New Macbook - no Firewire!

[maxrobertson]

It's pretty infuriating. Lack of FireWire is one of the reasons I switched to the Mac in the first place. Now a thousand dollar laptop can't do something a 400 dollar PC can do. What the hell is up with that? Wasn't it the whole point of the Mac for the past few years to be able to edit all of your media? Well, now I can't edit videos.

And there are some USB camcorders that are coming out lately, but they are unsupported or only supported by the newest version of iMovie, which is totally useless. Plus, why on earth would I want to buy a totally new, expensive camcorder when my old expensive one still works just fine? I'm a student and I can't afford that kind of expense, which means I wouldn't be buying a new MacBook any time soon, but I'm really annoyed with this. There's no reason they couldn't have included FireWire on the MacBook.

Anyway, all I can think is for people to speak with their wallets. If you aren't satisfied with the MacBook, buy used. Don't play into their game and get distracted by the shiny and settle for the Macbook or upgrade to the Pro. Just buy a used MBP or such on eBay. If Apple has a brick on their hands that no one wants, they WILL listen.

 

[Voodoophone]

Ok, let’s get a couple of things straight.

Lets cut out the abuse Voodoophone. Perhaps we can have a adult conversation. Rather than throw mud.

Secondly I've been using macs for over 15 years have been using DV for about 5 of those, so I believe that gives me an opinion.

Perhaps I was a little blunt before but really you have to understand that things move on. CRTs-->LCD's, Floppy --> Memory sticks, System 7/8/9 --> OS X. We've all coped up to now and I'm sure that Apple have a good reason for removing the Firewire from the Macbook. Perhaps they believe (as perhaps I do) that if you are a "Pro"sumer as someone mentioned earlier then you would be better off with the MBP. Perhaps that’s why they've added 2 graphics cards to these machines. I bet they can render transitions and encode DV->which ever format you'd like faster than you'd ever need.

So whilst I understand that there are some people who still use tape and of those they *have* to have the ability copy sections of the DV rather than the whole file, those people can do three things.

1) Buy a new camera
2) Buy a MBP
3) Buy another company’s offering.

Of which I'd bet Apple had hoped you'd do the 1 or 2 but if you did 3 then great for them because (again as someone mentioned earlier) their overall manufacturing costs are probably reduced and their margins are therefore probably better without the firewire and so they are making more money from the units they sell rather than the one they don't.

So surely you'd agree that a thread bitching about something you can't fix is probably a waste of time? That’s all I wanted to say. No offence meant to anyone concerned.

Firstly, if you come onto a thread and have nothing constructive to say, then say nothing. Whingeing about complaints is just plain stupid.
Glad to see you're actually making a point now.

Secondly, public opinion drives change (and yes I have left apple feedback and sent emails to all and sundry at apple with my issue - may do no good, but at least I have the right to my opinion)

How I love your options:
1) spend more money than you planned to a month ago
2) spend more money than you planned to a month ago
3) get a whole new different system, but need new software and spend more money than you planned to a month ago.

Genius.

Simply put, apple have removed any form of choice from users. And that stinks.

 

[Courtaj]

So whilst I understand that there are some people who still use tape and of those they *have* to have the ability copy sections of the DV rather than the whole file, those people can do three things.

1) Buy a new camera
2) Buy a MBP
3) Buy another company’s offering.

Or, being pragmatic, stick with what you have if you reach the conclusion that the alternative is worse.

You think this is a helluva predicament? Spare a thought for those of us who've been delaying buying a Mac Mini for the past 12 months while waiting for an update . . . (cue uproarous laughter).

Has anyone (recently) tried capturing DV via USB just to see how it works on modern systems?

Doesn't work. USB is for low quality video or stills on nearly all DV-based camcorders.

 

[Consultant]

From MacWorld:

-------
Migration and Target Disk Mode

The new MacBook, like the MacBook Air, lacks a FireWire port entirely. What this means is that the old laptop data-transfer standby known as Target Disk Mode—enabled by holding down the T key upon startup, allowing your laptop’s hard drive to appear as an external hard drive when plugged in to another computer—is gone. And there’s no USB equivalent of Target Disk Mode. What this means is, if you’re using Apple’s Migration Assistant to move your data to the new MacBook, you’ll have to transfer your data over the network from your other computer. (The fastest solution: attach via an Ethernet cable and do it direct at full speed.)

 

[terkwong]

maybe we all need to send a feedback form to Apple to register to them that this is all a big mistake!

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Firewire all the way!!!

 

[notjustjay]

Doesn't work. USB is for low quality video or stills on nearly all DV-based camcorders.

That's exactly what all the existing Firewire-camera-using folks keep saying, and people who don't use them aren't grasping (everyone who says "just use the USB ports!")

Some DV camcorders do come with USB ports. But they are NOT for transferring DV video! They're for transferring still photos from the memory stick, or for capturing webcam-quality video at lower resolution than was captured to the tape (aka USB streaming video).

It's just as well that I already have my previous-gen MBP, because if I was buying today, I certainly wouldn't buy a machine with no Firewire port. Maybe in the future, when I buy a nice HD camera with USB transfer, but for today, I have much more money invested in my Firewire equipment than I do in a computer to drive it all (two mid/high end Sony camcorders which cost thousands, Firewire hard drives, and so on), so to say "just buy one of the newer cameras with USB" is not only not an option for me, it's downright insulting.

 

[motuman]

Yes. You are very correct.

The real problem rests in capturing footage through FW while also needing to capture to an external drive.

Understood, but keep in mind Apple officially does not support, FW capture from the DV camera then to a FW drive. Even though it may be possible, especially from FW 400 to a FW 800 device, since the FW 800 is a totally independent bus and will not affect the FW 400 transfer rate, etc.

I used to work at Apple on the FCP QA team, our official stance was and I believe still is today, Apple (and FCP) does not support FW capture from the DV camera and then to a FW drive.

 

[bsrolston]

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Apple in the past has done an incredible job of listening to their consumers. I think we should all send a quick little note.

Then....cross fingers?

 

[pprior]

maybe we all need to send a feedback form to Apple to register to them that this is all a big mistake!

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

Firewire all the way!!!

Done.

I must say removing the firewire port on the macbook goes down as the most boneheaded move I've ever seen from Apple. There will be a LOT of backlash from new mac buyers at the low end who can't use Imovie, etc after the Christmas season comes.

Of course I wasn't following apple back in the Newton days, so I might have missed worse.

 

[2jaded2care]

No FireWire on new MBs. No FireWire 3200 on new MBPs. No Blu-Ray. No HDMI (except AppleTV)... No thanks.

Form elevated over function.

 

[wheelhot]

I send a feedback to Apple.
Here are my list of complaints and reasons.
1. No Firewire, students need it especially those who are in video related.
2. Placement of USB ports, the USB port is place together which could cause a problem when a thumbdrive is placed because some thumbdrive is design bigger which could cause the second USB port to be totally unusable. I do hope Apple will increase the distance between the USB ports.
3. Glossy display, well it looks nice, Apple need to do something about the reflection, I suggest to put a anti-reflective display because the most common problem that people complain about glossy display is the reflection it produces so a anti-reflective display should be used. Cause Im sure sticking a layer of sticker to prevent reflection is not as nice as having a anti-reflective glass

Give the same feedbacks as mine and lets hope Apple take notice

 

[danny_w]

I certainly will not be upgrading to the new Macbook without firewire. As many others have said, I don't have any intention of going out and buying a new camera. Reminds me of the same issue that I have had all along with the TV that many people on this forum have poo-poohed: no 4:3 support. Again, I have no intention of replacing my perfectly satisfactory analog 4:3 tv that cost me $3000 several years ago; an equivalent widescreen with the same vertical dimensions takes up more room than I have and would set me back about $4-5k. No thanks, Apple.

 

[motuman]

Well I posted in another thread that Steve Jobs had emailed me back when I complained.

On 14 Oct 2008, at 23:26, Steve Jobs wrote:

"The new digital camcorders that use USB are quite superior to the prior generations and feature full HD sensors and digital video output".

Steve


SJ knows completely that this is total BS, and it insults our intelligence.

These cameras totally suck. Here is what he is referring to:

- these cameras are hard drive based (not bad exactly)
- these cameras are usually SD and not HD
- these cameras use USB to transfer your video file (not log and capture it), big difference
- these cameras do not allow "device control", controlling the camera from FCP or iMovie, for example
- the media file is MPEG-2, not AVCHD (H.264), MPEG-2 is dead
- Neither Final Cut Pro (nor iMovie I believe) can edit MPEG-2 in the timeline, why would one?

MPEG-2 is a compressed playback / deliverable format, and one that is dying, dead on its way out, enough said.

So true timeline editing is not going to happen, one would have to use MPEG StreamClip or Avidemux to edit the MPEG-2 file, and very basic at that, one in point, one out and that is it.

So SJ would have us believe

- USB is better than FW for audio video
- hard disk cameras are better than tape for media transfer / storage
- MEPG-2 is better than AVCHD (H.264), HDV
- Copying the hour long plus MPEG-2 file and frankenstein editing this one long clip is better than "log and capturing" or just capturing the media in and and outs I want (huge time saver)

Trust me these USB cameras totally blow if one wants to to do any editing, even basic editing, stay away from them

So we do not buy the BS

FW must be present, period

 

[motuman]

If you mean the sub-$1000 price range, then I'm calling bollocks here.

There are a bunch of great tapeless camcorders that are fully compatible with the Mac, with pictures comparable if not superior to the HV30.

I'm just so sick of hearing this sh*t. If you like tape, great. Just don't expect everyone else to.

Jeez.

But back on topic: NO FIREWIRE? F*** ME!

Oh really, please enlighten me on the USB only, tape or tapeless, superior cameras, that are "superior" to the HV30 /HDV, that also do log and capture and device control over USB?

Nada, not one.

I do pro video for a living dude, I know. And if you want to talk about pro stuff, XDCAM HD, Canon XH-A1, Panasonic DVX-100 P2, yeah, all Firewire.

Do you know what P2 drives cost 1500 bucks for 100 GB's, a total racket and joke.

Get my point, its not the tapeless, its the USB thats the issue (no FW)

But concerning tape, tape is still here to stay, cheap and easy capture and storage medium

 

[danny_w]

But concerning tape, tape is still here to stay, cheap and easy capture and storage medium

The same can be said for enterprise data backup. People have been predicting the demise of tape for data backup for years now, and the tape drives and libraries just keep getting bigger and cheaper (per data unit, that is).

 

[Courtaj]

I do pro video for a living dude, I know. And if you want to talk about pro stuff, XDCAM HD, Canon XH-A1, Panasonic DVX-100 P2, yeah, all Firewire.

Yeah. We were discussing sub-$1000 cameras, not "pro stuff." So get yer hand off it.

 

[bigbossbmb]

MEPG-2 is better than AVCHD (H.264), HDV

AVCHD cameras don't shoot to tape... they are all file-based and use USB.

HDV is MPEG-2. HDV is just MPEG-2 written to tape.

Now I agree that FW must be present, but actually it's more necessary for connecting an FW hard drive to store the media on.

 

[notjustjay]

Well, if nothing else, these discussions will help me short-list what my next camcorder ought to be. If AVCHD is worthwhile, I could give that a try, if not, then I'll keep looking...

 

[motuman]

AVCHD cameras don't shoot to tape... they are all file-based and use USB.

HDV is MPEG-2. HDV is just MPEG-2 written to tape.

Now I agree that FW must be present, but actually it's more necessary for connecting an FW hard drive to store the media on.

That is correct and I do stand corrected. HDV is MPEG-2, but the HD spec, HDV1 = 720p = MP@HL, HDV2 = 1080i = MP@H-14.

I still believe MPEG-2 is a deprecated compressed format and MPEG-4 part 10 (H.264) is the future (and even the present).

 

[sigismundspikul]

If anyone remembers the original iBooks, there was a Firewire spot on the board, and it was later added to them. I believe some people were able to solder the socket onto the boards and enable it. I wonder if there's an unused spot on the board for FW. I'm sure we'll see some disassembly pics soon enough.

Interesting, It looks like the most important developments to look out for here are:
1) Ability to add a FW port to the computer by screwing around with it.
2) If someone can confirm that the Ethernet Adapter works for pro video and pro audio capture
3) If someone can confirm that the USB to Firewire Cable works for pro video and pro audio capture.

I know there is a lot of whining about this and people going back and forth on this, but I only have a few more things to add:

1) Almost every single touring musician I know, on a major label or an indie label, has a macbook. Life is tough if your a musician these days, you'll still be flat broke after selling 200,000 records and $700 for a firewire port isn't invisible money coming from the record label anymore its $700 of gas for the econoline, or food for the per diem, or paying back debt to the merch company so you can get another run of shirts printed. These people are trendsetters and have been inadvertently advertising apple to untold teens and college students because every ****ing time they are backstage or in the van or even on tv they are on their macbook.

2) The creative community, and the idea of creatively enabling the average person has been the lifeblood of the macintosh brand.

3) XDCAM and other solid state formats are far from becoming the norm. I'm just finishing a project where I rented 6 xdcams for a concert film, and the footage is phenomenal, but one of my cards corrupted and I'm still trying to get that footage repaired from sony broadcast to little avail. The last 2 months I've been nervous as hell that something is going to happen to my hard drives or the data and I'll have no backup for a shoot that can't be recreated and cost a little under $20,000 for the night. The import process was kinda a pain too, I mean it took WEEKS for me to take my 24 hours of XDCAM footage and convert it to Pro Res 4:2:2, something that would have only been 2 days of work for a tape-based workflow. In short on the pro level solid state just isn't THERE yet, the cards are still ridiculously expensive, the reliability isn't as PERFECT as a pro-format needs to be, and the comfort zone certainly isn't there. Who knows tho, maybe scarlet will change all of this next year.

4) The macbook has always been a more than adequate substitute for the budget conscious in both music and film, which is the vast majority. Incredible looking videos are being shot today on HV20's and edited on macbooks, incredible songs today are being demo'd in the tour van and practice space with logic and a good audio interface. Nothing will overshadow the fact that firewire is a huge loss to the all around reliable number one computer for indie-pro's in all avenues of the creative arts.

I'm a macbook pro person myself, so all I'm hoping for is that this isn't a sign that apple is abandoning the format all together in the next generations, because then I'd have to buy a PC laptop and hack OSX onto it.

 

[electricfiddle]

I know there is a lot of whining about this and people going back and forth on this, but I only have a few more things to add:

1) Almost every single touring musician I know, on a major label or an indie label, has a macbook. Life is tough if your a musician these days, you'll still be flat broke after selling 200,000 records and $700 for a firewire port isn't invisible money coming from the record label anymore its $700 of gas for the econoline, or food for the per diem, or paying back debt to the merch company so you can get another run of shirts printed.

I was on the road toruing for 2 years... I couldn't agree with you more!

 

[disagree]

Absurd decision by Apple. Saves me money, though, since I was going to buy a new MacBook, but now I will not.

 

[tonytnnt]

Taken directly from Apple's website on Firewire (http://developer.apple.com/hardwaredrivers/firewire/index.html)

FireWire is one of the fastest peripheral standards ever developed, which makes it great for use with multimedia peripherals such as digital video cameras and other high-speed devices like the latest hard disk drives and printers.

and later...

Major manufacturers of multimedia devices have been adopting the FireWire technology, and for good reason. FireWire speeds up the movement of multimedia data and large files and enables easy connection of digital consumer products -- including digital camcorders, digital video tapes, digital video disks, set-top boxes, and music systems -- directly to a personal computer.

So, pray tell, why is Firewire absent from Macs again? Looks like somebody needs to update their Website to reflect current propaganda...

 

[NeoMayhem]

It is pretty stupid that they got rid of firewire on the macbook. This is even worse then having a crap graphics card in the old macbooks to make the pro model more appealing. Firewire was always a lot better then USB for most tasks, and it sucks that they are killing it off to get on Intels good side.

 

[JCafaro]

Absurd decision by Apple. Saves me money, though, since I was going to buy a new MacBook, but now I will not.

Me too. I saved over $500 and bought a refurbished 2.4 macbook with 2 gigs of ram, and a firewire port. Way to give the video world the middle finger. I bet they remove the firewire port from the mini. They don't want to give FCP users a cheap second computer to use to digitize footage.