new MacBook Pro keyboard

[Dave245]

Remember, the fix keyboard 4 year program, INCLUDES already the 2019 model....so Apple somehow official is telling you that isn't fixed and under some circumstances your keyboard can fail

It could be that they are standing by the keyboard, including it into the program this early means that they are confident they have fixed the issue. Time will tell if they have fixed it or not.

 

[fokmik]

If they were confident about their products, Apple would give us 4 years warranty for the entire thing, not just for the keyboard

 

[Dave245]

If they were confident about their products, Apple would give us 4 years warranty for the entire thing, not just for the keyboard

What? The keyboard is where the issues are at. They have given 4 years of coverage from the day of sale, in these new 2019 MacBook Pro’s they changed the material in the butterfly keyboard and those having issues with the 2017 and 2018 keyboards, will get the new one with the new materials.

Yes it sucks, yes Apple should of fixed it before (although my guess is they were investigating the issues and coming up with a fix). Let’s hope they have finally fixed the issue.

 

[fokmik]

new material for what? the outcome is the same since apple is also putting the 2019 model in the keyboard program !
They clearly says that
"Apple said they changed the material in the keyboard's butterfly mechanism that should substantially reduce problems that some users have seen" The key word here is substantially , so not eliminate or something else
So when you put even your just released with "new bulllshit material and your stament is that....its clear the 2019 is also a failure

 

[Donnation]

What? The keyboard is where the issues are at. They have given 4 years of coverage from the day of sale, in these new 2019 MacBook Pro’s they changed the material in the butterfly keyboard and those having issues with the 2017 and 2018 keyboards, will get the new one with the new materials.

Yes it sucks, yes Apple should of fixed it before (although my guess is they were investigating the issues and coming up with a fix). Let’s hope they have finally fixed the issue.

Did they actually say that the ones brought in for repair would get the new materials or that they would jus fix them?

 

[Dave245]

new material for what? the outcome is the same since apple is also putting the 2019 model in the keyboard program !
They clearly says that
"Apple said they changed the material in the keyboard's butterfly mechanism that should substantially reduce problems that some users have seen" The key word here is substantially , so not eliminate or something else
So when you put even your just released with "new bulllshit material and your stament is that....its clear the 2019 is also a failure

The new material to fix the keyboard issue. You are focusing to much on the wording of the statement, the problem is that Apple can’t come out and say “we fixed the keyboard” because it would open them up to lawsuits if even 1 person then had an issue.

Saying “it’s clear the 2019 is also a failure” is just wrong, it’s not clear at all because no one as tested them yet! The keyboard issue could very well be fixed. Don’t jump the gun until there is evidence that the 2019 keyboards have the same issue.

 

[StralyanPithecus]

The new material to fix the keyboard issue. You are focusing to much on the wording of the statement, the problem is that Apple can’t come out and say “we fixed the keyboard” because it would open them up to lawsuits if even 1 person then had an issue.

Saying “it’s clear the 2039 is also a failure” is just wrong, it’s not clear at all because no one as tested them yet! The keyboard issue could very well be fixed. Don’t jump the gun until there is evidence that the 2019 keyboards have the same issue.

I will not be Apple hardware beta tester, sorry but too expensive to play games around.

 

[Dave245]

Did they actually say that the ones brought in for repair would get the new materials or that they would jus fix them?

Apple have said they will add the new materials to the older machines that have the third gen keyboard. So last years MacBook Pro’s and the new Air.

“Some current MacBook Pro 13-inch with Touch Bar and 15-inch customers that bring in their keyboards for repair will actually have their keyboards replaced with ones that have these new materials, Apple says. That will only happen for MacBooks that have the third-generation butterfly keyboard today: the 2018 models of the MacBook Pro and the new MacBook Air.”

Link to where I read it https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...-keyboard-problems-apple-repair-new-materials
[doublepost=1558535867][/doublepost]

I will not be Apple hardware beta tester, sorry but too expensive to play games around.

You could and see if issues start to occur from those that have brought the new MacBook Pro’s.

My guess is that they started to investigate the issue a while back, and they needed to get a fix for it, the fix is finally here in the 2019 version.

I’m not saying it is fixed, to know that we will have to wait and see what happens. They really need to have fixed it.

 

[fokmik]

The new material to fix the keyboard issue. You are focusing to much on the wording of the statement, the problem is that Apple can’t come out and say “we fixed the keyboard” because it would open them up to lawsuits if even 1 person then had an issue.

Saying “it’s clear the 2019 is also a failure” is just wrong, it’s not clear at all because no one as tested them yet! The keyboard issue could very well be fixed. Don’t jump the gun until there is evidence that the 2019 keyboards have the same issue.

yea, i bet you said that even when the 2018 3rd gen came out right?
No, from legal stand point, this is clear to be covered ,if they said they fixed entirely the issue, than every person with the issue could sue for a refund even after the warranty. At least this is the law in East EU and West EU
Again this is physics, when an dust particle has a thickness of a half of mm, and your whole travel key is around 0.8mm...there is not more to say
[doublepost=1558536265][/doublepost]

You could and see if issues start to occur from those that have brought the new MacBook Pro’s.

So a lot less people...who even can trust them now?! people now are waiting for the redesign not for this silent update
[doublepost=1558536380][/doublepost]Dave245 so you bought this one ?
I bet ifixit will drop some particle of dust like they did for the 2018....the result will be the same, dust+very low travel=issue. Remember they couldn't seal the 2018 keyboard, and if that didn't work...a new material is useless here. They should focus on making DUST PROOF not new material...
Or, maybe i am wrong and the new material is in fact the sealing one, lets hope, but i doubt

 

[Dave245]

yea, i bet you said that even when the 2018 3rd gen came out right?
No, from legal stand point, this is clear to be covered ,if they said they fixed entirely the issue, than every person with the issue could sue for a refund even after the warranty. At least this is the law in East EU and West EU
Again this is physics, when an dust particle has a thickness of a half of mm, and your whole travel key is around 0.8mm...there is not more to say
[doublepost=1558536265][/doublepost]

So a lot less people...who even can trust them now?! people now are waiting for the redesign not for this silent update

No I didn’t, Apple didn’t claim to have fixed the issue with the 3rd gen. If Apple came out and said they have fixed the issue with the new materials for the keyboard, then if people have the issue it would cause trouble for Apple legally. We need to go off of evidence, the machines are not even in the hands of people yet. At least wait and see before claiming that this years version is also a failure.

A redesign would be nice, but it’s not happened and by the looks of it, it won’t be happened this year.

 

[fokmik]

A redesign would be nice, but it’s not happened and by the looks of it, it won’t be happened this year.

If doesn't happen this year, Apple will lose even more mac customers.
iPhone users buy less iphones, ipads are around the mac, only services are growing....but again, services are based almost on hardware, so if people will go android/windows, the services will drop as well
Apple, need HARD TO FOCUS AGAIN ON THE PRODUCTS, like Steve said. I know Tim was an account guy and thinks like one, no wonder Apple worth almost 1 trillion, but this can break very quickly these days
Apple just need to do a proper new MAC PRO, a proper macbooks, and they will buy against the trust of their customers

 

[LogicalApex]

Remember, the fix keyboard 4 year program, INCLUDES already the 2019 model....so Apple somehow official is telling you that isn't fixed and under some circumstances your keyboard can fail

Damned if you do and damned if you don't...

The keyboard has become such a concern I'd imagine the 2020 model will be added to it as well. Not as an admission of fault, but to help start restoring confidence in the brand. As I'd imagine people who have experienced the keyboard problems would be weary of trusting the limited warranty 1 year horizon until the new keyboards are "proven".

Honestly, it is a good sign from Apple IMHO that they are at least listening to their customers. Many other manufacturers would ignore entirely and offer no long term relief.

I'd imagine that as Apple gets this solved people who are persistently having this issue will be moved to newer machines with the fixes applied on a case by case basis to put it to bed entirely.

We'll see what the 2019 reports are like and what iFixIt shows us regarding the new "material".

 

[PhoneI]

After a few weeks of owning a 2018 MacBook Pro I really started to enjoy the keyboard. I now prefer it to the older style.

 

[LogicalApex]

yea, i bet you said that even when the 2018 3rd gen came out right?
No, from legal stand point, this is clear to be covered ,if they said they fixed entirely the issue, than every person with the issue could sue for a refund even after the warranty. At least this is the law in East EU and West EU
Again this is physics, when an dust particle has a thickness of a half of mm, and your whole travel key is around 0.8mm...there is not more to say

People were also saying they didn't add the 2018 to the keyboard service program to sell AppleCare+ and profit off the anxiety. Adding the 2019 is proof they aren't doing that and do expect you should have a reasonable life out of your Apple purchase...

They can't be 100% sure they fixed the issue until they see what the reports are after it is released. This is evident since they have tried fixes in the past that worked well in their lab and testing environments, but fell short once they were placed in to the market. Their path is reasonable and sound.

Will everyone be happy? No. Some people aren't tolerant of any mistakes. Especially with luxury priced products like Apple products.

 

[pshufd]

Will everyone be happy? No. Some people aren't tolerant of any mistakes. Especially with luxury priced products like Apple products.

I don't think that's it at all.

Non-luxury products provide basic functionality. When a luxury product doesn't provide basic functionality, then that is a big issue.

 

[LogicalApex]

I don't think that's it at all.

Non-luxury products provide basic functionality. When a luxury product doesn't provide basic functionality, then that is a big issue.

Luxury goods are complex. In some cases luxury goods need to be more reliable and offer extras like better customer service or warranties to justify their prices and sometimes they don't need to do this as the "brand" is desirable enough.

A good example would be German luxury cars like Mercedes where reliability issues plagued them for a decade or so and they still had great sales because their target buyers tend to lease their vehicles and don't own them outside of the original warranty period. As a result, their used sales prices tank hard as secondary buyers discount them for this lack of reliability, but the company doesn't make money on secondary (used) sales so they aren't a focus.

Apple provides basic functionality. The controversy here is that they have a flaw in a basic component. But flaws happen. The major differentiator from a luxury brand is supposed to be how they respond to these problems. Cheap brands will tend to ignore the consumer and luxury brands should offer good service. Apple appears to be living up to this...

Obviously, it would be ideal for the problem to not exist in the first place, but Apple is comprised of humans and we make mistakes and the solutions aren't always super easy.

 

[pshufd]

Luxury goods are complex. In some cases luxury goods need to be more reliable and offer extras like better customer service or warranties to justify their prices and sometimes they don't need to do this as the "brand" is desirable enough.

A good example would be German luxury cars like Mercedes where reliability issues plagued them for a decade or so and they still had great sales because their target buyers tend to lease their vehicles and don't own them outside of the original warranty period. As a result, their used sales prices tank hard as secondary buyers discount them for this lack of reliability, but the company doesn't make money on secondary (used) sales so they aren't a focus.

Apple provides basic functionality. The controversy here is that they have a flaw in a basic component. But flaws happen. The major differentiator from a luxury brand is supposed to be how they respond to these problems. Cheap brands will tend to ignore the consumer and luxury brands should offer good service. Apple appears to be living up to this...

Obviously, it would be ideal for the problem to not exist in the first place, but Apple is comprised of humans and we make mistakes and the solutions aren't always super easy.

The keyboard would be like tires on a car. If tires failed and caused accidents, then it would affect sales. A better analogy would be Audi and their unintended acceleration problems in the 1980s. Their sales did take a hit.

And the solution is super easy - just put in a conventional keyboard.

Pride and ego got in the way of that though.

I have a $1,100 smartwatch (no, not a cheap Apple Watch). It performs the high-end tasks quite well.

And yes, you can still use it to tell time reliably.

 

[LogicalApex]

The keyboard would be like tires on a car. If tires failed and caused accidents, then it would affect sales. A better analogy would be Audi and their unintended acceleration problems in the 1980s. Their sales did take a hit.

And the solution is super easy - just put in a conventional keyboard.

Yet all cars exclude tires from their warranty. So unless the tire is causing accidents you'll be left high and dry if your tire is wearing out quickly, offers poor traction, fails to hold air well, dies too easily on potholes, etc...

The simple solution isn't "putting on a conventional keyboard" as there is no such thing as a "conventional keyboard" for laptops. All laptops have custom keyboards designed foe that manufacturer for that line or revision of the laptop. As a result, Apple would need to design a new keyboard for the MacBook Pro which would require a redesign of the entire machine assuming you're of the opinion that the problem is purely key travel. And that is assuming that the problem is actually a travel problem and not due to warping from heat stress or something else...

Just like a car... They can't just "put wider tires on it" if you're complaining about traction...

Obviously, Apple needs to get to the root of the problem and fix it fully. They also need to ensure that users who purchased machines like the 2018, which includes me, aren't left high and dry if their KB has an issue. Thankfully they appear to have done this... I'll hold judgment for others who have had issues to report back on how well the 3rd Generation Revision 2 keyboard is.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I'm just amazed I still see people giving *any* slack to Apple on this topic.

I don't give a single F that they have a generous repair program and included this new model in it.

We shouldn't be here right now. This keyboard has been a problem since literally the first version and it should long ago have been scrap heaped and either a whole new version or a reversion to Scissors should have already been deployed.

It's not an R&D issue, it's a money, leadership and will issue.

This situation, I guarantee you, is one that would not be at this point with Steve around.
It literally is one of those rare situations where that applies.

I could see him throwing one of these POS keyboard machines against a wall in a board meeting.

We shouldn't be here.
This shouldn't be happening.
Excuses for Apple shouldn't be made.
They have no defense on this at this point in time.

 

[pshufd]

Yet all cars exclude tires from their warranty. So unless the tire is causing accidents you'll be left high and dry if your tire is wearing out quickly, offers poor traction, fails to hold air well, dies too easily on potholes, etc...

The simple solution isn't "putting on a conventional keyboard" as there is no such thing as a "conventional keyboard" for laptops. All laptops have custom keyboards designed foe that manufacturer for that line or revision of the laptop. As a result, Apple would need to design a new keyboard for the MacBook Pro which would require a redesign of the entire machine assuming you're of the opinion that the problem is purely key travel. And that is assuming that the problem is actually a travel problem and not due to warping from heat stress or something else...

Just like a car... They can't just "put wider tires on it" if you're complaining about traction...

Obviously, Apple needs to get to the root of the problem and fix it fully. They also need to ensure that users who purchased machines like the 2018, which includes me, aren't left high and dry if their KB has an issue. Thankfully they appear to have done this... I'll hold judgment for others who have had issues to report back on how well the 3rd Generation Revision 2 keyboard is.

The tire manufacturer provides the warranty on the tires.

If your dealer is any good, they will manage the warranty paperwork for you.

They wouldn't need to redesign a new keyboard, they have lots of them that worked just fine. What I'd really like them to do is what the rest of the industry has done. Apple could just take the 2015 Chassis, add two USB-C ports, upgraded processors and GPUs and call it a day. That would have been far less work than developing the 2016 and later models.

 

[StralyanPithecus]

It’s a luxury item or not, I don’t care, just give me a useable keyboard and stop the crap. I love the MacOS but their hardware is expensive and now it starts to look cheap quality, so, or fix it or people who are not idiots will start moving out from Apple.

Excuses, excuses and excuses.... and some people will defend Apple like their life depend on it 😡

 

[LogicalApex]

The tire manufacturer provides the warranty on the tires.

Tire warranties exclude OEM tires and OEM car warranties exclude tires.

Thankfully I had a good Wheel & Tire policy in place when I learned my OE tires couldn't handle the pot holes we've been getting here in the NE. Though it did take over $1500 in tire replacements (paid by the plan) for me to decide to buy new tires so I didn't need to get them swapped as much.

They wouldn't need to redesign a new keyboard, they have lots of them that worked just fine. What I'd really like them to do is what the rest of the industry has done. Apple could just take the 2015 Chassis, add two USB-C ports, upgraded processors and GPUs and call it a day. That would have been far less work than developing the 2016 and later models.

That would still require a full machine redesign. Although the keyboard would fit. The logic board, etc wouldn't.

It is quite possible that is an angle Apple is going down with the redesign for 2020... We shall see how they tackle this issue fully...

 

[pshufd]

It’s a luxury item or not, I don’t care, just give me a useable keyboard and stop the crap. I love the MacOS but their hardware is expensive and now it starts to look cheap quality, so, or fix it or people who are not idiots will start moving out from Apple.

Excuses, excuses and excuses.... and some people will defend Apple like their life depend on it 😡

Stocks are like that as well. Until the losses become unbearable.

Don’t fall in love with a stock, it will break your heart.

 

[frou]

4 years should be 10 years.

What is it about year 5 that causes a high-end computer to turn into something that nobody should have an expectation of successfully typing on?

 

[Blingers]

If I had one of the newer MacBook Pros and I hated the keyboard but otherwise like the computer, I'd just buy an external keyboard and use that. If you need to travel a lot with it, then I'd look for something thin and light and tuck it into my bag. An external mouse would go along with it so that you can use it on the side instead of having to reach over the external keyboard to get to the trackpad.

Well said mate. Some serious first world problems going on with this keyboard.