes successful with the up-scale crowd for which it is apparently intended. After 6 or 7 years a lot of those folks may have already migrated to high end PC's.

My feeling is this will not stick with the upscale crowd. Many studios are already heavily invested into avid / premiere PC workstations. I don’t see them switching back to Mac workstations unless they get a tax write off, and/or they feel there is value in going back to a company that deserted them
 
A prosumer Mac is what those are looking for.

These are people that do independent work for themselves or consulting for other individuals. I would not necessarily describe that as a hobby if they take it seriously. It’s clear Apple does not care about this group anymore though even though they were the ones championing Macs from the beginning.

I do that, and the MBP is quite fine for my needs. Anecdotally, to be sure, but if you look at the wider small business / consulting market the vast percentage is well served by laptops or desktops that are not hardly cutting edge. Apple and PC manufacturers have hit the sweet spot of the market; with Apple and some PC manufacturers going for the top end as well. That market between current offerings and high end machines is probably too small to be worthwhile developing a targeted machine.
 
Yes, we all wanted a Desktop Mac. A PC Mac of Sort. But Apple isn't giving any. One reason being they don't want you to upgrade your Mac and not buy a new one.

However I am actually optimistic Apple will in the next 2 - 3 years put out a Desktop Mac or a Powerful Mac mini, as they are finally moving the majority of its user to iPad. With iPadOS, most if not all of your work could be done on it. And leaves Mac with only Prosumer and Professional users, i.e the whole Mac category would be in itself in Pro Segment. No longer do we need Super Thin MacBook and trying to dump down the MacOS as appliance.

There could be a Mac mini with 8 or even 16 Core and Discrete Graphics, Every Spec you wanted except for upgrading. And Apple will milk the Mac Segment for as long as they could. I think the time is roughly 2-3 years after iPadOS release. So 2021 / 2022 Fall.

This is the issue I have. What is the 'Pro' market? The multi-billion dollar Hollywood studios? large corporations? Medium/Small businesses, or freelancers? They are all earning a living from their kit, but have very, very different requirements and budget. I fit into the freelance sector. I need a platform that is more flexible than an iMac and I'm willing to pay for it. However a $6k starting point for quite a low spec is unrealistic. I'd pay $3500 at the most for that spec. It's all it is worth - roughly $500-1000 over the component price for the ability to run Mac OS, but certainly not an extra $3000. And judging from the various reactions on the web I'm not alone in thinking this, and I really don't care how much Apple's R&D costs are, it's not worth an extra $3000 to the entry price. I will probably never need 28 cores, I will never need 1.5TB RAM (128GB is more than enough) and I will never need multiple pro-level GPU's and accelerator cards for video. I need a machine, like many other freelancers, that maxes out at around $8,000-$10,000, not the estimated $40,000 of the new Mac Pro. Apple have built a machine for the top 1%, not the small businesses and freelancers that were the mainstay of the old Mac Pro that had an entry price of roughly $3000 with each iteration once you take inflation into account.

I get they won't build a desktop Mac, but is this because they believe I am best served by an iMac or because they are arrogant enough to think 'those guys can live with an iMac and upgrade when we make it obsolete, and not hang onto it for 5+ years through upgrades'. Apple needs to decide whether they want the freelance market or not. There are a lot of us and we tend to spend a lot more than the average consumer, but we won't be forced to buy something that doesn't meet our requirements.
 
This is the issue I have. What is the 'Pro' market?
They are, by Apple's definition, users who need more computing power than what even the iMac Pro can supply.

I need a platform that is more flexible than an iMac and I'm willing to pay for it.
I think you are what could be termed as the "hobbyist" market, for quite some time, I think the people here have been conflating these two terms. When people say they want a pro Mac, what they really mean is that they want a headless Mac which they can tinker with and upgrade on their own, while Apple clearly has a differing view here.

I get they won't build a desktop Mac, but is this because they believe I am best served by an iMac or because they are arrogant enough to think 'those guys can live with an iMac and upgrade when we make it obsolete, and not hang onto it for 5+ years through upgrades'.

Probably a little bit of both.

Just curious. Let's say money isn't a concern. What is it you do that an iMac or iMac Pro can't handle?

I get that you want to think for the long term and don't want to buy a sealed computer that becomes obsolete in 3 years (though a Mac probably can last 4-5 years even without upgrades), but given how expensive the Mac Pro likely will be, seems like this might be the only real option left for you.
 
They are, by Apple's definition, users who need more computing power than what even the iMac Pro can supply.


I think you are what could be termed as the "hobbyist" market, for quite some time, I think the people here have been conflating these two terms. When people say they want a pro Mac, what they really mean is that they want a headless Mac which they can tinker with and upgrade on their own, while Apple clearly has a differing view here.



Probably a little bit of both.

Just curious. Let's say money isn't a concern. What is it you do that an iMac or iMac Pro can't handle?

I get that you want to think for the long term and don't want to buy a sealed computer that becomes obsolete in 3 years (though a Mac probably can last 4-5 years even without upgrades), but given how expensive the Mac Pro likely will be, seems like this might be the only real option left for you.


LMFAO. Hobbyist! By that notion every freelancer on the planet is a 'hobbyist', not a small business owner. Can I tell the tax man I'm a hobbyist too so I don't have to pay him corporation tax?

What has changed over the past few years is Apples' perception requirements of the 'Professional'. They wrongly assume everyone can make do with an iPad or an iMac or some other sealed appliance. Or perhaps they are arrogant enough to assume they can peddle sealed appliances instead of what is really wanted and in the absence desired product the appliance will be bought instead. Wrong. Our needs are wide an varied and Apple use to cater for this market. Now it appears we aren't good enough for them or they want to just milk every single penny to a point that is beyond acceptable.

What can't the iMac and iMac Pro do for me? Any form of internal expansion other then upgradable RAM on the iMac. Now my requirement of wanting internal expansion isn't 'tinkering', it is getting the best out of the assets I purchase by being able to swap out components as I need to, and also to lower my down time (and cost to the business) if something easily replaceable breaks. There are only 2 of us in my company so there is no way I can afford onsite support, except when it comes with the product (Thank you Dell/Lenovo) and there is no way I will take a machine back to the store if an SSD (for example) fails - I'll just replace it. I also move components from one computer to the next when I do upgrade if some of those parts are still of use and don't need replacing now - GPU, SSD's, etc. Again, this isn't tinkering, it's making the best out of the equipment I have which is how you make a profit with a small business. You also don't over-spec just to meet requirements 2-3 years down the line, you upgrade and only replace when you have to.

Now having the Mac Pro as the only option available to me is an issue. The starting price is too high for the spec. Now I accept a Mac will always be more expensive than a PC, and I also accept a certain amount of 'Apple Tax' for the convenience of running Mac OS. However how much should we pay for this? The entry point for the Mac Pro has previously been around $3k. It's now $6k. But that spec is barely any faster than my 3 year old X99 PC, so I would need to spend around $10k (estimated). Now that is too expensive, when a PC costing half the price will be much, much faster running the same applications. Computers simply offer diminishing returns and there is a point for my business where I would see little benefit in performance between a $5k and a $10k computer - a nice case doesn't make it run faster. I would also never need 1.5TB RAM or the high-end graphics Apple have announced so there's no point in buying a computer that is engineered to such levels. That was the beauty of the old Mac Pro, it was engineered to start at a lower level but could grow as required.

I get the benefits of Mac OS and iCloud having previously owned several MBP's, MP's, iPads, etc but there is a limit to the benefits of a given platform. Many freelancers and small business owners will be weighing up the cost of running Mac OS as their preferred platform now the next Mac Pro has been announced. I feel for many Apple is not longer viable as the price to entry is either too high (Mac Pro) or compromised (iMac).
 
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Swappable GPUs. Easy access to internals for dust and other cleaning. Upgradeable sockets for CPU or RAM. Easy access to upgrade storage. Ability to change my display.
The lack of simple access to the iMac for cleaning has been my biggest gripe with the last three iMacs I have owned. Every one of them has become susceptible to overheating and excessive fan noise after 3 years or so, primarily caused by dust blocking cooling vents. As it is, the only way to do this is to use a suction cup device to remove the outer screen, use special tools to unscrew and pry off the display, and be careful not to damage display cables while doing so, etc., etc. If the iMac somehow incorporated a simpler way to adequately vacuum/blow out dust every year or so, without undue risk of damage, at least another few years of use would be facilitated. It would also be helpful if components were not soldered/glued so that easy swapping/upgrading would be simpler. Below is a two year old video showing how to open an iMac up - it can be done, but I would find it nerve racking to do so with a machine costing several thousand dollars. You'll note the amount of dust which has accumulated inside the iMac after it is opened. That's where the cooling problems are rooted. This looks to be an older iMac from 2013 or so, as it has a thicker form factor than the newer ones, but if anything, the even thinner form factor for more recent iMacs can exacerbate ventilation problems. I couldn't find a more recent demo on opening these things. Interestingly, if you go to Youtube and search "how to clean an iMac", you'll see demo's going back 6 or 7 years. It's been a problem with iMacs for quite a while.


Addendum: a more recent demo on opening (closing) the iMac Pro. It is at least a bit more upgradable with socketed parts.

 
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I think it's becoming increasingly clear that a lot of the perceived demand for a "pro Mac" is actually a desire for a "hobbyist Mac", aka a Mac you can tinker with and upgrade yourself.

What I am observing is that PCs have more or less become powerful enough for the bulk of computer work. Most people here don't "need" a pro Mac to do their work. Their needs would be perfectly met with a 15" MBP or a 5k iMac (or iMac Pro), paired with 1-2 LG 5k displays. Even the entry level iMac is doable if you are willing to stock up on T5 drives to get around the comparatively slower fusion drive.

What they are actually frustrated with is that Macs are increasingly becoming these sealed boxes that users can no longer tinker with. It's now "use for 3 years, then upgrade", but performance was never an issue. It's telling. The people who gripe and whine about how the Apple reference monitor costs $6k, or aren't already using an iMac Pro, are clearly not the target market.

I called it from day one. It makes sense that the Mac Pro is going to be an extremely powerful PC for users whose computing needs still can't be met with a souped-up iMac Pro (and cost proportionally more as well). For everyone else, Apple's existing Mac lineup more than suffices. In this context, a mid-tier headless Mac makes no sense, considering you already have the iMac for that.

Hence, it is quite fascinating to watch the apple community come to terms that by finally meeting almost every one of their demands for a Mac Pro, Apple ended up making a Mac that was not for any of them. Part of me wonders if part of the demand for a Mac Pro actually comes from PC trolls who knew that Apple's solution would cost so much that it would make them a ripe target for criticism. Either way - it's never been clearer. Most of the long-time critics here lambasting Apple for not releasing a Mac Pro were never the target market for such a product anyways.

Just another example of why Apple is smart not to take product advice from anonymous strangers on random Internet forums.

There are a couple reasons this argument is false.

First off, it's really a flawed position to argue that Peter Jackson is a "pro" and everyone else is a "prosumer". Game of Thrones = pro, an ad agency in Dallas is "prosumer".

Secondly, this "super powerful" Mac Pro is actually going to be slower than a $3,000 Windows PC in many situations because of CUDA. This Mac Pro is using AMD's GPU architecture. CUDA only works with nVidia. When you look at the speed of Cinema 4D coupled with Octane's renderer that uses CUDA, when you look at the speed of Davinci Resolve with CUDA, this Mac Pro is a giant waste of money for most situations that utilize the GPU. Sure, when you render out your final project, having a million cores will make it faster. But most of my work is done modeling/animating in Cinema 4D, and compositing/editing – not rendering. And that's what render farms are for! Get 2-3 rack-mounted PCs and put them in a rack next to your desk and render a lightning speed.

There is misleading marketing by Apple on this. I edit 8K footage from a "pro" RED Dragon camera on my 6-year old Mac Pro right now without transcoding. Nobody I know shoots in RAW because 8K RAW fills up the flash cards at about 750 MBps and the difference between RAW and 3:1 compression on RED or Arri is not perceivable by anyone I know. Those codecs are super clean when color grading, no banding at all.

So it's just dishonest or ignorant to paint everyone who doesn't need a $6K Mac Pro with a $290 Radeon Pro 580X GPU as a "prosumer". A $2000 PC with a single nVidia RTX 2080 would blow away that $6K Mac Pro in Adobe After Effects, Davinci Resolve, Cinema 4D/Octane and everything else that utilized CUDA.
 
Swappable GPUs. Easy access to internals for dust and other cleaning. Upgradeable sockets for CPU or RAM. Easy access to upgrade storage. Ability to change my display.

next nonsense you want to espouse?

That’s the thing.

None of what you mentioned has anything to do with the computing power of a Mac.

To put it bluntly, a computer could have none of the features you mentioned above, and still be capable of accomplishing whatever task you throw at it.
 
The lack of simple access to the iMac for cleaning has been my biggest gripe with the last three iMacs I have owned. Every one of them has become susceptible to overheating and excessive fan noise after 3 years or so, primarily caused by dust blocking cooling vents. As it is, the only way to do this is to use a suction cup device to remove the outer screen, use special tools to unscrew and pry off the display, and be careful not to damage display cables while doing so, etc., etc. If the iMac somehow incorporated a simpler way to adequately vacuum/blow out dust every year or so, without undue risk of damage, at least another few years of use would be facilitated. It would also be helpful if components were not soldered/glued so that easy swapping/upgrading would be simpler. Below is a two year old video showing how to open an iMac up - it can be done, but I would find it nerve racking to do so with a machine costing several thousand dollars. You'll note the amount of dust which has accumulated inside the iMac after it is opened. That's where the cooling problems are rooted.


And that's the point i have with these machines. the iMac's aren't "bad" computers and don't want to imply it. But I have my own wants / needs and a All-In-One locked down platform doesn't hit those needs.

As for enterprise as well, I will never purchase an All-in-one for any user that I cannot easily swap components on or dust. I work for a bank. Branches are high traffic and are dust and dirt nightmares. We're constantly having to open up a computer, dust it off and put it back in service, and often have to do this in about 5 minutes (closing teller stations pisses customers off more than just about anything. Nobody likes lining up). I am willing to bet anyone in a larger enterprise has the same concerns about dust and cleaning out machines. Same goes for swapping out storage. Believe it or not, If a workstation's drive dies, I can have a new drive imaged and ready to go in < 20 minutes and swap that drive into the workstation in about 5 or less.
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That’s the thing.

None of what you mentioned has anything to do with the computing power of a Mac.

To put it bluntly, a computer could have none of the features you mentioned above, and still be capable of accomplishing whatever task you throw at it.

you literally asked "what are things you can't do".... So I provided them. You didn't specific power wise.

I have never said the iMac (pro) are bad computers from a performance standpoint. But there are absolutely things about them, especially being mostly glued down and sealed All-in-ones that limit their use cases for many users.

don't change the goalposts because someone gave you an answer you didn't think of.
 
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What can't the iMac and iMac Pro do for me? Any form of internal expansion other then upgradable RAM on the iMac. Now my requirement of wanting internal expansion isn't 'tinkering', it is getting the best out of the assets I purchase by being able to swap out components as I need to, and also to lower my down time (and cost to the business) if something easily replaceable breaks. There are only 2 of us in my company so there is no way I can afford onsite support, except when it comes with the product (Thank you Dell/Lenovo) and there is no way I will take a machine back to the store if an SSD (for example) fails - I'll just replace it. I also move components from one computer to the next when I do upgrade if some of those parts are still of use and don't need replacing now - GPU, SSD's, etc. Again, this isn't tinkering, it's making the best out of the equipment I have which is how you make a profit with a small business. You also don't over-spec just to meet requirements 2-3 years down the line, you upgrade and only replace when you have to.

And if I read you correctly, it essentially boils down to cost for you.

Nothing wrong with wanting to get maximum bang for your buck, but again, it goes back to my original point about there not being a mid-tier Mac Pro precisely because the imac and iMac Pro already meet them power-wise.

Hence the irony. By finally meeting every one of your demands for a Mac Pro, Apple ended up making a computer that is 100% not for any of you.

There’s a difference between a truly professional Mac for the power user who still couldn’t get the computing power he needed from an iMac Pro, and a Mac user who simply likes tinkering with his computer.

And for the longest time, the two kept being conflated together.

WWDC finally showed them for the two district user bases that they are.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe there is an audience for the Mac Pro and that crazy monitor Apple unveiled.

None of them are present here.

That’s why it’s fascinating to see this cognitive dissonance being played out in real time.
 
you literally asked "what are things you can't do".... So I provided them. You didn't specific power wise.

It was pretty clear what I was referring to (performance). You quoted one sentence out of my entire response (and numerous responses before that), proceeded to ignore everything else I said and then pretend that I didn’t clarify myself in the first place?

Regardless, let’s just say it’s my fault and I wasn’t clear enough on the onset. I am setting the record straight now.
 
Oh, god...your bias is totally clouding your ability to think rationally.

First, just because something has "pro" label slapped on it, that doesn't mean it is the one and only option for pros.

Reputable company? Yeah, their reputation is slowly going down the drain with their anti consumer practices.

When my "black box" malfunctions, I try to find the reason for malfunction. If the reason is in hardware, I go to the store where I bought the part, and they usually give me new one. But for this you are right. Apple still has best customer support. Not gonna argue against that.

As for cooling, there are water cooling designs that will keep powerful CPUs such as i9 cool and be quiet at the same time. Nothing that only Apple can do.

And last, yeah, maybe I am clueless about profit margin. It might be actually higher. You know, wholesale parts are even cheaper than retail.

Thank you for showing how the new Mac Pro is not for you. Someone who slaps components together is not the target market. You also don't do the type of work that the Mac Pro is designed to handle. If you did, you wouldn't be slapping parts together yourself. You'd be working at a studio that would ensure you have the best name brand machine on which to work, and with all of the support that goes with that. You simply aren't the target market for Mac Pro. For your needs there is the iMac/iMac Pro.

Well, if you mean by, "Who? Exactly.", that System76, Pogo Linux, Purism, or Station X (based in Europe) Linux PC companies are irrelevant to the subject of fine hardware due to their market share, so be it. There was a time, long ago, when Apple was in the same category. Actually, "Who? Exactly." has been derogatorily applied to Linux the last 25 years, but somehow, it has managed to struggle along, dominating server rooms and micro-electronics hardware for the last 15 years. The original query was something to the affect, "Name a similar hardware offering to the Mac Pro for a cheaper base price." I followed up with the System76 link to the Thelio line. It seemed an appropriate answer to the query.

The two are not comparable and that is the point. If I'm a buyer at a studio needing this kind of horsepower, I'm going with a name and brand I trust. I can guarantee you, nobody is choosing a no-name like "Thelio" over Apple. Nobody.

Are you German?
A lot of people around here have this strange habit to explain things by stating what it is NOT.

Germans exude a lot of common sense.
[doublepost=1560184313][/doublepost]I feel sorry for all the people who desperately want a Mac Pro to fill out their ego but actually need something closer to an iMac, and are angry that Apple priced their ego boost beyond reach. For these people, who derive their identities and sense of self worth from their acquisitions, an i-product simply will not do.
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Swappable GPUs. Easy access to internals for dust and other cleaning. Upgradeable sockets for CPU or RAM. Easy access to upgrade storage. Ability to change my display.

next nonsense you want to espouse?
When was the last time you needed to do any of that? In terms of upgrading storage, what could be easier than plugging in a Thunderbolt drive? Swappable GPUs? That's never been a thing with Apple, even with the old slotted Mac Pro. You can only use the hardware that Apple blesses. For what you describe, a hackintosh seems appropriate.
 
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When was the last time you needed to do any of that? In terms of upgrading storage, what could be easier than plugging in a Thunderbolt drive? Swappable GPUs? That's never been a thing with Apple, even with the old slotted Mac Pro. You can only use the hardware that Apple blesses. For what you describe, a hackintosh seems appropriate.


I just upgraded the Storage and RAM in my computer a couple weeks ago and will be looking to upgrade my GPU in the next 3-4 months. all 3 of these upgrades take less than 5 minute to install.


the thing is, I don't want to Hackintosh because I want official support for the devices I want to use. I also don't trust Hackintoshing. I've done it in the past, it's fun hobby, but not something I trust for full day to day operation.


I'm just not a fan of putting things external via cables when it's not required to do so. it adds mess to my desk and a mess of cables under the desk (more power cables too). My current build is a Mini-ITX cube that is a 8c/16t R7-1700 with 32gb DDR4-3200MHZ RAM and a full GTX 1070. 512gb NVME and 1tb 2.5" SSD. All in a single, self contained cube.
 
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When was the last time you needed to do any of that? In terms of upgrading storage, what could be easier than plugging in a Thunderbolt drive? Swappable GPUs? That's never been a thing with Apple, even with the old slotted Mac Pro. You can only use the hardware that Apple blesses. For what you describe, a hackintosh seems appropriate.

Hard drive, last year. RAM would have also been last year, but it was soldered in. It has been a while for a GPU, but the last one I did was in a Mac when the GPU went bad, I swapped it out with a newer model in the same family. 5 minute job once the part came in. One of my newer Macs is a paperweight because the GPU went bad 3 months after the warranty expired. In addition when I had Macs that were easily openable, I would blow out the dust every couple of months to keep it running smooth.

When I had the option, RAM and Hard Drive were my most common upgrades. Like most people calling for this mid-range Mac I would buy what I needed at the time and "mid-life" upgrade the RAM and Hard Drive. At Apple's upgrade pricing buying what you might need in two-three years in ridiculously expensive.

Also please stop drinking the Kool-Aid that an All-In-One (AIO) is the same as a desktop. It is not, they are similar, but not the same. If is as if you were to say that a cargo van and a pickup are the same because they both carry things. For a lot of cargo they both will work, but people have requirements that will lead them to choose one over the other. It is the same for AIO vs Desktop. Just because both meet your requirements, do not assume that both will meet mine.
 
And if I read you correctly, it essentially boils down to cost for you.

Nothing wrong with wanting to get maximum bang for your buck, but again, it goes back to my original point about there not being a mid-tier Mac Pro precisely because the imac and iMac Pro already meet them power-wise.

Hence the irony. By finally meeting every one of your demands for a Mac Pro, Apple ended up making a computer that is 100% not for any of you.

There’s a difference between a truly professional Mac for the power user who still couldn’t get the computing power he needed from an iMac Pro, and a Mac user who simply likes tinkering with his computer.

And for the longest time, the two kept being conflated together.

WWDC finally showed them for the two district user bases that they are.

Don’t get me wrong. I believe there is an audience for the Mac Pro and that crazy monitor Apple unveiled.

None of them are present here.

That’s why it’s fascinating to see this cognitive dissonance being played out in real time.

I agree the iMac and iMac Pro do meet a mid-tier performance wise, but fail miserably in comparison when it comes to flexibility. Traditional buyers of a desktop Mac simply wouldn't buy and iMac or iMac Pro because of their form factor and the design flaws that come with it.

And Apple did not meet 100% of the demands, they completely failed when it came to realising value at the entry level. And before you get all excited don't confuse cost with value, they are different concepts. Something costing $1bn would be excellent value if you could earn $10bn from it, while something costing $1k would represent very poor value if you only make $1.1k from it. The Mac Pro starting at $5999 has a very poor spec for the money. It makes no sense to buy this machine at base spec and upgrading it to a useful point make you step back and question whether it is worth it. This is why it represents poor value at the low end as too much of the cost is made up of engineering for features only the top 1% would ever use, but it comes across as a fancy case and some 'Apple Tax'. It's all about perception.

Take workstations from other manufacturers (Dell, HP, Lenovo) and even their high-end models have a low entry point (which again you wouldn't buy) but the starting price is around $3k. Even though you would spec it out to a similar price to the Mac Pro you get the feeling less of the product is made up of 'fancy case', yet these products scale just as high if not higher than the Mac Pro if you need them to and are also engineered properly - i.e. they are not cheap desktop PCs. They also offer onsite support, which Apple don't do, which is ridiculous on such a 'Pro' machine. There is simply more perceived value.

Apple have simply priced the Mac Pro too high at the low end because they don't want to cannibalise sales of the iMac Pro, but they fail to see desktop buyers don't buy all in one computers. They are cannibalising their own sales by pricing too high as customers waiting for the reveal have now seen Apples cards and decided to move on - no point waiting any longer. If Apple had the starting point with a 10-core Xeon, 1TB SSD (they aren't expensive any longer) and a mid-range GPU many would swallow the $5999 starting point as it would seem like good value. 32GB RAM isn't so much of an issue, but Apple should probably ship it with 48GB to use all of the memory channels. An 8-core CPU, 32GB RAM, an ancient GPU and 256GB SSD doesn't represent value at $5999. Any benefits of the engineering are lost because of the low spec and high price.

Again it's not tinkering, it's running a small business where you have to do your own IT, compared to employing someone to do it for you. The big guys still 'tinker', they just employ their own engineers to do it. And it's called maintenance. There is a difference, between that and tinkering. Tinkering is something enthusiasts do because they want bragging rights after they have overclocked something. Maintenance is what businesses have to do because of a failure or to implement an upgrade because something is or will interrupt their workflow and they like to avoid maintenance as it costs money. That's the difference, tinkering you do for fun, maintenance you do to keep things running.

As for 'truly professional', don't talk rubbish. Professional - engaged in a specific activity as one's main paid occupation rather than an amateur. The fact I get paid for my efforts defines me as a professional as it does for many others, regardless of the size of their business. I don't need to be earning millions for this to be true. Apple did not show distinct user bases at WWDC to define the 'true professional' either, it convinced you that an all in one computer is a replacement for a desktop simply because it has the same performance. Stop drinking the cool aid, it's not a replacement. They just simply decided to tell you which one you should buy and to push the limits of pricing at the same time. And this is just pure greed. Apple have always been more expensive and to a point it's been worth it. That is no longer true.

Ask yourself a question, if Apple released Mac OS on HP Z, Dell Precision, etc how many would buy those compared to the Mac Pro?

And one more thing. For such a 'Pro' machine why doesn't it have more than one PSU or a hot-swap PSU?
 
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There’s a difference between a truly professional Mac for the power user who still couldn’t get the computing power he needed from an iMac Pro, and a Mac user who simply likes tinkering with his computer.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about. The iMac Pro uses the AMD GPU, not nVidia. This means it's of no use to a "truly professional" or anyone else who wants to use CUDA.

Apple's FCP X and Motion are optimized for OpenCL, which does really well with AMD's GPUs. But all of the "truly professional" applications use CUDA, which only uses nVidia.

So the iMac Pro is an oxymoron. It's not for "pros".

And your comments about "tinkering" are also very ignorant. We don't "tinker". We upgrade our Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 with a PCI card and we keep on rolling in our edit suite. You think studios in LA or ad agencies in NYC want to replace all their Mac Pros with iMac Pros just for Thunderbolt 3? No, what they do is say "This is bullshît, Windows 10 is good enough, let's run all the same apps we are using right now on a Windows PC that allows us to upgrade to Thunderbolt 3".
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Yes, Apple is no longer really interested in providing a headless upgradable Mac for people of the hobbyist or "prosumer" category. If those folks don't want an all-in-one, but still want MacOS, they're either stuck with the mini or investing in their own hackintosh. It will be interesting to see if the new Mac Pro becomes successful with the up-scale crowd for which it is apparently intended. After 6 or 7 years a lot of those folks may have already migrated to high end PC's.

Yes, most migrated to PCs when FCP X came out, and when the Mac Pro 2013 came out that didn't support CUDA.
 
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Thank you for showing how the new Mac Pro is not for you. Someone who slaps components together is not the target market. You also don't do the type of work that the Mac Pro is designed to handle. If you did, you wouldn't be slapping parts together yourself. You'd be working at a studio that would ensure you have the best name brand machine on which to work, and with all of the support that goes with that. You simply aren't the target market for Mac Pro. For your needs there is the iMac/iMac Pro.



The two are not comparable and that is the point. If I'm a buyer at a studio needing this kind of horsepower, I'm going with a name and brand I trust. I can guarantee you, nobody is choosing a no-name like "Thelio" over Apple. Nobody.



Germans exude a lot of common sense.
[doublepost=1560184313][/doublepost]I feel sorry for all the people who desperately want a Mac Pro to fill out their ego but actually need something closer to an iMac, and are angry that Apple priced their ego boost beyond reach. For these people, who derive their identities and sense of self worth from their acquisitions, an i-product simply will not do.
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When was the last time you needed to do any of that? In terms of upgrading storage, what could be easier than plugging in a Thunderbolt drive? Swappable GPUs? That's never been a thing with Apple, even with the old slotted Mac Pro. You can only use the hardware that Apple blesses. For what you describe, a hackintosh seems appropriate.
Hubris is a dangerous thing.
 
@tallscot That has always been my stance from day one. Get a Mac if you live and breathe Final Cut Pro, stick with a PC if you favour adobe premiere.

In fact, I think MKBHD actually carted his iMac Pro all the way to WWDC (saw it in his hotel room in an earlier video).

Either way, I don’t see Apple releasing a mid-tier headless Mac for the reasons I stated (the performance it would afford is already replicated by existing Mac models). The reasons you gave are nothing new. They have not stopped Apple from releasing sealed MacBooks and iMacs, so why would it make them change their minds now?
 
@tallscot That has always been my stance from day one. Get a Mac if you live and breathe Final Cut Pro, stick with a PC if you favour adobe premiere.

In fact, I think MKBHD actually carted his iMac Pro all the way to WWDC (saw it in his hotel room in an earlier video).

Either way, I don’t see Apple releasing a mid-tier headless Mac for the reasons I stated (the performance it would afford is already replicated by existing Mac models). The reasons you gave are nothing new. They have not stopped Apple from releasing sealed MacBooks and iMacs, so why would it make them change their minds now?

The 2010 Mac Pro with an nVidia card is faster than the iMac Pro with Davinci Resolve, Cinema 4D with Octane, Premiere Pro, After Effects, so I disagree that a headless Mac would replicate existing Mac models. Any Mac with an nVidia card would blow away the AMD GPU Macs in those applications. A $2,000 Mac Pro with a PCI slot, $799 RTX 2080, and RTX 2080 drivers would be faster than the $6k Mac Pro with the $289 Radeon GPU or any other AMD card, because of CUDA. You either aren’t getting that or you are purposely being misleading.

On another subject, there is a disconnect between FCP X and that 2019 Mac Pro. FCP X is not the app 100% of the people who would pay $6K for a monitor and $999 for a stand are using. FCP X doesn’t even support AAF audio. If you don’t know what Pro Tools is or AAF, again, you don’t know what you are talking about and should stop discussing what “pros” want or buy.
 
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