Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

New Machines on Jan 7th

Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by lmalave


This Viewsonic is not a wireless monitor - it's a Tablet PC.
Click to expand...

Unless you're talking about a different device than I've seen linked here ( http://www.viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanelv150.htm ), you are mistaken. The ViewSonic "airpanel" is a Mira device. It uses 802.11b to view your desktop on an unattached device which acts essentially as a dumb terminal to your PC (using XP Pro's Remote Desktop ... hence the included upgrade to Windows XP Pro and the 802.11b wireless gear included in the package). It does have a CPU and an OS, but the CPU/OS are just enough to drive the Remote Desktop client (XScale processor and Win CE), and the memory supplied (64MB) is far below spec for Windows XP.

Viewsonic also makes tablet PCs: http://www.viewsonic.com/products/tablet_pc_viewpad1000.htm

But those aren't under discussion here, I don't think.


What would be an entirely different product (but definitely not worth $4000 since it has even less functionality than a Tablet PC) is a true wireless monitor with touch screen, which wouldn't have a CPU but would act as a combination wireless display / input device. I'm not sure what kind of bandwidth sending the full-screen video would take, though. My guess is the 11Mbps Airport is not enough. And forget Bluetooth - remember, folks, it's only 724Kbps!! And even if they used 802.11a that's only 72Mbps, I think. But maybe it only updates part of the screen? Maybe it's like when you use Remote Desktop typ technologies... That would imply that the display would have to have at least a small CPU, since it would be more than just a "dumb display".
Click to expand...

Yes, Mira uses Remote Desktop technologies, which only send the WinGDI commands for updates across the wires, not a full-screen snapshot 30 times per second. However, of course, note that some applications (games and screen savers) might do massive-bandwidth GDI calls (ie, send a full-screen bitmap to the screen a few times a second) which Mira and its kind would never be able to handle well.

If Apple were to do this, I'd expect they'd substitute their Remote Desktop technology for MS's, etc. Don't know how the relative bandwidth requirements compare, but I'd suspect they're pretty similar one to the other.

That having been said, Apple would have to eliminate the bad design aspects of Mira. It would be really neat if Apple allowed an attached monitor to be used in addition to the remote desktop, but I don't see that happening (I don't believe their Remote Desktop tech allows for such a thing, just as MS's RD tech doesn't). An advantage for Apple would be if the detachable monitor was large enough to be used attached as well, so users don't have a "dead" monitor on their desktop while the detached monitor is in use (this bothers Mira testers to no end ...)
 
Multiple Users

This wireless monitor discussion seems interesting. Certainly would be a nice thing for graphic designers (assuming it would have a pen and was pressure sensitive). What about for typical household use?

If it really costs that much, then even this solution doesn't seem to add up. In terms of the flexibility to move where you work around, a portable would do as good a job AND it can be used anywhere, not just in a limited radius around your home computer.

Now what if the computer part was dual processor and could serve multiple input/output devices. Now this is probably a little early for such a system, but follow a few trends and it makes sense:

1. For a large majority of people, speed is no longer the biggest concern when getting a computer. In the future, it will probably be even less of an issue.

2. OS X seems to be better at throughput than speed for individual applications. From my limited experience, those of us that run lots of apps at the same time seem to be more impressed with OS X "speed" than those running one critical app.

3. Higher speed networking.

4. Many homes now have multiple computers and many people using them (offices and labs have been this way for a while, I guess).

OK, so if OS X is great at running lots of applications at the same time for one person, why not do it for multiple users at the same time. Dual processors in a system (maybe only one in the future) could be enough. Or Apple could make a sleek, sexy consumer version of the server rack; simply slide in more computing power for your home/lab/office and share it among multiple users. If you happen to be the only one using it at any given time, rather than have lots of computers doing nothing, the one main computer makes everything you do happen many times faster.

This idea is quite old (older than the personal computer concept), but trends in computer science/engineering go in and out of fashion (kinda like clothing).

Anyway, this seems to be an interesting variation on some of the clustering rumors going around....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by jettredmont


Unless you're talking about a different device than I've seen linked here ( http://www.viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanelv150.htm ), you are mistaken. The ViewSonic "airpanel" is a Mira device. It uses 802.11b to view your desktop on an unattached device which acts essentially as a dumb terminal to your PC (using XP Pro's Remote Desktop ... hence the included upgrade to Windows XP Pro and the 802.11b wireless gear included in the package). It does have a CPU and an OS, but the CPU/OS are just enough to drive the Remote Desktop client (XScale processor and Win CE), and the memory supplied (64MB) is far below spec for Windows XP.

Viewsonic also makes tablet PCs: http://www.viewsonic.com/products/tablet_pc_viewpad1000.htm

But those aren't under discussion here, I don't think.




Yes, Mira uses Remote Desktop technologies, which only send the WinGDI commands for updates across the wires, not a full-screen snapshot 30 times per second. However, of course, note that some applications (games and screen savers) might do massive-bandwidth GDI calls (ie, send a full-screen bitmap to the screen a few times a second) which Mira and its kind would never be able to handle well.

If Apple were to do this, I'd expect they'd substitute their Remote Desktop technology for MS's, etc. Don't know how the relative bandwidth requirements compare, but I'd suspect they're pretty similar one to the other.

That having been said, Apple would have to eliminate the bad design aspects of Mira. It would be really neat if Apple allowed an attached monitor to be used in addition to the remote desktop, but I don't see that happening (I don't believe their Remote Desktop tech allows for such a thing, just as MS's RD tech doesn't). An advantage for Apple would be if the detachable monitor was large enough to be used attached as well, so users don't have a "dead" monitor on their desktop while the detached monitor is in use (this bothers Mira testers to no end ...)
Click to expand...

Ahhh, I stand corrected - I knew that Viewsonic was one of the manufacturers in Microsoft's Tablet PC push - so I assumed that this was the same device. I would definitely be interested to see this Mira device in action! $1300 bucks for it, though. Ouch! This would certainly account for the $4000 price tag, especially if it's a 17" version. And, hey, it would bring together Apple's investments in Inkwell, Airport, and Remote Desktop. It's starting to look more like a possibility....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by porovaara


Uh, no it isn't. Read it again.
Click to expand...

Since when does a monitor need a proc, OS, and RAM? It looks more like a "light" tablet PC that just networks w/yer rig wirelessly.


Lethal

EDIT: It's amazing how many posts can go up while I'm looking over that link and then typing my reply...
 
As most have already said I can't see any addition to the iMac (short of a 22" display) that could boost the price that much.

I find it disappointing that people are still talking about how much more they would pay for a Mac. Yes OS X is a great operating system and yes the designs are great, but Apple doesn't sell in a vacuum. Gateway is selling a 2GHz machine with a 15" LCD display for US$699 (after $100 mail in rebate). So add Apple's usual heathy margin and you get a 15" LCD iMac for $999. That would probably make a bigger splash at Macworld than another much higher priced iMac.

What I find difficult to believe is that anybody would pay for a high quality 19" or larger LCD display that was permanently stuck to a computer. That display is still going to look great 10 years from now, but the iMac base it's connected to will be obsolete in less than half the time. No, for me the 19" iMac makes no sense at all.

Where's the iPizzaBox? It's a small LC III inspired design with an ADC connector on the back. That would force buyers to go with an Apple display or purchase an adapter, but they would be free to choose anything from a 17" model to the 23" Cinema HD if their heart (and wallet) desired. I consider it a winning strategy, but Apple doesn't seem to care what I think.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by lmalave


This Viewsonic is not a wireless monitor - it's a Tablet PC.
Click to expand...

The viewsonic thing is a wireless monitor. It uses Microsoft's remote desktop protocol, which transfers data much more efficiently than apple remote desktop or VNC, the only two present options Apple would have if they wanted to create something similiar.
There's a ms rdp client for osx, I use it all the time with my xp box over my wireless network. Its waay faster than using virtual pc.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by porovaara


Uh, no it isn't. Read it again.
Click to expand...

It's both. And neither.

It is two things:

It's a regular, wired, LCD monitor when you buy the optional $200 dock.

It's also a WinCE-based tablet-type "computer" with an 802.11b (wireless) card. It has the ability to "control" a nearby host WinXP Pro PC, using WinXP Pro's ability to be controlled (similar to Timbuktu).

To say this is a "remote display" is akin to calling my PowerBook a "remote display" to my G4 because (as I'm doing now) it can controlthe G4 by Timbuktu over AirPort. My PowerBook is, of course, a real computer unto itself while the Viewsonic Airpanel is just an oversized PDA.

At $1000-$1300 for the Airpanel, I'd much rather buy an iBook.
 
Heyho, finally the rumors are starting to cook up slowly!

While all that 4000$ thing floats around, maybe you were overlooking the (more likely than CF) possibility of an OLED Display on the iPod along with movie playback capabilities. This could be the next wireless thing.

According to another thread, Kodak (was it?) are already shipping 2" OLEDs to an unknown customer. Those screens have a VERY high resolution and consume less power than a backlighted LCD - ideal for movie playback and no need to further alternate the iPods hardware...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by jettredmont
Yes, Mira uses Remote Desktop technologies, which only send the WinGDI commands for updates across the wires, not a full-screen snapshot 30 times per second. However, of course, note that some applications (games and screen savers) might do massive-bandwidth GDI calls (ie, send a full-screen bitmap to the screen a few times a second) which Mira and its kind would never be able to handle well.
Click to expand...
Something the X-Window system on Unix/Linux has been doing for 10+ years? Or is Mira something more?

Originally posted by jettredmont
If Apple were to do this, I'd expect they'd substitute their Remote Desktop technology for MS's, etc. Don't know how the relative bandwidth requirements compare, but I'd suspect they're pretty similar one to the other.
Click to expand...
When you say "substitute their Remote Desktop for MS's", I'm reading that as, "Use the remote desktop/display capabilities that OPENSTEP had instead of implementing MS's Mira on OS X"
If that is what you meant, I'd agree - I was somewhat surprised when Quartz was released to find that the remote displayability of the old DPS engine was absent - I'd love to see it come back.

Originally posted by jettredmont
It would be really neat if Apple allowed an attached monitor to be used in addition to the remote desktop, but I don't see that happening (I don't believe their Remote Desktop tech allows for such a thing, just as MS's RD tech doesn't).
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure that would be too difficult, I could see it working easily if the portable screen was just a separate login to the OS X box, but sharing one login session accross the two displays would take some thought.
 
$4000 imac...long shot but maybe if...

Originally posted by ntg
Maybe the price IS right, if you think what it COULD include as a digital hub. After all, with a 19" screen, all you need to do is include a remote. With a new digital tuner for TV and Radio, and with the new carbon sound/midi for true stereo surround sound, nice soundstick-style speakers, a dvd-r for tv recording/DVD playback and the iPod for stereo jukebox functions, what else would you need in the living room?

I'd probably pay for one...:cool:
Click to expand...

I think this is the only way to make this price work. Try this:
1 ghz....at least, if not more-512 ram...at least...ddr probably-120 HD...wait for it...

19" lcd...again, at least. the earlier comment about the cinema display seems more likely at the price.

geforce 4mx...nope...too wimpy. Im thinking a radeon 9700...AIW. (we are talking $4k here)

think about it. you've got a nearly 20" lcd (about the size of a 22" tv), a buttload of ram, a graphics card that can push a game at a decent framerate at the lcd's native resolution, plus a hd that would allow tivo-like services. Hopefully, you also have tv-out ability as well.

Such a thing would compete vs the HP media center machines (high end $2k, sans monitor), although its still way too expensive. And the HP has the crappier geforceMX card, but does include THX 5.1 speakers.

If they can do that, they may have a market, but still a limited one.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

Something the X-Window system on Unix/Linux has been doing for 10+ years? Or is Mira something more?
Click to expand...

Well, yeah, you could say that all remote display technologies are roughly analogous to X-Windows in that there is a server (the X-Windows server or XP Pro) and there is a client (the X display or WinCE device) and there is a GDI protocol (X windowing commands, whose name I forget, or Remote Desktop Protocol). Kinda, sorta. But the details of the two protocols (RDP and X's) are quite different if I recall correctly, much as X UI calls and Windows GDI calls are quite foreign to one another.



When you say "substitute their Remote Desktop for MS's", I'm reading that as, "Use the remote desktop/display capabilities that OPENSTEP had instead of implementing MS's Mira on OS X"
If that is what you meant, I'd agree - I was somewhat surprised when Quartz was released to find that the remote displayability of the old DPS engine was absent - I'd love to see it come back.
Click to expand...

Seems to me there was an Apple Remote Access program released last year. I haven't run it myself, but it was released with a bit of fanfare, and with glowing comparisons to MS's Remote Desktop technology (which was as yet unreleased at the time). I think it was at MWNY 1.5 years ago come to think of it.

Ah, found it. Apple Remote Desktop: http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

Not cheap, though, at $299 for the 10-client (heretofore regarded as "servers" in the X-Windows sense) package. Although, cheaper than the $99/client XP Home-to-Pro upgrade required on the Windows side of the fence.


I'm not so sure that would be too difficult, I could see it working easily if the portable screen was just a separate login to the OS X box, but sharing one login session accross the two displays would take some thought.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. It would be nice if you could do it, but I'm a bit sceptical. It would mean two separate WindowManager instances running on one box, or a single instance able to decipher calls from User A (remote) from calls from User B (at the computer). This is the major reason that Mira will not allow you to use both the detachable screen and the front screen at once. I don't recall Apple's Remote Desktop alternative allowing two completely separate windowing systems active at once; seems the remote client just got a mirror of what the local user was seeing.

But, like I said, this is not coming from having used Apple's remote tech, just from year+-old press reports that I only halfway paid attention to. It may be possible. It would be "neat". But, if not possible, then Apple can at least make it not seem like it should be possible by making the primary display be the same as the remote display (so you don't have a "disabled" display sitting at the local machine).
 
Originally posted by MacBandit
Looks like everyone has missed the 2nd most obvious answer. The first answer being that the rumor is false. The second answer being that Apple wants the iMac to be the center of a digital hub. Well if you buy an iMac and you don't have any devices to plug into it it isn't exactly a digital hub is it? So maybe Apple is going to make a package with the high end iMac, printer, scanner, digital camera, iPod and what ever other device they might include.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't think that any hardware bump can justify a 100% price increase. But, I think that with a small speed increase, apple included say, a digtal elph, printer, scanner, and a 10 gig iPod as you said, i can see people paying 4 grand for a package like this, especially if these are things that the average prosumer will use, but might not have. i like this idea.
 
Re: Unverifiable is right!

Originally posted by zedwards
First thought: MacBidwho?? Any history on MacBidouille accuracy? As most everyone is singing, sounds like a crock. This isn't even entertainment.
Click to expand...

Well, they had the pictures of the new MDD PowerMacs first. This was pretty accurate, wasn't it?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by jettredmont
Seems to me there was an Apple Remote Access program released last year. I haven't run it myself, but it was released with a bit of fanfare, and with glowing comparisons to MS's Remote Desktop technology (which was as yet unreleased at the time). I think it was at MWNY 1.5 years ago come to think of it.

Ah, found it. Apple Remote Desktop: http://www.apple.com/remotedesktop/

Not cheap, though, at $299 for the 10-client (heretofore regarded as "servers" in the X-Windows sense) package. Although, cheaper than the $99/client XP Home-to-Pro upgrade required on the Windows side of the fence.
Click to expand...
I don't know much about that product, but I had thought it was more of a Timbuktu or VNC on steroids. What I'm talking about is more akin to the X-Window way of doing things: The X-Server actually exists on the machine where the window is displayed. The X-Client is the application running elsewhere (or not) asking the X-Server to display the windowing stuff. OPENSTEP's DPS worked much the same way. I had OPENSTEP Enterprise on my NT machine which included a DPS window server and I could, from another OPENSTEP machine, display windows on it across the network.

Originally posted by jettredmont
Hmmm. It would be nice if you could do it, but I'm a bit sceptical. It would mean two separate WindowManager instances running on one box, or a single instance able to decipher calls from User A (remote) from calls from User B (at the computer). This is the major reason that Mira will not allow you to use both the detachable screen and the front screen at once. I don't recall Apple's Remote Desktop alternative allowing two completely separate windowing systems active at once; seems the remote client just got a mirror of what the local user was seeing.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't the 2nd WindowManager instance be running on the "thin client" machine though? Like the X-Server comments above.
 
iMacs Above $2K Are An Oxymoron

I can't imagine Apple wanting to or trying to sell iMacs for more than $1999. It's susposed to be a people's computer not an elite untouchable line. This rumor doesn't make any sense. I say 17" iMacs will fill out the current 15" price points with the bonus of Bluetooth Keyboards and Mice, more RAM and bigger hard drives. Nothing over $2K in the line will continue to be the iMac rule.
 
Please!

All of you talking about the price, USE SOME COMMON SENSE!

As one of the four points made is unrelated to the iMac, maybe the new priced machine is too - maybe it's a Cube for God's sake - maybe something entirely different! We'll just have to wait and see.
 
Re: Please!

Originally posted by gotohamish
All of you talking about the price, USE SOME COMMON SENSE!

As one of the four points made is unrelated to the iMac, maybe the new priced machine is too - maybe it's a Cube for God's sake - maybe something entirely different! We'll just have to wait and see.
Click to expand...
maybe its just a speed bump and few software updates
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Unless...

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

I don't know much about that product, but I had thought it was more of a Timbuktu or VNC on steroids. What I'm talking about is more akin to the X-Window way of doing things: The X-Server actually exists on the machine where the window is displayed. The X-Client is the application running elsewhere (or not) asking the X-Server to display the windowing stuff. OPENSTEP's DPS worked much the same way. I had OPENSTEP Enterprise on my NT machine which included a DPS window server and I could, from another OPENSTEP machine, display windows on it across the network.


Wouldn't the 2nd WindowManager instance be running on the "thin client" machine though? Like the X-Server comments above.
Click to expand...

Interesting, yes. That would be a bit different from what is currently in Apple Remote Desktop (and in Windows Remote Desktop). The application itself would be powered on the desktop, but you'd still have to have enough horsepower in the display device to run the window server there. For OS X, that means, I would guess, a pretty hefty processor and memory requirement (Quartz is an absolute memory hog, keeping a full bitmap for every window on the system, even if that window is minimized or obscured by other windows! I'd expect 128MB minimum memory just to have Quartz happy on the remote device! Note that the Windows GDI architecture would be more forgiving for memory requirements here, but as each app has to redraw when it comes into view has a larger bandwidth requirement instead ...) for the remote device, which would, yes, make it pretty darned expensive.

Sorry for the run-on thought above ... Your suggestion sounds interesting, and might be doable ... and, if done, would be more efficient than the Mira concept network-wise, and allow for a better overall user experience (along with someone sitting at the desktop working while the remote display is active, which Mira can not do). On the other hand, the plumbing for this, as far as I know, is no longer in OS X (Quartz, I mean), so it might take some serious development work at Apple to get it going ... But, you never know.
 
Erm...

The large price increase is probably not an increase but the new price itself... the new iMacs will cost 1200-1300 euros each.
 
A 1GHz machine with a superdrive and a 19" LCD screen for $4000 (even though it will likely be cheaper in the States) doesn't seem unreasonable at all, IMHO. What else could you possibly want / need in any machine? The screen alone will be worth over $1000.
 
Everyone is so focused on this $4K price, trying to "make the shoe fit" it. Turning into a long thread just based on hearsay. Don't believe this rumor. Apple wouldn't be committing sucide by releasing something that expensive. But they will have other surprises that no one has thought of. Just wait a couple more weeks. :p
 
With 2 weeks to go anxiously waiting for whatever Steve Jobs is going to announce. Don't plan to get my hopes up, waiting for later this year, expect more of a magical time! :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back