Who? Exactly.
The reason Apple doesn't support nVidia cards is because nVidia cards don't allow MacOS to write directly to the hardware. Apple wants complete control in order to provide the best experience and maximum performance.
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New Mac Pro is Quieter Than iMac Pro, Has Optional Wheels, and Was Kept in Top-Secret 'Stealth Enclosure'
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Who? Exactly.
The reason Apple doesn't support nVidia cards is because nVidia cards don't allow MacOS to write directly to the hardware. Apple wants complete control in order to provide the best experience and maximum performance.
Nice ad hominem there.
If I "slap something together", and it is equal or better in performance to this kitchen utensil, for less money, then the discussion is over. The most important conclusion is that Apple is getting 100 percent profit margin. Highest of any product they've made to this day.
You are getting RX 580 and 256 GB of storage in $6000 computer. Just let that sink in.
Apple hit the ball out of the park with both the Mac Pro and the new Pro Display XDR.
Not everyone's opinion matters here, sorry to many in this forum. The internet lets everyone have a say, but the vast majority who are spouting off are not even Apple's intended market for this hardware. Your opinions don't matter. Let that sink in for a moment. YOUR OPINION DOESN'T COUNT. Go away. Slide back under the rock from whence you came.
This isn't for some idiot with a Youtube channel who thinks he or she is a "creator" any more than is a RED camera. This is for hardcore workloads where time=money. Video production and VFX houses. Serious studio-level stuff.
This is NOT for photographers
This is NOT for editing Youtube videos
This is NOT for Photoshop stuff
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No, the discussion isn't over. Your slapping components together ≠ buying a purposefully designed system from a reputable company and all the support that goes with it. You're not designing an enclosure to make a pro's life that much easier, or a cooling system to maximize performance while minimizing noise. Who do you go to for service when your black box stops working for whatever reason? When there's a bug causing an issue with your workflow, is Microsoft as proactive as Apple?
You have no idea what Apple's profit margin is here because you have no clue about Apple's costs. None.
Not everyone's opinion matters here, sorry to many in this forum. The internet lets everyone have a say, but the vast majority who are spouting off are not even Apple's intended market for this hardware. Your opinions don't matter. Let that sink in for a moment. YOUR OPINION DOESN'T COUNT. Go away. Slide back under the rock from whence you came.
This isn't for some idiot with a Youtube channel who thinks he or she is a "creator" any more than is a RED camera. This is for hardcore workloads where time=money. Video production and VFX houses. Serious studio-level stuff.
This is NOT for photographers
This is NOT for editing Youtube videos
This is NOT for Photoshop stuff
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No, the discussion isn't over. Your slapping components together ≠ buying a purposefully designed system from a reputable company and all the support that goes with it. You're not designing an enclosure to make a pro's life that much easier, or a cooling system to maximize performance while minimizing noise. Who do you go to for service when your black box stops working for whatever reason? When there's a bug causing an issue with your workflow, is Microsoft as proactive as Apple?
You have no idea what Apple's profit margin is here because you have no clue about Apple's costs. None.
Of course. Why would they be negative if they intended to buy it?
I work in exactly the fields you mention and I wouldn't buy this machine.
You can build massively multi core machines for less money than the base spec of this one. The kind of thing that can be tailored to specific requirements of different jobs. You might need Apple's support and gladly add thousands onto what's being offered for the privilege but for someone like myself who can build and maintain computers... I'm not (willing).
Oh, god...your bias is totally clouding your ability to think rationally.
First, just because something has "pro" label slapped on it, that doesn't mean it is the one and only option for pros.
Reputable company? Yeah, their reputation is slowly going down the drain with their anti consumer practices.
When my "black box" malfunctions, I try to find the reason for malfunction. If the reason is in hardware, I go to the store where I bought the part, and they usually give me new one. But for this you are right. Apple still has best customer support. Not gonna argue against that.
As for cooling, there are water cooling designs that will keep powerful CPUs such as i9 cool and be quiet at the same time. Nothing that only Apple can do.
And last, yeah, maybe I am clueless about profit margin. It might be actually higher. You know, wholesale parts are even cheaper than retail.
The mac pro page talks about using the 8K ProRes RAW format, seems like that's what they're targeting with this hardware. May not be many shooting in that format yet but for those who are using it now or will in the future, it's an option with this machine. Apple is targeting the high end, that is the GoT and Peter Jacksons of the world.
Yet here you are offering your opinion, which I'm sure many here would find equally worthless.
Christ, get over yourself dude.
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It makes sense that Apple uses ProRes in their documentation and tests. It's their codec after all. However they're going to have to show solid performance with other standards as well, which I think they will.
Well, if you mean by, "Who? Exactly.", that System76, Pogo Linux, Purism, or Station X (based in Europe) Linux PC companies are irrelevant to the subject of fine hardware due to their market share, so be it. There was a time, long ago, when Apple was in the same category. Actually, "Who? Exactly." has been derogatorily applied to Linux the last 25 years, but somehow, it has managed to struggle along, dominating server rooms and micro-electronics hardware for the last 15 years. The original query was something to the affect, "Name a similar hardware offering to the Mac Pro for a cheaper base price." I followed up with the System76 link to the Thelio line. It seemed an appropriate answer to the query.
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A fun toy, though.The wheels make it look like a toy.
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Yeah, it is. I got a 256G thumb drive fast enough to boot off of for less than $40 a couple weeks ago. This machine has the word Pro on it. The base model, at $6K, should have more storage built in than you get built-in on the *mid-range* iPhone. It only has half the storage of the top-of-the-line iPhone. Call me old fashioned, but "Pro" computers should have bigger hard drives than the same company's phones, even without paying more.
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I'm thinking rolling carryon hard suitcase.The wheels make it look like a toy
It's not a matter of a machine having the word "Pro" on it.
Mac Pro users Apple is targeting are those engaged in professional video production, animation, 3D, image processing, etc and will use external storage for video other data. The internal SSD will hold the OS and apps. From you comment I suspect you are not a customer Apple has in mind.
That being the case, if the base model internal storage is still not enough for you, simply upgrade at the time of purchase. Easy. Or...price out a competitive workstation from HP and others, and pay more money.
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I think you should put your own system together and be happy.
Apple's Mac Pro is for professionals who might work for companies like Disney, Pixar, etc. They purchase commercial workstations spec'd to their needs, including support and a warranty. Compared to other offerings, the Mac Pro is well-priced. And Apple's new display is a relative steal.
[doublepost=1559871643][/doublepost]This is almost ideal. Sadly, I have no current use case. The deficiency is lack of Nvidia support. If I have a use case I will buy the coming ARM version. My 2019 Mini with 5k LG display is wonderful.
On the latest episode of the Mac Power Users podcast, hosts David Sparks and Stephen Hackett had the opportunity to speak with Apple product manager Doug Brooks about the all-new Mac Pro, unveiled at WWDC 2019 earlier this week.
The new Mac Pro is an absolute powerhouse with up to 28-core Intel Xeon processors, up to 1.5TB of RAM, up to 4TB of SSD storage, and the option for the "world's most powerful graphics card" in the AMD Radeon Pro Vega II. Brooks said this performance will ensure the Mac Pro remains capable well into the future:To manage the heat that comes with this performance, Brooks said the new Mac Pro has a so-called "low-impedance airflow system" that moves a lot of air through the system and cools the machine "very effectively":Brooks said that sound from the new Mac Pro under a desk measures around 10 decibels, making it quieter than an iMac Pro or the current Mac Pro on a desk, which he said are both already "virtually silent" at around 12 decibels.
Brooks also reflected on the new Mac Pro's optional wheels:Apple supposedly used G-sensors to ensure that the new Mac Pro would be able to withstand reasonable amounts of shock and vibrations while being wheeled around in production trucks and other professional environments.
Another notable tidbit was that, like many other Apple products, the new Mac Pro was kept in a "stealth enclosure" during testing in Apple's labs to ensure that its design remained a secret until it was announced. This was certainly effective, as the new Mac Pro's design was a complete surprise.
The entire interview can be listened to on the Mac Power Users podcast at Relay.FM.
Article Link: New Mac Pro is Quieter Than iMac Pro, Has Optional Wheels, and Was Kept in Top-Secret 'Stealth Enclosure'
I agree with the majority that Linus is being disingenuous by listing only ~ prices for mostly unnamed parts rather than a built and delivered PC with said (named) parts.
Having said that, we know Apple’s margins are generous, especially at first. They tend to give themselves room to cut prices in future as the hardware and design ages. Eventually. Not that that is very relevant to buyers now.
A custom or home-built PC is generally always the cheapest way to go. Why he thinks this is news to anyone may be unknown to anyone but himself.
Having said that, we know Apple’s margins are generous, especially at first. They tend to give themselves room to cut prices in future as the hardware and design ages. Eventually. Not that that is very relevant to buyers now.
A custom or home-built PC is generally always the cheapest way to go. Why he thinks this is news to anyone may be unknown to anyone but himself.
(Without Octane) When you add the third party Octane renderer, Cinema 4D on a PC with multiple nVidia cards absolutely blows away the Mac.
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If Apple refuses to offer or even support with drivers the nVidia GPUs, I’ll agree with you.
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Right. Not for the vast majority of content creators out there who already left the Mac when Apple cratered Final Cut Pro with an alpha build if FCP X.
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These are the type of people who act out at restaurants as well. If they didn't have this, what would they be?
From a benchmark standpoint dual-CPU's really makes sense. 64 cores on a single socket benchmarks much slower than two 32-core processors. Add the 6-channel RAM of Xeon Platinum and this machine gets left in the dust fairly quickly. By the time fall rolls around the heated battle between AMD and Intel may be turning out 256-core machines. Apple would be smart to leave a blank socket for maximum up-sell.
Are you German?
A lot of people around here have this strange habit to explain things by stating what it is NOT.
People who are speculating how many arms, legs, vital organs, first born children, etc. they will have to sell to buy a maxed-out one of these bad boys are forgetting a very crucial detail, perhaps due to the fact that they have been conditioned by Apple's solder-based ecosystem for the better part of the last ten years: Pretty much everything in this machine is socketed. Nothing, aside from the T2 chip, is soldered in, which means for the first time in nearly a decade, you finally can do something with a Mac that's actually pretty neat:
YOU CAN PIECE-MEAL THIS THING!
That's right, you can buy certain parts right off the bat, and buy other parts at a later date. And that's how you should do it. Nobody should be buying overpriced RAM from Apple, let alone 1.5 TB of it. Based on iMac Pro math (4x64 GB RAM modules = $5200), expect 12x128 GB RAM modules to run up to $30,000 for the RAM alone, if not higher. According to the press release from Intel, the Xeon W-3275M (Let's assume this is the same 28-core SKU used in this Mac Pro, not a binned version) will cost $7453.00 at launch, so with the Mac Tax, expect Apple to charge close to $10,000 for that CPU alone. I, personally, am not in the market for this machine, but if I were, here's how I would go about getting it:
At launch:
From the Apple Store, I would slightly upgrade the base configuration like this (bear with me, there's a method to my madness):
Upgrade the base 8-core Xeon to the next-tier up, the 12-core Xeon, since the 12-core Xeon supports RAM speeds of 2933 mHz, whereas the 8-core Xeon only supports RAM speeds of 2666 mHz.
Stick with the base-tier configuration of RAM from Apple, and buy 12 modules of this RAM for about one-fourth to one-third of what Apple will charge for 384 GB of RAM:
https://www.crucial.com/usa/en/ct32g4rfd4293
Upgrade the GPU to a single Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX module, do not buy two MPX modules at launch. Based on what I'm gathering, you will most likely be able to get a second one of these bad boys separately down the road, and possibly significantly cheaper when that time comes, but more on that in a bit.
Oh, just get that Afterburner, live a little! Probably will end up being one of the least-expensive components in this rig.
Max out the SSD configuration to 4 TB. If you do a lot of 4K, 5K, 6K, and/or 8K video projects, you will fill that up quick, unless you can find a lot of TB3 external storage on the cheap.
Now you're done with your launch configuration. This should tide you over for the next 2-3 years.
Down the road:
Hopefully, the 28-core Xeon W-3275M will come down in price after a couple of years of bring on the market, and you will be able to get one off eBay for potentially thousands of dollars less than what you would have paid Apple at launch.
RAM has been getting cheaper and cheaper over the past couple of months, and if those trends continue over the next 2-3 years, at least with regards to 2933 mHz ECC DDR4 RAM, you should be able to get 1.5 TB for nearly the same price you paid for the Crucial memory I linked earlier.
You will most likely be able to buy a second Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX module off eBay in 2-3 years for a fraction of what you would have paid for it at launch. And there's a good chance you can find one of these in a "Like New" condition, if not straight-up "New/Never Used".
Now, you've got a maxed-out 2019 Mac Pro for tens of thousands of dollars less than what you would have paid Apple to max out at launch. You're welcome.
YOU CAN PIECE-MEAL THIS THING!
That's right, you can buy certain parts right off the bat, and buy other parts at a later date. And that's how you should do it. Nobody should be buying overpriced RAM from Apple, let alone 1.5 TB of it. Based on iMac Pro math (4x64 GB RAM modules = $5200), expect 12x128 GB RAM modules to run up to $30,000 for the RAM alone, if not higher. According to the press release from Intel, the Xeon W-3275M (Let's assume this is the same 28-core SKU used in this Mac Pro, not a binned version) will cost $7453.00 at launch, so with the Mac Tax, expect Apple to charge close to $10,000 for that CPU alone. I, personally, am not in the market for this machine, but if I were, here's how I would go about getting it:
At launch:
From the Apple Store, I would slightly upgrade the base configuration like this (bear with me, there's a method to my madness):
Upgrade the base 8-core Xeon to the next-tier up, the 12-core Xeon, since the 12-core Xeon supports RAM speeds of 2933 mHz, whereas the 8-core Xeon only supports RAM speeds of 2666 mHz.
Stick with the base-tier configuration of RAM from Apple, and buy 12 modules of this RAM for about one-fourth to one-third of what Apple will charge for 384 GB of RAM:
https://www.crucial.com/usa/en/ct32g4rfd4293
Upgrade the GPU to a single Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX module, do not buy two MPX modules at launch. Based on what I'm gathering, you will most likely be able to get a second one of these bad boys separately down the road, and possibly significantly cheaper when that time comes, but more on that in a bit.
Oh, just get that Afterburner, live a little! Probably will end up being one of the least-expensive components in this rig.
Max out the SSD configuration to 4 TB. If you do a lot of 4K, 5K, 6K, and/or 8K video projects, you will fill that up quick, unless you can find a lot of TB3 external storage on the cheap.
Now you're done with your launch configuration. This should tide you over for the next 2-3 years.
Down the road:
Hopefully, the 28-core Xeon W-3275M will come down in price after a couple of years of bring on the market, and you will be able to get one off eBay for potentially thousands of dollars less than what you would have paid Apple at launch.
RAM has been getting cheaper and cheaper over the past couple of months, and if those trends continue over the next 2-3 years, at least with regards to 2933 mHz ECC DDR4 RAM, you should be able to get 1.5 TB for nearly the same price you paid for the Crucial memory I linked earlier.
You will most likely be able to buy a second Radeon Pro Vega II Duo MPX module off eBay in 2-3 years for a fraction of what you would have paid for it at launch. And there's a good chance you can find one of these in a "Like New" condition, if not straight-up "New/Never Used".
Now, you've got a maxed-out 2019 Mac Pro for tens of thousands of dollars less than what you would have paid Apple to max out at launch. You're welcome.
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My concern is that, similar to the trashcan Mac Pro, the GPU setup is a proprietary design - admittedly less so than the trashcan as it is PCI-e connectors with the addition of the MPX connectors. I'm assuming you could pull the MPX module and replace it with a standard PCI-e GPU card(s).
But will Apple offer other modules than the three MPX versions listed (580X, Vega II, Vega II Duo)? What about Nvidia RTX options? The AMD FirePro may have been "state of the art" when the trashcan was introduced, but when nothing was updated it became outdated quickly.
I think one thing people were looking for in a Mac Pro was versatility. Laptops, iMacs, and Minis are basically what you get at the time of purchase plus what you can attach to them externally. The whole idea of a tower is that you can swap components as your needs change. GPU selection is really limited across Apple's line - mostly AMD (are there any other options currently?).
But will Apple offer other modules than the three MPX versions listed (580X, Vega II, Vega II Duo)? What about Nvidia RTX options? The AMD FirePro may have been "state of the art" when the trashcan was introduced, but when nothing was updated it became outdated quickly.
I think one thing people were looking for in a Mac Pro was versatility. Laptops, iMacs, and Minis are basically what you get at the time of purchase plus what you can attach to them externally. The whole idea of a tower is that you can swap components as your needs change. GPU selection is really limited across Apple's line - mostly AMD (are there any other options currently?).
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Not if you're building it from parts at one-off, retail, prices. Its not like you're forging your own CPU from raw sand - each part is a complex manufactured item with the R&D, marketing, assembly, support costs baked-in and instead of enjoying the substantial bulk discounts that the likes of Apple will have negotiated you're paying the retailer to eat hot meals and sleep indoors. I've built my own PCs in the past and the reason for doing it is to get the exact spec you want - not to save money. If you save money its by leaving out features that you don't need.
Trouble is, at the moment, none of the pre-built Xeon workstations I can find let you specify '3.5GHz 8 core Intel Xeon W' or 'AMD Radeon Pro 580X' so you really can't get a valid comparison that way. What is true is that they start at around $3000 (with lower specs) and on top of that you only pay for what you need.
Best comparison at the moment is still the iMac Pro with an only slightly slower 3.2GHx 8-core Xeon W processor, a better GPU, 4x as much SSD and a display equivalent to the $1300 LG ultrafine 5k. So, basically, Apple want $2300 for the nice box and PCIe slots - whereas you'd normally expect to pay extra for the level of miniaturisation in the iMac.
True there will be many that buy it just because they can, those who buy what they need and plenty who buy what they can afford.
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It's the 'not worth it' bit that bothers me. Apple use to want this type of customer.
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Not in terms of performance, it's actually overkill for that. It's the form factor that is limiting - lack of internal storage, non-upgradable RAM and I just wouldn't buy an all in one.
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True. A bit short-sighted though. Where I used to have a MBP, a Mac Pro, an iPhone, an Apple Watch, an iPad and used to buy content from iTunes, I now have a desktop PC, a Thinkpad, an Android Phone, a fitbit, a Kindle Fire and I mostly buy content from Amazon. A combination of an Apple TV and apps on my TV play all the content, but I don't buy any Apple hardware or any use any of their services any longer. If they made computers I liked then I'd probably end up with another iPhone too and probably an ipad after that.
But then how could they upsell you to a $4000 computer
now in seriousness.
What are the storage options? are they user replaceable? if the Mac Pro is just using standard NVME than it probably just makes more sense to buy the lowest option in storage from Apple and swap in to a larger capacity on your own. 512gb NVME drives (Samsung's 970 PRO) can be found for $130 retail right now. 1TB for $335.
Personal computers until the mid-90s - as opposed to computers for the office/work, often connected to time sharing terminals - for use in the home were pretty much a luxury commodity, used by computer hobbyists, gamers, and the like, who were willing to pay thousands of dollars for them. Prices were relatively high, reflecting the relatively small customer base willing to purchase them. Though the internet had been around for decades, beginning in 1969 as Arpanet and implementation of TCP/IP shortly thereafter, access was mostly restricted to military (.mil), government (.gov), and research institutions (.edu). When higher network speeds and better graphics became available in the early 90s, the growth of browsers and the World Wide Web protocol allowed for easier access to the internet for the masses, usually via dial-up modems. Commensurate with that, computers became desirable as communications devices for information access as well as commercial transactions. Combine that with Moore's Law making personal (and business) computers much faster and cheaper to produce, prices began to fall and more folks purchased computers. This was the "tech boom" of the mid- to late-90s. Even as a career computer/network person, beginning in the mid-70s, I never purchased a computer for my home until 1998. It was, by that time, useful enough and affordable enough (< $1000) to justify finally getting one, and I could use it both for work and personal needs while at home. Laptops were still clunky and expensive and wireless was rare, so didn't buy a laptop until the early 2000s.
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The university from which I retired 11 years ago has trimmed down much of their in-house higher level tech staff in favor of contracting support from hardware providers such as Dell and backend software providers such as Red Hat Enterprise Linux. In-house IT staff are mostly low-paid part time help desk jobs (usually students), mid-range salaried machine (server) room operators, and a few higher salaried analysts who recommend hardware and software configurations for purchase, or oversee campus network infrastructure. Even machine room operators are much lower level employees than they were when I retired. They aren't involved any more with server installations and maintenance, but generally are on duty to alert the right contract folks if something goes wrong. The university only maintains storage servers for data requiring high speed access and/or high security. Everything else is cloud based, currently through Google.
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From what I gather, the cooling performance of this thing is what lots of folks are waiting to find out. If fully spec'd, this thing will generate major heat, with high end CPU(s) and as many as four high end GPU's. It would be crazy to design such a beast to be "pretty". If it is to be successful in the market for which it is priced, function needs to trump form. This is almost like a server doubling as a desktop, and has the cooling and design needs of high end server machines. It seems to have pretty decent bang for the buck at the mid- and higher level configurations, and should be attractive if it can be kept cool enough to avoid throttling. The base spec price is less of a bargain, but at least is easily upgradable if one has the money to throw at it.
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