New Mac Pro. When?

[PaulD-UK]

It's a good thing you guys aren't in charge of Apple marketing or future trends in computing.

Hi
The professional Final Cut Suite consultancy world (working with a 1.5M+ licensed user base) has a huge grasp of Apple Inc's deficiencies in maintaining and developing the future trends of Pro Apps computing in a way that brings Apple up to the start-gate again (rather than lagging increasingly behind).

None of these future road-map needs are vague - the needs of High-Def video media production in a digitally-diseminating world are here-and-now problems. And those of us who appreciate the extent of the task are (mostly) tolerant of the slow progress and seeming delays in the implemention of this enormous task.

We're very happy that Apple Inc's iPhone/iTablet/Apple TV devices have a totally integral/enabling part in that brave new world.
We just won't be treated like dumb schmucks

 

[Icaras]

A Pro Tools HD system requires PCI express cards. That right there would eliminate most pro studios. If you want to run the Apogee Symphony system you also need PCI express. If you want to use the Universal Audio UAD-2 plug-ins, you need PCI express. I am running Logic on a MBP right now, but I was planning on moving to a Mac Pro with the Apogee Symphony system and the UAD-2 PCI-e plug-ins.

I know, your absolutely right, which is why I think this would definitely hurt the bigger studios. I was just pointing to the fact that in this day and age of do-it-yourself-artists, i have always felt the need for big top notch studios have been in the decline.

But i see some merit in what Virtual Rain just said earlier about light peak. With its proposed bandwidth and potential for universal appeal, its success could eliminate the need for PCI express cards in the future.

Whenever we cross that bridge

 

[PaulD-UK]

...i see some merit in what Virtual Rain just said earlier about light peak. With its proposed bandwidth and potential for universal appeal, its success could eliminate the need for PCI express cards in the future. Whenever we cross that bridge

Hi
Amen!
Back to a 'cube' - all CPU/RAM/PSU/cooling, an LP cable, and a connectivity box, big for the Pro guys, insignificantly small for the 'laptops-for-everything' guys.

Then an ugly mish-mash of non-Apple design cabling to peripherals that causes Jobs and Ives to say No Way!. And bring the whole lot back in to a sleek Apple scheme of things. With maybe a 'new' high bandwidth protocol that is more elegant in a world without the need for Peripheral Component Interconnect slots...

Interesting times!

 

[nanofrog]

I know, your absolutely right, which is why I think this would definitely hurt the bigger studios. I was just pointing to the fact that in this day and age of do-it-yourself-artists, i have always felt the need for big top notch studios have been in the decline.

But i see some merit in what Virtual Rain just said earlier about light peak. With its proposed bandwidth and potential for universal appeal, its success could eliminate the need for PCI express cards in the future.

Whenever we cross that bridge

10Gb/s (Light Peak) = 1.25GB/s max at it's initial release (it's supposed to be capable of up to 100Gb/s or 12.5GB/s at some future date). It also attaches to PCIe lanes BTW.

A 4x lane Gen 2.0 PCIe slot is capable of 2GB/s (500MB/s * 4 lanes). So as it stands, I don't see PCIe going anywhere just yet. Light Peak will have it's place, but won't replace PCIe just yet.

 

[VirtualRain]

When technologies like SATA3, USB 3, 10G Ethernet, and Light Peak become mainstream along with SSD's that are cheap and can saturate a SATA3 6Gbps link, there will be less and less need for PCIe.

Think about it...

Graphic chips are moving onto the CPU die and/or chipset.

Cheaper, high capacity, SATA3 SSD's will eliminate the need for RAID arrays.

Almost any audio or video peripheral can get all the bandwidth it needs from USB 3 or Light Peak.

Render farms on 10G Ethernet or Light peak networks will remove the need for individual high-end workstations in serious environments.

I don't think PCIe has much of a future.

 

[nanofrog]

When technologies like SATA3, USB 3, 10G Ethernet, and Light Peak become mainstream along with SSD's that are cheap and can saturate a SATA3 6Gbps link, there will be less and less need for PCIe.

Think about it...

Graphic chips are moving onto the CPU die and/or chipset.

Cheaper, high capacity, SATA3 SSD's will eliminate the need for RAID arrays.

Almost any audio or video peripheral can get all the bandwidth it needs from USB 3 or Light Peak.

Render farms on 10G Ethernet or Light peak networks will remove the need for individual high-end workstations in serious environments.

I don't think PCIe has much of a future.

As it's going now though, PCIe is how high speed interconnects will be attached to the system though (i.e. 10G Ethernet chips and Light Peak). It'll still be there, even if the slot count is reduced until a newer, faster bus comes along.

This will apply to any system (consumer to enterprise), as PCIe is the fastest local bus to the chipset for now. I do expect that to change in time, but PCIe has another upgrade in it (Gen 3 is planned @ 1GB/s per lane - final spec expected later this year). So fast interconnects will still use it for awhile yet.

 

[VirtualRain]

As it's going now though, PCIe is how high speed interconnects will be attached to the system though (i.e. 10G Ethernet chips and Light Peak). It'll still be there, even if the slot count is reduced until a newer, faster bus comes along.

This will apply to any system (consumer to enterprise), as PCIe is the fastest local bus to the chipset for now. I do expect that to change in time, but PCIe has another upgrade in it (Gen 3 is planned @ 1GB/s per lane - final spec expected later this year). So fast interconnects will still use it for awhile yet.

Agreed... I should have said I don't see much of a future for PCIe expansion cards/slots, but having said that, there will likely be as companies offer all these new technologies (SATA3, USB3, Light Peak, etc.) for older PC's.

BTW, here's the new mainboard for the 2010 Mac Pro...

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

There's no way Apple is withdrawing from the workstation market. To be honest, it's largely the consumers (of which I was one) who bought Mac Pros as mainly consumer units that were expecting a bit much. The Mac Pro is and always has been a *workstation* class machine.

Luckily for us, the first two generations of Mac Pro were priced very well compared to the competition, so much so that they weren't that much more expensive than consumer high end machines. There was a big difference between quad core and dual core back then. These days there isn't really that much between a Core i7 desktop and a Octo core Mac Pro.

A hyperthreaded i7 is great for the prosumer. Prosumers don't care about ECC. Apple has effectively shifted the prosumer machine from the Mac Pro to the 27" iMac. This means prosumers buy more machines instead of upgrade and spend all of their money on Apple stuff (i.e. the display is included in the cost).

However, the actual professionals out there will not be phased by the high price of the Mac Pros. High end video editors, for example, won't mind spending $5000 on a workstation since they work on high value jobs - the computer is probably one of the cheapest bits in their hardware arsenal. The big businesses who buy loads of machines won't care too much either - they'll get decent discounts anyway.

Prosumers have been lulled into thinking that they are actually who the Mac Pro was designed for thanks to the previous pricing levels. However, it is bulk purchasers such as these guys who actually matter. People like that and high end professionals.

Now don't get me wrong, I was furious that Apple increased their profit margins on the Nehalem Mac Pros by $1000+ over the previous generations. It meant that there was no way I could replace my 2006 Mac Pro. However, I'm a prosumer. Yes I use my machine for work but, to be honest, I could do what I do with far less. If I made $10k a month doing work on my Mac Pro then I'd be more of a professional and the upgrade cost to a new Mac Pro wouldn't bother me (that much).

 

[ncc1701d]

+1 for Spanky D.

 

[VirtualRain]

However, the actual professionals out there will not be phased by the high price of the Mac Pros. High end video editors, for example, won't mind spending $5000 on a workstation since they work on high value jobs - the computer is probably one of the cheapest bits in their hardware arsenal. The big businesses who buy loads of machines won't care too much either - they'll get decent discounts anyway.

Prosumers have been lulled into thinking that they are actually who the Mac Pro was designed for thanks to the previous pricing levels. However, it is bulk purchasers such as these guys who actually matter. People like that and high end professionals.

I completely agree, except I believe that more and more creative professionals are shifting a lot of their work to a high-end laptop. Even CAD work is done on laptops now. In actuality, there's very little creative work that can't be done on a high-end laptop with a 2nd external monitor. Except for rendering and encoding tasks, most software can barely use more than the HW in most laptops anyway and for those tasks, serious production houses would have render farms. I'm just sayin...

 

[nanofrog]

Agreed... I should have said I don't see much of a future for PCIe expansion cards/slots, but having said that, there will likely be as companies offer all these new technologies (SATA3, USB3, Light Peak, etc.) for older PC's.

Definitely.

BTW, here's the new mainboard for the 2010 Mac Pro...

We can dream....

Looks like a really nice board, and I'll have to check the spec page out.

There's no way Apple is withdrawing from the workstation market. However, the actual professionals out there will not be phased by the high price of the Mac Pros. High end video editors, for example, won't mind spending $5000 on a workstation since they work on high value jobs - the computer is probably one of the cheapest bits in their hardware arsenal. The big businesses who buy loads of machines won't care too much either - they'll get decent discounts anyway.

Only if the economics works out for Apple.

Workstations are going to begin to use the high end consumer processors (i.e. i7-9xx is the Xeon 35xx without ECC in terms of features), as the Xeons are going to have too many cores for the software. It's just too far behind, and the increasing core count is going to make that difference grow. We'll see the 2011 and 2012 MP's based on Xeon I think, but after that, I'm not so sure.

Now the MP could continue on, but the pricing will need to be competitive. More so than what happened with the '09's, as even large entities are watching what they spend in this economy from what I've seen and heard about. Purchases have slowed down or even ceased until they can aquire more cash on hand (profits have mostly been put into dividend payments). So they can't set asside as much as they did in the past for tech purchases.

Even OS X's software seems to be loosing it's appeal, as the Windows variants/equivalents apparently have better features/works better from those that have used it (3D applications, not a general statement).

If the software looses it's value, and the systems are too expensive, economics and needs will begin to force users to switch. Those that remain, or hang on the longest, may have to by necessity (i.e. too much invested in software to make the application switch).

If the systems do end up more competitive, then a dual boot or VM methodology will make sense.

But ultimately, if the MP market is too small, it won't matter. Economics will rule, as Apple's in business to make profits (OK, a small fortune per system), and the MP will wind up the way of the Dodo.

 

[JesterJJZ]

BTW, here's the new mainboard for the 2010 Mac Pro...

Oooh...

12 RAM slots
7 PCIe slots
8 SATA ports

WANT!

 

[Icaras]

But ultimately, if the MP market is too small, it won't matter. Economics will rule, as Apple's in business to make profits (OK, a small fortune per system), and the MP will wind up the way of the Dodo.

I was actually going to call the MP a dodo too in an earlier in this thread, but decided against it, haha.

 

[Full of Win]

Let's face it, we're all headed to the cloud sooner rather than later! Twenty, maybe as few as ten years from now we'll be able to pass stuff to/from the cloud at rates that are an order of magnitude faster than what today's hardware can deliver. All anybody will need then will be an input device (a virtual keyboard that can be mapped onto any surface) and some sort of 3D holographic display. Looking further down the road, even these will become obsolete when our brains get hooked up to the cloud directly. Yes folks, in the future reading someone else's mind will not be just a figure of speech. But I digress. I'm looking forward to getting a MP in 2012. Probably my second to last "computer".

Even an order of magnitude is not enough to touch the latency and speed of the CPU-to-storage link that exist today in desktop computers.

 

[ildondeigiocchi]

Agreed... I should have said I don't see much of a future for PCIe expansion cards/slots, but having said that, there will likely be as companies offer all these new technologies (SATA3, USB3, Light Peak, etc.) for older PC's.

BTW, here's the new mainboard for the 2010 Mac Pro...

That would be a dream come true. Especially if SLI were enabled in Windows.

 

[akadmon]

Even an order of magnitude is not enough to touch the latency and speed of the CPU-to-storage link that exist today in desktop computers.

I was not referring to network speeds (wireless or otherwise). What I was saying that is that we will be able to pass information to/from the cloud an order of magnitude faster than what what today's RAIDed SSDs are capable of. That said, it's pure science fiction on my part. I have no clue how this could be accomplished

 

[chet.d]

I hope for 1/27.

I hope there's a solid MP coming considering the 09 temps thing and less than desirable pricing.

I need a new machine bad (for recording studio purpose). The software I prefer as a DAW is Nuendo and notoriously better on a PC, In no small part due to Mac OS (hope that gets friendlier with HT issues).
I really don't want to do a switch to a custom PC (ie; ADK computers) for Nuendo as I own some Mac only Apogee hardware. Though they do seem like pretty stable and fast machines.
...so again, hope MP 2010 is impressive.

Also pcie is a must for many in audio due to the UAD powered plug ins card that is a solid mixing tool.

 

[minivi]

I'm waitting

sounds like a good phone but i will wait and see the reviews before i buy one.

 

[akadmon]

sounds like a good phone but i will wait and see the reviews before i buy one.

Wow, you must have really big hands! King Kong, is this you?

 

[Nostromo]

I hope there's a solid MP coming considering the 09 temps thing and less than desirable pricing.

This is the general chorus, and let's hope Apple didn't go deaf.

 

[ildondeigiocchi]

I hope for 1/27.

I hope there's a solid MP coming considering the 09 temps thing and less than desirable pricing.

I need a new machine bad (for recording studio purpose). The software I prefer as a DAW is Nuendo and notoriously better on a PC, In no small part due to Mac OS (hope that gets friendlier with HT issues).
I really don't want to do a switch to a custom PC (ie; ADK computers) for Nuendo as I own some Mac only Apogee hardware. Though they do seem like pretty stable and fast machines.
...so again, hope MP 2010 is impressive.

Also pcie is a must for many in audio due to the UAD powered plug ins card that is a solid mixing tool.

Let's hope they meet our 2010 Mac Pro Wishlist. I hope they continue offering 8 core models along with the dodecacore ones just at higher clocked speeds like 3.46GHZ.

 

[hwhalers]

Except for rendering and encoding tasks, most software can barely use more than the HW in most laptops anyway and for those tasks, serious production houses would have render farms.

There's a lot of shops that can't afford to be that 'serious'. Distributed computing is all well and good until you have to pay for the node licenses.

 

[Magaman]

Since I bought a Blackmagic Intensity card late last year, and my current PC doesn't have the horsepower for it I've been eagerly waiting a MP update. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an announcement at the coming event.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

You guys that think Apple is giving up the pro market forget one thing... Apple gets a TON of free publicity from people the system of choice for musicians and many in the pro video segment. It was a huge coup when FCP started to beat out Avid. Apple's not giving that up, and the reality is most pros modify their machines with the PCI card of choice. The MP is just a vessel.

If you look at the benchmarks the current low-end 4 core MP beats out (barely, but still) the top-end iMac i7. On top of that the iMac has a glossy screen which isn't useful in the pro world. The Xeon chips in the current MPs are the Xeon version of the i7, which of course was release months ahead of the i7 iMac.

I would expect (and counting on) new "Gulftown" based MPs around March/April. I also expect a new non-glossy 27" monitor to replace the current 30".

 

[ncc1701d]

I also expect a new non-glossy 27" monitor to replace the current 30".

+ 1 for that - especially if they have sorted out the 27" iMac screen issues.