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New Macbook - no Firewire!
- Thread starter Voodoophone
- Start date
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I have tried to find out if firewire over ethernet demands a special port, and unfortunately this seems the case.
From Wiki on Firewire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire#FireWire_S800T_.28IEEE_1394c-2006.29
A quick google seems to show there is no FW-to-Ethernet adaptor on the market at all, nothing that will let you plug a FW disk into an Ethernet port on your laptop.
There's plenty of Ethernet-to-USB adaptors out there (inc as sold by Apple for the MBA). These let you connect your laptop to an Ethernet through a USB port. Not what we're looking for.
I have to conclude that anyone wanting to use a new MB with any half decent camera is shafted. If Apple had enabled FW-over-ethernet, that would be stated loudly and clearly on the new MB page.
I was planning to buy 4 macbooks for work this week (we use video a fair bit) and now I'm stuck. I'm not keen on buying the white ones as they don't seem as futureproof, even if they're a fair bit cheaper. (our laptops need to last for 3 - 4 years)
From Wiki on Firewire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire#FireWire_S800T_.28IEEE_1394c-2006.29
A quick google seems to show there is no FW-to-Ethernet adaptor on the market at all, nothing that will let you plug a FW disk into an Ethernet port on your laptop.
There's plenty of Ethernet-to-USB adaptors out there (inc as sold by Apple for the MBA). These let you connect your laptop to an Ethernet through a USB port. Not what we're looking for.
I have to conclude that anyone wanting to use a new MB with any half decent camera is shafted. If Apple had enabled FW-over-ethernet, that would be stated loudly and clearly on the new MB page.
I was planning to buy 4 macbooks for work this week (we use video a fair bit) and now I'm stuck. I'm not keen on buying the white ones as they don't seem as futureproof, even if they're a fair bit cheaper. (our laptops need to last for 3 - 4 years)
I too was planning an getting a new macbook so I can do some teaching work with some of the kids that I work with, but the FW issue has scuppered me as I'm not paying the 50% premium to get the MBP.
Apple aim squarely at foot and shoot.
Apple aim squarely at foot and shoot.
Thanks. I think I got that memo already. What I was hinting at was that if they put a firewire port on a macbook with that kind of card, who would need a macbook pro? I use p2 cards all the time going into my mac pro but most of my work still comes from clients that use dv tape, which means ingesting over firewire. They just don't seem to trust anything else. Forget usb, that's crap and could result in drops and as far as an adapter goes, forget it.
They already had a firewire port on a macbook, they've only just took it off today! total cnuts.
I know you know that already, I'm just pointing out the obvious
EDIT: Maybe the rumours about Apple dropping FCS and other pro apps is true
The only problem with this comparison is that it was possible to buy an external floppy drive quite cheaply from several vendors and solve the problem. This is not the case here.
From my research, there is no adapter that exists that will do the job.
I need a new computer. I am not a pro, but I the two programs I use most are FCE and GarageBand.
Apple is effectively telling me that unless I scrap the two DV cameras I already own (one of which is less than 1 year old) and scrap my firewire audio interface, I cannot use a new Macbook, I have to get an Macbook Pro or an iMac.
I think having to pay a $700 premium or sacrifice portability to plug in external devices that are not that old is a travesty.
Apple needs to address this issue by either creating some sort of adapter that will allow DV cameras to connect to these new laptops or they need to introduce a 13.3 inch Macbook Pro that is less than $2000.
Either that, or let's hope a 3rd Party comes to the rescue here. I will probably go refurb or $999 new version so it is not a huge issue to me, but eventually the white Macbooks will be gone. Then what?
They already had a firewire port on a macbook, they've only just took it off today! total cnuts.
I know you know that already, I'm just pointing out the obvious
EDIT: Maybe the rumours about Apple dropping FCS and other pro apps is true
That wasn't directed at you. DH was telling me something I already knew. What's funny is that they can't say the same for the new macbooks. FC studio(including motion and color) will most likely run well on it.
I have three audio interfaces all powered by via firewire, so if firewire is on the out whats new for the audio world, I"m not downgrading to a USB interface
FireWire is not, repeat not on it's way out, for audio and video, prosumer or pro.
Companies like Apogee, MOTU, RME, Avid / Digidesign, Sony, Canon, Panasonic, just to name a few, it is the de facto standard in audio video and will be for quite some time.
I do not think these pro audio video devices will be replaced with USB 2 or 3 devices. I know one of the main guys at MOTU and if you notice, MOTU no longer makes a USB version of their 828 Mark3, etc, so I asked why, "it did not sell, no one wanted it, it sucked". There is your answer to the state of FireWire in the pro audio video world.
The absolute puzzle is why does Apple now feel FW no longer needs to be on the MacBook. There is space for it, it can not be too costly.
So, I just saw Jon Ive on today's event and he said something, "I don't know how we could have made the MacBook more simple", he said, "we are looking for ways to simplify the design, iow, take things away", and someone probably said, "hey how about that damn FW port, only prosumer audio video guys use that, lets get rid of it" (of course total BS).
Perhaps there is some third party answer, with FW over the ethernet RJ-45 jack, perhaps with CAT6 or fiber even, I sure hope so, because this MacBook is one of the the best notebooks I have ever seen from Apple (specs, design, price, performance) they could sell a ton of them, but this is the fly in the ointment.
Official response
Well I posted in another thread that Steve Jobs had emailed me back when I complained.
And before anyone says anything I know it won't be him, it'll be some representative towing the party line so to speak, and here for your reading pleasure is the thread in full, I think I've pissed off whoever I was emailing.
----
That may well be so, but that doesn't really help consumers who have invested in perfectly working DV equipment who are given the option of, reasonably priced mac notebook and new camera, expensive mac notebook keep old working camera, or cheap generic PC. And with belt buckles being tight all around the world that isn't a good scenario.
Plus what about all the educational facilities that teach FCP, many of my friends who went to film school were taught this program, and therefore got macs to use is on. I guess that alot of these schools are heavily invested in DV and HDV equipment that uses firewire. Many of these students won't have the money for a pro model notebook and may need firewire, so they could end up with a dodgy PC running Premiere Pro, and these are the people who in the years to come will be making the decision over what software and hardware to work on.
Audio institutes could follow the same route, advising their students to get a PC just because you can use the Digi003 or MTU 828 on there, something that is no longer possible on the entry level mac notebook.
Again just my opinion, and it's all getting a bit too nostrodamused for my own liking, but this lack of feature could have consequences in years to come.
Myca
On 14 Oct 2008, at 23:26, Steve Jobs wrote:
The new digital camcorders that use USB are quite superior to the prior generations and feature full HD sensors and digital video output.
Steve
On Oct 14, 2008, at 3:18 PM, Myca wrote:
Well thank you for possibly the most lamest of responses possible, I guess the fact that many new camcorders now using an inferior (and heavily compressed file format) USB interface won't bother the many many people who've invested in DV equipment.
"new camcorder and macbook, or mackbook pro, or something by the enemy at a third of the price that works with the equipment I own?"
And I'd hate to think of all those college students having to maybe switch to another NLE just to be able to upload content at an affordable price.
But meh, what do I know, I'm just an end user
On 14 Oct 2008, at 21:32, Steve Jobs wrote:
Most digital camcorders have switched to USB and many have already dropped Firewire.
Steve
On Oct 14, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Myca wrote:
Greetings Steve,
Well the geek in me just stopped what I was doing to check out the new notebooks, and what can I say but "Where's the FIrewire"
Part of me is thinking that maybe someone made a mistake somewhere and forgot to cross that off the checklist, or maybe there's some magical device in the new notebooks that allows the use of Firewire wirelessly.
Like my subject says, no Firewire no iLife.
So here's a few reason that I think someone's been spiking Apples Kool-Aid
1. What's the point of including iMovie if the end user cannot transfer video from their DV camcorder.
2. Target Disk mode (yeah I know USB, but not as good)
3. FCP and express, read 1
4. Transferring from an old mac, like say an iBook G4, gotta do it over the slower ethernet now, or get an external drive
I think that with dropping Firewire part of the, well I guess old school, creative market will be alienated and frustrated after alot have invested heavily in Hard Drives, Audio interfaces, Decks, all with FIrewire, and now we have to pay that extra special premium just for a few components that cost pennies.
I myself am a musician and Audio engineer, so I wouldn't touch another USB audio interface with a barge-pole, but come my next need of a notebook I'll have the choice taken from me and have to go MBP, when personally I like the form factor of the 13.3" MB.
Any way enough of my moaning, I best get back to doing some work, oh and by the way cheers for all the cool gear and software that's kept me busy.
P.S. does Applecare cover loss of hearing when previewing a processed mono file in Soundtrack Pro 2?, Yeah sorry the apps not ready for professional use yet, and it pains me to have to boot into Windows just to use a good wave editor, it's so close too
Yours flummoxed and bemused
Myca
Well I posted in another thread that Steve Jobs had emailed me back when I complained.
And before anyone says anything I know it won't be him, it'll be some representative towing the party line so to speak, and here for your reading pleasure is the thread in full, I think I've pissed off whoever I was emailing.
----
That may well be so, but that doesn't really help consumers who have invested in perfectly working DV equipment who are given the option of, reasonably priced mac notebook and new camera, expensive mac notebook keep old working camera, or cheap generic PC. And with belt buckles being tight all around the world that isn't a good scenario.
Plus what about all the educational facilities that teach FCP, many of my friends who went to film school were taught this program, and therefore got macs to use is on. I guess that alot of these schools are heavily invested in DV and HDV equipment that uses firewire. Many of these students won't have the money for a pro model notebook and may need firewire, so they could end up with a dodgy PC running Premiere Pro, and these are the people who in the years to come will be making the decision over what software and hardware to work on.
Audio institutes could follow the same route, advising their students to get a PC just because you can use the Digi003 or MTU 828 on there, something that is no longer possible on the entry level mac notebook.
Again just my opinion, and it's all getting a bit too nostrodamused for my own liking, but this lack of feature could have consequences in years to come.
Myca
On 14 Oct 2008, at 23:26, Steve Jobs wrote:
The new digital camcorders that use USB are quite superior to the prior generations and feature full HD sensors and digital video output.
Steve
On Oct 14, 2008, at 3:18 PM, Myca wrote:
Well thank you for possibly the most lamest of responses possible, I guess the fact that many new camcorders now using an inferior (and heavily compressed file format) USB interface won't bother the many many people who've invested in DV equipment.
"new camcorder and macbook, or mackbook pro, or something by the enemy at a third of the price that works with the equipment I own?"
And I'd hate to think of all those college students having to maybe switch to another NLE just to be able to upload content at an affordable price.
But meh, what do I know, I'm just an end user
On 14 Oct 2008, at 21:32, Steve Jobs wrote:
Most digital camcorders have switched to USB and many have already dropped Firewire.
Steve
On Oct 14, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Myca wrote:
Greetings Steve,
Well the geek in me just stopped what I was doing to check out the new notebooks, and what can I say but "Where's the FIrewire"
Part of me is thinking that maybe someone made a mistake somewhere and forgot to cross that off the checklist, or maybe there's some magical device in the new notebooks that allows the use of Firewire wirelessly.
Like my subject says, no Firewire no iLife.
So here's a few reason that I think someone's been spiking Apples Kool-Aid
1. What's the point of including iMovie if the end user cannot transfer video from their DV camcorder.
2. Target Disk mode (yeah I know USB, but not as good)
3. FCP and express, read 1
4. Transferring from an old mac, like say an iBook G4, gotta do it over the slower ethernet now, or get an external drive
I think that with dropping Firewire part of the, well I guess old school, creative market will be alienated and frustrated after alot have invested heavily in Hard Drives, Audio interfaces, Decks, all with FIrewire, and now we have to pay that extra special premium just for a few components that cost pennies.
I myself am a musician and Audio engineer, so I wouldn't touch another USB audio interface with a barge-pole, but come my next need of a notebook I'll have the choice taken from me and have to go MBP, when personally I like the form factor of the 13.3" MB.
Any way enough of my moaning, I best get back to doing some work, oh and by the way cheers for all the cool gear and software that's kept me busy.
P.S. does Applecare cover loss of hearing when previewing a processed mono file in Soundtrack Pro 2?, Yeah sorry the apps not ready for professional use yet, and it pains me to have to boot into Windows just to use a good wave editor, it's so close too
Yours flummoxed and bemused
Myca
I don't think you can, my bad, but I was misinformed in another thread by someone saying that you could, I've no way of testing though as all my macs have firewire, and I'll be damned if I'll buy a computer that hasn't.
"This is what you will have and you will like it."
This is another Black Day for Mac users.
Firewires days have been numbered since they got into bed with Intel.
I look with envy at all the hardware options available to PC users much as the people in the Eastern Bloc looked across the Berlin Wall.
Im tired of Apple giving with one hand and taking away with the other!
12″ Powerbook G4 scrapped despite huge popularity; iBook replaced with ONLY a glossy screen and a useless Intel graphics chip; Overpriced and frivolous MacBook Air introduced when everybody is crying out for a sub note book thats tough, fast and small.
IM SO FRUSTRATED that Apple just wont make the computers that I want to buy!
I know Apple wont care because theyre selling shed loads of computers but theyve really dropped the ball this time.
Perhaps its finally time to embrace Linux and REALLY wear a Think Different shirt.
This is another Black Day for Mac users.
Firewires days have been numbered since they got into bed with Intel.
I look with envy at all the hardware options available to PC users much as the people in the Eastern Bloc looked across the Berlin Wall.
Im tired of Apple giving with one hand and taking away with the other!
12″ Powerbook G4 scrapped despite huge popularity; iBook replaced with ONLY a glossy screen and a useless Intel graphics chip; Overpriced and frivolous MacBook Air introduced when everybody is crying out for a sub note book thats tough, fast and small.
IM SO FRUSTRATED that Apple just wont make the computers that I want to buy!
I know Apple wont care because theyre selling shed loads of computers but theyve really dropped the ball this time.
Perhaps its finally time to embrace Linux and REALLY wear a Think Different shirt.
This is another Black Day for Mac users.
Firewires days have been numbered since they got into bed with Intel.
I look with envy at all the hardware options available to PC users much as the people in the Eastern Bloc looked across the Berlin Wall.
Im tired of Apple giving with one hand and taking away with the other!
12″ Powerbook G4 scrapped despite huge popularity; iBook replaced with ONLY a glossy screen and a useless Intel graphics chip; Overpriced and frivolous MacBook Air introduced when everybody is crying out for a sub note book thats tough, fast and small.
IM SO FRUSTRATED that Apple just wont make the computers that I want to buy!
I know Apple wont care because theyre selling shed loads of computers but theyve really dropped the ball this time.
Perhaps its finally time to embrace Linux and REALLY wear a Think Different shirt.
Yeah I'm miffed about their recent hardware, the problem is I'm heavily invested in Logic, and to be fair even though I have to use Windows for certain things, OS X is so much more graceful, if only there was viable audio software on linux, I've played with Ubuntu and liked what I saw.
Can't agree more with the people here. I have an 828mkII , I need firewire. I wanted to upgrade to the new macbooks that where comming. But no FW => no buy, I'm not going to spend 1000 USD to get 0.4 more ghz , a graphic card that I won't use , more weight ( because I carry my macbook a lot ), and my damn fire wire port.
Sorry steve , but I won't do it this time, and I people I know , are not buying this time. It's a real shame what happened , I expected this kind of marketing from other companies like microsoft or I don't know...
I have been a mac user since 1985... and this is crap.
Will wait, to see if they add firewire somehow.
Can't believe you can get the port for 900 dollars from the white macbook and you can't get it paying 1300.
Sorry, I'm really pissed off with this, needed to express myself.
Sorry steve , but I won't do it this time, and I people I know , are not buying this time. It's a real shame what happened , I expected this kind of marketing from other companies like microsoft or I don't know...
I have been a mac user since 1985... and this is crap.
Will wait, to see if they add firewire somehow.
Can't believe you can get the port for 900 dollars from the white macbook and you can't get it paying 1300.
Sorry, I'm really pissed off with this, needed to express myself.
spectacular own goal
As Myca and others have pointed out, there are numerous reasons to keep firewire on Macbooks. Sure, maybe the "average consumer" won't use it, but a lot of folk will, and as we should all be well aware by now, USB is at best an inferior substitute, or in many cases, no substitute at all.
Personally I'm disappointed, as i have numerous firewire devices and would have liked to buy one of these (otherwise great looking) laptops. However, faced with the prospect of having to trade in my firewire audio interface, firewire scanner, and all 4 of my firewire hard drives for expensive new usb devices that aren't as good, hmmm, let me see... No thanks. Guess I'll probably be buying something refurbed or second hand then.
What i find most galling about this though, is that for years ubiquitous firewire on macs has been one of the design advantages of the platform. Everyone who uses it knows how much better it is than usb, and even those folks who don't use it - well, when their mac packs up and they get their mac-savvy pal to come round and have a look, they'll get their machine sorted out or their precious data retrieved using firewire target disk mode. Why can't Apple stay a little truer to the hordes of it's long term supporters who love and use this technology? Why not take it forward with firewire S3200. Sure there are no devices supporting that yet, but with the kind of installed base they would get from putting it on all new macs, it would gain favour quickly. (Blu-ray only won the format war against DVD-HD because Sony managed to get an installed base in place by putting it in the PS3.) Would it really hurt Apple to be a bit strategic occasionally?
Taking firewire away from Macbooks is short-sighted in the extreme. And for what? To try to squeeze a few more bucks out of the Apples most loyal long term customers by forcing them to buy a Macbook Pro? Really very silly.
Can we have a re-think please?
As Myca and others have pointed out, there are numerous reasons to keep firewire on Macbooks. Sure, maybe the "average consumer" won't use it, but a lot of folk will, and as we should all be well aware by now, USB is at best an inferior substitute, or in many cases, no substitute at all.
Personally I'm disappointed, as i have numerous firewire devices and would have liked to buy one of these (otherwise great looking) laptops. However, faced with the prospect of having to trade in my firewire audio interface, firewire scanner, and all 4 of my firewire hard drives for expensive new usb devices that aren't as good, hmmm, let me see... No thanks. Guess I'll probably be buying something refurbed or second hand then.
What i find most galling about this though, is that for years ubiquitous firewire on macs has been one of the design advantages of the platform. Everyone who uses it knows how much better it is than usb, and even those folks who don't use it - well, when their mac packs up and they get their mac-savvy pal to come round and have a look, they'll get their machine sorted out or their precious data retrieved using firewire target disk mode. Why can't Apple stay a little truer to the hordes of it's long term supporters who love and use this technology? Why not take it forward with firewire S3200. Sure there are no devices supporting that yet, but with the kind of installed base they would get from putting it on all new macs, it would gain favour quickly. (Blu-ray only won the format war against DVD-HD because Sony managed to get an installed base in place by putting it in the PS3.) Would it really hurt Apple to be a bit strategic occasionally?
Taking firewire away from Macbooks is short-sighted in the extreme. And for what? To try to squeeze a few more bucks out of the Apples most loyal long term customers by forcing them to buy a Macbook Pro? Really very silly.
Can we have a re-think please?
^^^^^^
What he said, in fact one of the reasons that Firewire and USB kicked off was due to Apple implementing them before there were many devices that worked with them, so 3rd parties had to make the peripherals, and then PC manufacturers followed suit. So why can't Apple do the same with the higher speed Firewire.
What he said, in fact one of the reasons that Firewire and USB kicked off was due to Apple implementing them before there were many devices that worked with them, so 3rd parties had to make the peripherals, and then PC manufacturers followed suit. So why can't Apple do the same with the higher speed Firewire.
and another thing...
I also notice that the Macbook Pro only has a single firewire port. Meaning that you can't connect 2 firewire devices simultaneously (unless they have a dual port "daisy chain" facility, which not all of them do). Another spanner in the works of a perfectly good way of doing things. A downgrade in fact.
And let's not forget there's no USB3 spec agreed yet. And even when there is, there's no guarantee it'll be any good.
I'm just praying Apple has the good grace to admit it's made a mistake - as it did when it removed firewire 800 from the original Macbook Pros.
I also notice that the Macbook Pro only has a single firewire port. Meaning that you can't connect 2 firewire devices simultaneously (unless they have a dual port "daisy chain" facility, which not all of them do). Another spanner in the works of a perfectly good way of doing things. A downgrade in fact.
And let's not forget there's no USB3 spec agreed yet. And even when there is, there's no guarantee it'll be any good.
I'm just praying Apple has the good grace to admit it's made a mistake - as it did when it removed firewire 800 from the original Macbook Pros.
New MacCrippled lapbooks
I have burnt out several firewire ports in my time, so I suppose by leaving them off, Apple improves its reliability statistics.
Likewise, Ford could leave the wheels off its cars to reduce the number of punctures.
Like Firewire or not, its essential for me. I have two Macs here in the cupboard that I dont use because the firewire port is blown. Apart from that they work fine. The horrible truth is that for me a Mac without firewire is useless.
Yes, there is one Firewire 800 port on the Macbook Pro, but only one. I would not pay 800 dollars or so extra just to get only one port, far too risky. I can do better things with that money.
So, what a disappointing day. I'll have to continue using my old Macs whose firewire ports do work, and when they die I'll just buy more old Macs on eBay.
I sure hope Apple don't do the same when they renew the desktop Macs. It would mean me changing permanently to some other brand of computer after using Macs since 1986
Why would they put faster video cards into machines and then leave the video input ports off.
Peeded off and protesting.
I have burnt out several firewire ports in my time, so I suppose by leaving them off, Apple improves its reliability statistics.
Likewise, Ford could leave the wheels off its cars to reduce the number of punctures.
Like Firewire or not, its essential for me. I have two Macs here in the cupboard that I dont use because the firewire port is blown. Apart from that they work fine. The horrible truth is that for me a Mac without firewire is useless.
Yes, there is one Firewire 800 port on the Macbook Pro, but only one. I would not pay 800 dollars or so extra just to get only one port, far too risky. I can do better things with that money.
So, what a disappointing day. I'll have to continue using my old Macs whose firewire ports do work, and when they die I'll just buy more old Macs on eBay.
I sure hope Apple don't do the same when they renew the desktop Macs. It would mean me changing permanently to some other brand of computer after using Macs since 1986
Why would they put faster video cards into machines and then leave the video input ports off.
Peeded off and protesting.
This is another Black Day for Mac users.
Firewires days have been numbered since they got into bed with Intel.
I look with envy at all the hardware options available to PC users much as the people in the Eastern Bloc looked across the Berlin Wall.
Im tired of Apple giving with one hand and taking away with the other!
12″ Powerbook G4 scrapped despite huge popularity; iBook replaced with ONLY a glossy screen and a useless Intel graphics chip; Overpriced and frivolous MacBook Air introduced when everybody is crying out for a sub note book thats tough, fast and small.
IM SO FRUSTRATED that Apple just wont make the computers that I want to buy!
I know Apple wont care because theyre selling shed loads of computers but theyve really dropped the ball this time.
Perhaps its finally time to embrace Linux and REALLY wear a Think Different shirt.
I'm thinking the exact same thing.
It's like they don't want us to buy the computers.
Absolutely agreed. I'm very disappointed to hear Apple removed it from the MacBook.
I just bought a refurb version of the MacBook Pro about two generations ago (the one just before the first multi-touch trackpad). I'm now glad I did.
Buy a nice refurb MB/MBP while you can!
Even if Steve thinks that Flash based camcorders are "superior", what about FW hard drives? No one edits on their boot drive, you always have a scratch disk on a FW connection.
This is lame. Even the one FW port on the MBP is total crap. Ingesting AVC-Intra over USB is a bad experiance. I don't like daisy chaining because I've had problems with reliability in the past. This is just bad business, taking away stuff and not making up for it.
And don't even get me started about Blu-Ray. Apple is dropping the ball big time.
This is lame. Even the one FW port on the MBP is total crap. Ingesting AVC-Intra over USB is a bad experiance. I don't like daisy chaining because I've had problems with reliability in the past. This is just bad business, taking away stuff and not making up for it.
And don't even get me started about Blu-Ray. Apple is dropping the ball big time.
They just lost a sale here, I have a relatively new Canon HV20 (great because I can still play my older miniDV tapes with it), I've been holding onto my 1st gen MacBook waiting patiently for the update to come. There's no way I'm spending more for features I dont need on a MBP that's too big to fit in my travel bag.
If anyone remembers the original iBooks, there was a Firewire spot on the board, and it was later added to them. I believe some people were able to solder the socket onto the boards and enable it. I wonder if there's an unused spot on the board for FW. I'm sure we'll see some disassembly pics soon enough.
If anyone remembers the original iBooks, there was a Firewire spot on the board, and it was later added to them. I believe some people were able to solder the socket onto the boards and enable it. I wonder if there's an unused spot on the board for FW. I'm sure we'll see some disassembly pics soon enough.