Get the 15". Portability and cost are big issues here. Take the money you save and invest in kegs or something else you need for college.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
New PowerBooks - Finally
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Switcher here, maxed out a 12 inch powerbook (well almost, only 768 MB mem, and 60 GB hd). Education discount was great. Today I bought $4400 retail value of stuff (got a canon optera 20 DV cam to), and only had to pay $2800. Bought my memory and the camera from amazon, everything else (ipod, powerbook, FCE) from apple.
My only three complaints is 1) no backlit kb - i am very dissapointed, 2) no FW800 - it's been said before, but this is a pro laptop, why nto have PRO features - same goes for hte lack of gigabit eth. 3) miniDVI? They couldn't in all their mind fit a real DVI port there? It is jsut going to be a minor inconvinence.
Overall I'm really excited to get my mac! I've been following macrumors way to long to not be a mac guy myself. My ship date forthe 12 inch is 9/25... 9 long days to go.
My only three complaints is 1) no backlit kb - i am very dissapointed, 2) no FW800 - it's been said before, but this is a pro laptop, why nto have PRO features - same goes for hte lack of gigabit eth. 3) miniDVI? They couldn't in all their mind fit a real DVI port there? It is jsut going to be a minor inconvinence.
Overall I'm really excited to get my mac! I've been following macrumors way to long to not be a mac guy myself. My ship date forthe 12 inch is 9/25... 9 long days to go.
Re: 15.4" Powerbooks
The difference is that 15.4' screens now have resolutions up to 1920x1200 - as is found on the current widescreen offerings of Dell - versus the (new) Powerbook with a screen resolution of 1280x854.
I'd call that .2" a pretty big difference, and the sole reason I'm not biting on this new 15" Powerbook.
I actually think that the fact that Powerbooks have lagged so far behind the Wintel world in terms of screen resolution to have been the biggest shortcoming of Powerbooks in the past few years.
What I suspect is going on is that Apple finds itself in the potentially embarassing position of offering a 15" Powerbook with screen resolution that is significantly better than its 17" Powerbook.
Regardless, it's a huge bummer - maybe not for the rest of you - but for me.
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
If .2" is that important to you, you really need to get a life
The difference is that 15.4' screens now have resolutions up to 1920x1200 - as is found on the current widescreen offerings of Dell - versus the (new) Powerbook with a screen resolution of 1280x854.
I'd call that .2" a pretty big difference, and the sole reason I'm not biting on this new 15" Powerbook.
I actually think that the fact that Powerbooks have lagged so far behind the Wintel world in terms of screen resolution to have been the biggest shortcoming of Powerbooks in the past few years.
What I suspect is going on is that Apple finds itself in the potentially embarassing position of offering a 15" Powerbook with screen resolution that is significantly better than its 17" Powerbook.
Regardless, it's a huge bummer - maybe not for the rest of you - but for me.
I can sympathize. I will probably end up buying a new 12" or 15" pbook but I definitely have love/hate feelings about apple. They are probably the most innovative computer company around. Their products have great design and osx is a very good OS. But I think their pricing is based almost on a monopoly model, i.e. nobody else makes macOS based machines so they price them accordingly. Look at their margins, they are the highest in the industry. (Admittedly the price/performance equation of the pbooks would be better if Mot could deliver faster G4s.) Of course they will never compete with Dell on price but I'd like it if they were a bit more in the game.
Choice is another sore point when judging mac vs. PC. I realize that Apple probably wouldn't have survived if they let the Mac cloners continue. But i ruefully look at Powerbooks versus the number of choices in the PC universe. I'd love to shop around and find a powerbook with higher screen resolution and an eraser nub pointing device (I love those things) and two buttons. But as it is I'm stuck.
I go to university in Canada and DAMN I love the Apple Education Plan....just ordered me a 15' inch 1 Ghz PB , 512, combo, backlit keyboard .
What would normally cost 3098$ (CANADIAN dollars...1 CDN dollar = approx 73 cents US) costs 2771 with the Education Plan....327 bucks.... 10% off....
(I'm the sure the savings are the same in the US and across teh pond, but it sounds impressive when yor talking CDN dollars)
(And yeah, you might say i'm excited about my little purchase............until i get my credit card statement that is......student loans to the rescue?)
What would normally cost 3098$ (CANADIAN dollars...1 CDN dollar = approx 73 cents US) costs 2771 with the Education Plan....327 bucks.... 10% off....
(I'm the sure the savings are the same in the US and across teh pond, but it sounds impressive when yor talking CDN dollars)
(And yeah, you might say i'm excited about my little purchase............until i get my credit card statement that is......student loans to the rescue?)
Re: Re: 15.4" Powerbooks
So you complain about the resolution, not the size. It's a much more direct argument
So you complain about the resolution, not the size. It's a much more direct argument
I want to get a new 17" PowerBook to replace my trustworthy but aging Pismo. The standard drive is 4200 rpm, or you can order a 5400 rpm option (same capacity). I do some video editing with Final Cut Express and am wondering if the 5400 rpm drive is worth the extra cost and reduced battery life.
I mostly capture to an external FW drive anyway, but wonder if the faster drive will mean better performance all around. I see many of you have opted for the 5400 - opinions?
I mostly capture to an external FW drive anyway, but wonder if the faster drive will mean better performance all around. I see many of you have opted for the 5400 - opinions?
15" 1GHz w/ backlit keyboard?
I was under the impression that the backlit keyboard was only for the high-end 'Books (15" 1.25GHz PB and 17" PB). The 1GHz, 15-inch PowerBook doesn't come with a backlit keyboard.
Originally posted by erik19
I go to university in Canada and DAMN I love the Apple Education Plan....just ordered me a 15' inch 1 Ghz PB , 512, combo, backlit keyboard .
What would normally cost 3098$ (CANADIAN dollars...1 CDN dollar = approx 73 cents US) costs 2771 with the Education Plan....327 bucks.... 10% off....
(I'm the sure the savings are the same in the US and across teh pond, but it sounds impressive when yor talking CDN dollars)
(And yeah, you might say i'm excited about my little purchase............until i get my credit card statement that is......student loans to the rescue?)
I was under the impression that the backlit keyboard was only for the high-end 'Books (15" 1.25GHz PB and 17" PB). The 1GHz, 15-inch PowerBook doesn't come with a backlit keyboard.
Re: 15" 1GHz w/ backlit keyboard?
While it doesn't come standard, the backlit keyboard is a built to order option.
While it doesn't come standard, the backlit keyboard is a built to order option.
5400 RPM sucks too! Get yourself the new IBM 7K60 drive. It's 60GB and does 7200 RPM with 8MB cache! That's what i'm doing. I don't know why Apple didn't do this to begin with. Every good computer needs a fast HDD. The IBM 7K60 is the fastest laptop drive out there. It's power draw is about the same as all the 5400RMB drives because of the new technology built into it.
Originally posted by nickmcghie
umm not all mac users live in the US..
i hate ignorant americans
I can think of a dozen other countries where it was late at night when the keynote was happening in Paris.
How did you know this person was American?
Please think before you post, and please keep your silly biases to yourself.
Overall, I was hoping for more from the keynote, but in regards to the new PowerBook line, I am pleased.
Apple fixed the obvious flaws and added features that should of been there to begin with, e.g. USB2.
I think this is a nice line to hold us over until the G5 PB's come--as long as that is not a year from now.
Apple fixed the obvious flaws and added features that should of been there to begin with, e.g. USB2.
I think this is a nice line to hold us over until the G5 PB's come--as long as that is not a year from now.
Quick show of hands -- who here thinks if Richard was really such a "pro" as he seems to make out, he'd spend less time posting ALL DAY LONG on Mac-oriented forums, and particularly in threads relating to Powerbook updates, which he repeatedly says he doesn't find compelling? Most "pros" I know actually have better things to do with their time, frankly.
Personally, I think he's a troll, as are many folks here. Not so much in terms of being rabidly anti-Mac, but rather, the guy just needs some attention, and has found a cheap way to get it.
His logic does not hold up by any means -- in fact he keeps contradicting himself, saying that to some people the extra features the Powerbook offers may be worth it to some folks but not to him, then saying the updates are categorically not worthwhile, then saying Intel-based laptops compete on speed, size, weight, power, aesthetics, features, quality and price, all simultaneously (total BS, as anyone can validate).
So maybe, just maybe, we can ignore him, and folks like him, and they will go away. Because really -- if you don't like the updates, cool -- maybe rate the article negative or something, and go your way. But really, to spend so much time dwelling on a subject that is frankly so banal, _especially_ if you claim to not be interested -- geez! Ya gotta wonder.
Personally, I think he's a troll, as are many folks here. Not so much in terms of being rabidly anti-Mac, but rather, the guy just needs some attention, and has found a cheap way to get it.
His logic does not hold up by any means -- in fact he keeps contradicting himself, saying that to some people the extra features the Powerbook offers may be worth it to some folks but not to him, then saying the updates are categorically not worthwhile, then saying Intel-based laptops compete on speed, size, weight, power, aesthetics, features, quality and price, all simultaneously (total BS, as anyone can validate).
So maybe, just maybe, we can ignore him, and folks like him, and they will go away. Because really -- if you don't like the updates, cool -- maybe rate the article negative or something, and go your way. But really, to spend so much time dwelling on a subject that is frankly so banal, _especially_ if you claim to not be interested -- geez! Ya gotta wonder.
I asked someone and this is the response I got.. I'm going for the 5400rpm drive.
Here are the numbers for an IBM 4200 rpm drive (I don't know what brand
apple is using)
Power Requirement: +5 VDC(+/-5%);
Dissipation (typical);
Startup (max peak): 4.7W;
Seek (average): 2.3W;
Read (average): 2.0W;
Write (average): 2.1W;
Performance idle (average): 1.85W;
Active idle (average): .85W;
Low power idle (average): 0.65W;
Standby (average): 0.25W;
Sleep: 0.1W;
Power consumption efficiency (watts/GB): 0.033.
Here are the numbers for an IBM 5400 rpm drive:
Requirement: +5 VDC(+/-5%)
Dissipation (typical)
Startup (max peak): 5.0W
Seek (average): 2.6W
Read (average): 2.5W
Write (average): 2.5W
Performance idle (average): 2.0W
Active idle (average): 1.3W
Low power idle (average): 0.85W
Standby (average): 0.25W
Sleep: 0.1W
Power consumption efficiency (watts/GB): 0.021
As you can see, the 5400 rpm drive is slightly higher. For the sake of argument, let's look at the performance idle (average) number...
1.85 W vs 2.0 W - a difference of 7.5%
The battery on the 15" according to the tech specs page is a
46-watt-hour lithium-ion battery. They advertise 4.5 hours, so they're assuming that you're consuming 10.2 watt-hours per hour. I don't know a ton about how everything is rated, but if my vague memory serves me right, 2.0 watts for 1 hours = 2 watt hours. The 5400 rpm battery, running at our supposed 2.0 watts, is responsible for 19.6% of the power consumption. The 4200 rpm drive, running at our supposed 1.85 watts, is responsible for 18.1 % of the power consumption. This is a
total difference of 1.5% Over apple's figure of 4.5 hours, we're
talking a total of 4.05 minutes difference between the two.
Like I said, I don't really know how everything is rated, and I did use a fairly arbitrary number from what I found, but I think you're talking about a negligible amount of difference, especially when you consider that 5400 rpm drive would generally have to read and write for shorter periods of time, since it's faster (29% faster -- even with the fact that rotational speed doesn't affect performance on a 1 to 1 basis, I think that more than makes up for 7.5% difference in power consumption).
Let's lay out some realities here, people. I will take them point-by-point.
These are the best laptops Apple has ever sold, at I think the best price points. That is the FACT, and it is not debatable. This is not a PC-vs.-Mac BBS, and it's not even a thread relating to the relative merits of each platform. Let's stick to the topic.
Lack of FW 800 on the 12" -- I'm sorry, but right now, FW 800 is a marketing gimmick, and it will be for several years on laptops, until bus speeds improve dramatically. As well as the read/write speed of ATA drives in general. Deal with it, and quit it with the pen-- I mean spec-envy.
Screen resolution on all models -- too high a resolution, and OS X and your apps will be pretty much unusable (unless you like squinting and/or losing your eyesight faster than you already are by being a computer geek). Much higher than they currently are, which some folks seem to be calling for, is ridiculous, and would make using the computer unpleasant. Anyone with any clue only uses LCDs in the native mode, so switching down to a lower res. would not be an option. But hey, it's the Wintel people who seem to dwell on only specs, and no kind of real-world common-sense aesthetic sense. So I guess I see what mentality is leading to their argument, even if it is silly as all heck.
Aesthetics -- to say that any Wintel laptop on the planet can even BEGIN to compete with Apple laptops on this front is just plain goofy. If you think they can, you simply have no style. I'm sorry, but it's true. To some people, this is important. And aesthetics is more than looks. It's fit, form, polish, weight, heft, and all the people everywhere you go envying your computer. Wintel machines simply can't compete on this front, despite style-challenged opinions to the contrary.
Power -- I challenge somebody to point out an application that really requires much more power than these machines offer, for a portable. No, arguments about rendering video and 3D animation do not count, and there is a reason why -- in those kinds of applications, as fast as possible will ALWAYS be important, and as such, desktop machines will ALWAYS be more powerful. People wishing they could totally replace their desktop units with a portable, and thus discounting the Powerbooks as an option because they do not fit the bill, is ridiculous, because it's a pipe-dream that will never occur, as people will ALWAYS crave more power, and desktops will ALWAYS win. 98% of all laptop buyers are not doing so for powerhouse applications, so can we stop dwelling on this issue? I know a bunch of multimedia artists and music producers who put on incredible shows, all run in realtime from their machines. And guess what, the VAST majority use Macs. And we're talking older TiBooks and even iBooks here. Unless you are cracking the genetic code, or rendering a model of the Chunnel, you probably don't need as much power as you claim to need, in a laptop at least. Last time I checked, FCP could render most effects in realtime, for previews at least, which is all you're using during the vast majority of the production process. A 1 GHz G4 can handle dozens of tracks of audio playback, plus dozens of fx and softsynths, all in realtime. I know, because I can do that on my 4 year old G4 450 Sawtooth. When you do a final render, what does it matter if you start the render, go to sleep, and the machine finishes in 4 hours, versus starting the render, going to sleep, and finishing in 6 hours? Again, if you're trying to do hardcore pro-level rendering exclusively on a portable, and thus all the power you can get is important, you should not consider yourself a "pro," because that's not how pros work.
OS X, and the overall Mac experience. So valuable, it simply cannot be discounted, and people who do should not be Mac users (as in, we should not allow them to be, because they make us look bad, with their lack of common sense and decent judgment and all). Plus the iApps, which as far as basic movie-editing and DVD burning go, CAN NOT be beaten in the Windows world, or on any other platform for that matter. Or music playback/burning, for that matter, Or online music shopping. I could go on and on, but why should I have to? If you don't get it, you don't get it -- go away, and make virtual love to your Dell or Vaio or whatever else. Are they total crap as alternatives? No (their primary OS is, though). But this is a forum for people who DO see the value in the Mac experience, and if you don't meet that definition, you should probably get a cooler life than you currently have, and spend your time dwelling on things you DO care about. And if defending a computer platform to users of another platform is that thing, you should see a shrink. Really.
I could go on and on, but there's really no point. No point in even writing this, as the trolls will not go away, and the ridiculous debates will go on and on forever. Maybe it's time to find, or even start, a better Mac-oriented BBS, that does not allow trolls to take over and get in the way of decent conversations. Maybe it's time for the site's admin to really start moderating the forums. Maybe this post will get removed, and maybe I'll even be banned, because it's too inflammatory. What's sad is, it really ought to be the trolls who get banned. But for some reason, they are allowed to wreck havoc on an otherwise great site.
These are the best laptops Apple has ever sold, at I think the best price points. That is the FACT, and it is not debatable. This is not a PC-vs.-Mac BBS, and it's not even a thread relating to the relative merits of each platform. Let's stick to the topic.
Lack of FW 800 on the 12" -- I'm sorry, but right now, FW 800 is a marketing gimmick, and it will be for several years on laptops, until bus speeds improve dramatically. As well as the read/write speed of ATA drives in general. Deal with it, and quit it with the pen-- I mean spec-envy.
Screen resolution on all models -- too high a resolution, and OS X and your apps will be pretty much unusable (unless you like squinting and/or losing your eyesight faster than you already are by being a computer geek). Much higher than they currently are, which some folks seem to be calling for, is ridiculous, and would make using the computer unpleasant. Anyone with any clue only uses LCDs in the native mode, so switching down to a lower res. would not be an option. But hey, it's the Wintel people who seem to dwell on only specs, and no kind of real-world common-sense aesthetic sense. So I guess I see what mentality is leading to their argument, even if it is silly as all heck.
Aesthetics -- to say that any Wintel laptop on the planet can even BEGIN to compete with Apple laptops on this front is just plain goofy. If you think they can, you simply have no style. I'm sorry, but it's true. To some people, this is important. And aesthetics is more than looks. It's fit, form, polish, weight, heft, and all the people everywhere you go envying your computer. Wintel machines simply can't compete on this front, despite style-challenged opinions to the contrary.
Power -- I challenge somebody to point out an application that really requires much more power than these machines offer, for a portable. No, arguments about rendering video and 3D animation do not count, and there is a reason why -- in those kinds of applications, as fast as possible will ALWAYS be important, and as such, desktop machines will ALWAYS be more powerful. People wishing they could totally replace their desktop units with a portable, and thus discounting the Powerbooks as an option because they do not fit the bill, is ridiculous, because it's a pipe-dream that will never occur, as people will ALWAYS crave more power, and desktops will ALWAYS win. 98% of all laptop buyers are not doing so for powerhouse applications, so can we stop dwelling on this issue? I know a bunch of multimedia artists and music producers who put on incredible shows, all run in realtime from their machines. And guess what, the VAST majority use Macs. And we're talking older TiBooks and even iBooks here. Unless you are cracking the genetic code, or rendering a model of the Chunnel, you probably don't need as much power as you claim to need, in a laptop at least. Last time I checked, FCP could render most effects in realtime, for previews at least, which is all you're using during the vast majority of the production process. A 1 GHz G4 can handle dozens of tracks of audio playback, plus dozens of fx and softsynths, all in realtime. I know, because I can do that on my 4 year old G4 450 Sawtooth. When you do a final render, what does it matter if you start the render, go to sleep, and the machine finishes in 4 hours, versus starting the render, going to sleep, and finishing in 6 hours? Again, if you're trying to do hardcore pro-level rendering exclusively on a portable, and thus all the power you can get is important, you should not consider yourself a "pro," because that's not how pros work.
OS X, and the overall Mac experience. So valuable, it simply cannot be discounted, and people who do should not be Mac users (as in, we should not allow them to be, because they make us look bad, with their lack of common sense and decent judgment and all). Plus the iApps, which as far as basic movie-editing and DVD burning go, CAN NOT be beaten in the Windows world, or on any other platform for that matter. Or music playback/burning, for that matter, Or online music shopping. I could go on and on, but why should I have to? If you don't get it, you don't get it -- go away, and make virtual love to your Dell or Vaio or whatever else. Are they total crap as alternatives? No (their primary OS is, though). But this is a forum for people who DO see the value in the Mac experience, and if you don't meet that definition, you should probably get a cooler life than you currently have, and spend your time dwelling on things you DO care about. And if defending a computer platform to users of another platform is that thing, you should see a shrink. Really.
I could go on and on, but there's really no point. No point in even writing this, as the trolls will not go away, and the ridiculous debates will go on and on forever. Maybe it's time to find, or even start, a better Mac-oriented BBS, that does not allow trolls to take over and get in the way of decent conversations. Maybe it's time for the site's admin to really start moderating the forums. Maybe this post will get removed, and maybe I'll even be banned, because it's too inflammatory. What's sad is, it really ought to be the trolls who get banned. But for some reason, they are allowed to wreck havoc on an otherwise great site.
Are you sure that FW800 is just a marketing gimmick, that it'll be years before it's useful?
Barefeats test of FW800/FW400/USB2/ATA/SCSI
I actually do use in real life a WUXGA resolution screen. Admittedly, it's a matter of personal preference - my dad's eyes aren't good enough to be comfortable with the screen - but I absolutely love it. I most definitely thank the screen resolution gods every day that I work on a big spreadsheet, have multiple web browsing windows, have two word processing pages side by side. If I could trade in my current Powerbook for one that had a similar WUXGA screen as my PC notebook, I'd be super-happy.
Some of you may prefer nice big pixels and are satisfied with how much you currently can fit on the screen. All I'm pointing out is that Apple is _WAY_ behind state-of-the-art on screen resolution. All I'm asking for is a choice to be able to have a higher screen resolution Powerbook.
Apple should come up with automatic text and image scaling algorithms to go along with higher resolutions. Everyone wins.
It's not the 'wintel' mentality that wants a higher screen resolution. 1600x1200 does not mean you have to keep your fonts at the same size as they are - I think that rjstanford was talking about when he mentioned DPI was mostly ignored.
A higher resolution screen tends to mean crisper text, ability to view higher resolution images without scrolling/resizing, nice long iMovie timelines etc.
When Palm Pilots went from 160x160 to 320x320 (maybe higher now, I only have a 160x160 device
), I wonder if people complained, saying the fonts would be too small...A high resolution screen is *not* a bad thing, you don't have to squint, you increase the font size (not sure how to on a Mac). And on Mac, you can also increase the icon size on Finder quite easily. Toolbars seem to have multiple image sizes too I think?
Only problem with higher resolution screens is price
Sid - waiting til Panther before splashing out on a 15" PB
And ironically it is especially true for mac users, with the creative types using complicated apps like Photoshop or Final Cut with tons of little pallettes and controls around.
For myself I'm thinking pbook 12" with an extra 19" display for serious work. Though I might buy a dell display, hopefully this won't result in any sort of matter-antimatter explosion or anything.
There is another route to take to save you even more.
Sign up as student developer by paying $99
Then buy the hardware for one time:
15' 1GHz combo is US$1,599.00
On that one invoice you can add other stuff like iPod 40GB US$399, iSight US$119 etc...
Sign up as student developer by paying $99
Then buy the hardware for one time:
15' 1GHz combo is US$1,599.00
On that one invoice you can add other stuff like iPod 40GB US$399, iSight US$119 etc...
Originally posted by erik19
I go to university in Canada and DAMN I love the Apple Education Plan....just ordered me a 15' inch 1 Ghz PB , 512, combo, backlit keyboard .
What would normally cost 3098$ (CANADIAN dollars...1 CDN dollar = approx 73 cents US) costs 2771 with the Education Plan....327 bucks.... 10% off....
(I'm the sure the savings are the same in the US and across teh pond, but it sounds impressive when yor talking CDN dollars)
(And yeah, you might say i'm excited about my little purchase............until i get my credit card statement that is......student loans to the rescue?)
darn--was supposed to ship by 09/16/2003
Dear Valued Apple Customer,
We appreciate your recent Apple Store Order Wxxxxxxx
Due to an unexpected supply delay, we are unable to ship the following
item(s) by the date that you were originally quoted:
M8981LL/A, PBG4 15"/1.25GHZ/512/80/SD/APX/BT-USA
will now ship on or before 09/19/2003
Dear Valued Apple Customer,
We appreciate your recent Apple Store Order Wxxxxxxx
Due to an unexpected supply delay, we are unable to ship the following
item(s) by the date that you were originally quoted:
M8981LL/A, PBG4 15"/1.25GHZ/512/80/SD/APX/BT-USA
will now ship on or before 09/19/2003