New References to AMD Processors Discovered in macOS 10.15.4 Beta

[xyz01]

If you’re waiting for 10nm, the problem isn’t that Apple’s behind the curve.

You're right about that. That was what I initially waited for (it was just a tick away), and then that got further and further away while the rest of the platform stagnated a bit.

A Mac mini with an AMD APU, 802.11ax and an external 30" screen might be just what triggers a new purchase. My last 4 stationary Macs were iMacs, but now the hardware and the general platform feels stale.

 

[PostApple2016BrainWash]

You're right about that. That was what I initially waited for (it was just a tick away), and then that got further and further away while the rest of the platform stagnated a bit.

A Mac mini with an AMD APU, 802.11ax and an external 30" screen might be just what triggers a new purchase. My last 4 stationary Macs were iMacs, but now the hardware and the general platform feels stale.

Agreed. The new mac mini can be thinner and possibilities of being fanless like the 3rd-Gen Apple TV but Apple isn't even trying to push the boundary for that form factor.

 

[Tekguy0]

Apple GPUs haven't been PowerVR-based for years (depending on how significant you count Apple licensing IP from Imagination).

The line-up above seems very convoluted and not Jobs-ian. It would bring us back to the days of ca. 2017, when I had a hard time understanding let alone explaining to someone else why certain MacBook models exist. It's kind of nice that they've radically simplified it since.

I don't think the MB (in the 2015 fashion) and MBA should have ever existed side-by-side. Clearly, the MB was an attempt to reboot the Air, and it failed for several reasons (including Intel failing to deliver on Core M's promise). Instead, they brought back the Air. If they ever do an ARM-based small MacBook, it'll either have to be significantly different enough from the Air (I don't see how?), or it'll have to come with a plan to also kill the Air once and for all.

Also, Tiger Lake is a non-starter on the MBP. It's interesting on the MBA, but for the MBP, they'll have to stick to Comet Lake and Rocket Lake, i.e. 14nm. If they want to do Intel, that is. If they do go AMD, that becomes more interesting.



I can see bridgeOS taking up more tasks in order to extend battery life, yes.
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If they ever do remove the T2, it'll be because the entire machine is ARM, not because they have an AMD CPU.

Why would they have to stick to 14nm? 10nm should ramp up soon, or Apple can pay extra for the first chips soon. Ice Lake/Tiger Lake Y-series definitely make sense for the MBA13, and a high-powered, probably Intel architecture makes sense for the MBP16, unless Zen 3 is REALLY competitive, or it could be used as a base APU-powered model, at a lower price. The question is what to do with the MBP13. It probably all depends on how Zen 3 performs, as we have seen Ice Lake beats Zen 2 in the CPU department, and gets close to tying it in the GPU department (from the Surface Laptop devices). Given Apples preference for more powerful iGPUs (Iris graphics with eDRAM in the iMac+MBP for a while, and also using GT3 graphics in the Mac Mini and the MBA), it would be cool to see Zen 3 + iGPU in both MBP sizes. I also expect we will see much more usage of BridgeOS for background tasks. The MB12 ARM that I mentioned would serve more as an experiment to determine the long-term performance of running on an A-series chip than a true replacement for the MBA, kind of like the Surface Pro X. The PowerVR GPUs haven't been used since the A9 series of chips, but Apple does license IP from Imagination, though its not really clear where Imagination's IP stops and Apple's designs start. It is entirely possible that these AMD chips could make it into the iMac as well, especially for the non-Retina 21.5 in base model, which is still rocking 7th gen mobile chips and an iGPU. One thing a lot of people seem to forget now is that Intels current chips are quite similar to APUs in concept, once Intel moved the GPU onboard and made it so that an external chipset (PCH) is not really neccessary.

 

[MikeZTM]

Why would they have to stick to 14nm? 10nm should ramp up soon, or Apple can pay extra for the first chips soon. Ice Lake/Tiger Lake Y-series definitely make sense for the MBA13, and a high-powered, probably Intel architecture makes sense for the MBP16, unless Zen 3 is REALLY competitive, or it could be used as a base APU-powered model, at a lower price. The question is what to do with the MBP13. It probably all depends on how Zen 3 performs, as we have seen Ice Lake beats Zen 2 in the CPU department, and gets close to tying it in the GPU department (from the Surface Laptop devices). Given Apples preference for more powerful iGPUs (Iris graphics with eDRAM in the iMac+MBP for a while, and also using GT3 graphics in the Mac Mini and the MBA), it would be cool to see Zen 3 + iGPU in both MBP sizes. I also expect we will see much more usage of BridgeOS for background tasks. The MB12 ARM that I mentioned would serve more as an experiment to determine the long-term performance of running on an A-series chip than a true replacement for the MBA, kind of like the Surface Pro X. The PowerVR GPUs haven't been used since the A9 series of chips, but Apple does license IP from Imagination, though its not really clear where Imagination's IP stops and Apple's designs start. It is entirely possible that these AMD chips could make it into the iMac as well, especially for the non-Retina 21.5 in base model, which is still rocking 7th gen mobile chips and an iGPU. One thing a lot of people seem to forget now is that Intels current chips are quite similar to APUs in concept, once Intel moved the GPU onboard and made it so that an external chipset (PCH) is not really neccessary.

Because Intel HAVE TO stick to 14nm as 10nm is no where near "ramp up".
10nm Icelake CPU is less power efficient as 14nm cometlake. It doesn't beat its predecessor and let alone Zen2.

Intel claim with all those AVX512 advantage 15W Icelake is only faster than 15W 14nm Whiskeylake by 6% and is much slower than 15W 14nm Cometlake.

Running software without AVX512 will result in performance regression than last generation.

Intel 10nm is a joke.

 

[high heaven]

It would be interesting to see something like this (all theoretical):

MB12: Apple A13X or A13M, 8 GB, and a powerful Apple GPU (PowerVR Based, of Course) or Ice Lake at a very low TDP + T2 chip
MBA13: Intel Ice Lake Y i5/i7, 8/16 GB, Iris Graphics, T2
MBP13: AMD Ryzen 5/7, 8/16/32 GB, Radeon Graphics, T2
MBP16: (Here's where it gets interesting...)

• Base Model: Ice Lake/Tiger Lake with JUST Iris GPUs, and maybe 16 GB only, or AMD Ryzen 7 H-Series (could even be semi-custom) with Radeon graphics onboard and 16 GB only, perhaps $1699-$1999, and limit the storage options, essentially make this like the Mid 2009 15" base model, and the 2013-2015 15" base models
• Upgrade Model: Whatever Intel's fastest is, plus whatever the latest AMD GPU is, basically more of the same.

It would be cool to see the T3 act as another processor and do more background tasks, or even being able to run the OS at idle or while doing things like video decode, to switch off the main x86-64 CPU and save a lot of power. The T2 already probably has a built in GPU (for the touch bar), and could function as a chipset. Perhaps an A-Series chip would be better for that, especially if it could replace the T-series, such as "A13M" for Mac that combined the capabilities of T2 with the cores and more powerful GPU of the A-series chips. All of this would rule out hackintosh within a few years, but luckily Apple still made macs without the T2 as late as 2017 (the fn-keys MBP13). Pros want the x86, but for people just watching Netflix on their couch or on a plane where battery life and lightness are key, macOS running on ARM would really be the way to go. But first, fixing those keyboards...

EDIT: We could also see x86 and ARM cores on the same chip, ad AMD uses an ARM core for their Platform Security Processor and Intel does something similar by using a Quark based CPU. Multiple architectures can exist on the same chip.

16 inch uses Intel H series which both Ice lake and Tiger lake lacks.

 

[chucker23n1]

Why would they have to stick to 14nm?

For the same reason Intel is even still offering it (and continuing to evolve it): because Intel's 10nm just isn't available in volume.

10nm should ramp up soon, or Apple can pay extra for the first chips soon.

Apple doesn't need the first chips. They need the first millions of chips.

Ice Lake/Tiger Lake Y-series definitely make sense for the MBA13,

Yes. I said as much. (And it's also self-evident since there is no further 14nm Y-series upgrade path.)

Depending on when the next MBA upgrade ships, it will either go to Ice Lake-Y or skip that altogether towards Tiger Lake-Y.

and a high-powered, probably Intel architecture makes sense for the MBP16,

Ice Lake and Tiger Lake are complete non-starters on the MBP16, because -H is 14nm-only, and will likely remain that way until at least 2021.

The only line-up where 14nm vs 10nm is even a question is the MBP13, where Apple could theoretically go with Ice Lake/Tiger Lake, but I'm guessing will not. Comet Lake-U is simply a safer bet. They might skip it for Rocket Lake-U.

Not only has Intel announced absolutely nothing to that regard,

The question is what to do with the MBP13. It probably all depends on how Zen 3 performs,

Zen 2 on mobile hasn't even shipped.

as we have seen Ice Lake beats Zen 2 in the CPU department,

That's not what AMD claims. And since, again, Zen 2 hasn't actually shipped for relevant TDPs, we don't know either way.

It is entirely possible that these AMD chips could make it into the iMac as well, especially for the non-Retina 21.5 in base model, which is still rocking 7th gen mobile chips and an iGPU.

Why? That's a low-cost iMac model that barely should even exist.

If the goal is to make the CPU costs cheaper, investing in a whole different CPU vendor just for one single model won't achieve that. If the goal is to make the CPU beefier, it seems really silly to do so on the lowest end. Why make the crappiest iMac more powerful while leaving the ones above the same?

 

[smulji]

Because Intel HAVE TO stick to 14nm as 10nm is no where near "ramp up".
10nm Icelake CPU is less power efficient as 14nm cometlake. It doesn't beat its predecessor and let alone Zen2.

Intel claim with all those AVX512 advantage 15W Icelake is only faster than 15W 14nm Whiskeylake by 6% and is much slower than 15W 14nm Cometlake.

Running software without AVX512 will result in performance regression than last generation.

Intel 10nm is a joke.

That’s only true for the CPU. The iGPU on Ice Lake processors is a big jump in performance from their predecessors. But the one to watch for is Intel’s Tiger Lake

 

[PostApple2016BrainWash]

Because Intel HAVE TO stick to 14nm as 10nm is no where near "ramp up".
10nm Icelake CPU is less power efficient as 14nm cometlake. It doesn't beat its predecessor and let alone Zen2.

Intel claim with all those AVX512 advantage 15W Icelake is only faster than 15W 14nm Whiskeylake by 6% and is much slower than 15W 14nm Cometlake.

Running software without AVX512 will result in performance regression than last generation.

Intel 10nm is a joke.

Not only worse but Ice-lake IGPU isn't much better and only a few percent faster.

 

[DanBig]

I have no doubt, as a TSMC and AMD shareholder I follow the development of both closely. Fully expect AMD's 3rd gen Zen cores Q4 2020 on TSMC's N5 process, going to perhaps be the point AMD actually pulls in front of Intel in just just cores/cost/efficiency but in IPC and single threaded performance.

Intel is getting its' 10nm process going (well a version of it at least) but if it will be as competitive as TSMC's EUV 5nm is the question and one I highly doubt.

I agree Tim Cook lacks vision and is not the guy to be leading Apple - even if he is reaching new heights of profits - but I don't think Apple needs broken up, it's companies without any real competition that need broken up. Apple's walled garden on iOS approach is a benefit in my opinion.

The companies that need split is Amazon retail from AWS, Alphabet/Google, AT&T, Comcast/TWC. Those companies are genuine threats - also basically every major bank in America.

I think you miss-understood! Workgroups not spun off companies. Google went too far spinning off some divisions into stand alone companies.

Apple is also stifling some of their more creative folks as well. The larger the company gets the more often it happens.

 

[PostApple2016BrainWash]

For the same reason Intel is even still offering it (and continuing to evolve it): because Intel's 10nm just isn't available in volume.



Apple doesn't need the first chips. They need the first millions of chips.



Yes. I said as much. (And it's also self-evident since there is no further 14nm Y-series upgrade path.)

Depending on when the next MBA upgrade ships, it will either go to Ice Lake-Y or skip that altogether towards Tiger Lake-Y.

That's incorrect and misleading. The 2018-2019 MBA uses 2-cores i5-8210y and if it does not switch to AMD 4000 mobile then the next Intel 14nm Y-Series is from the comet-lake-y 4-cores i5-10210y for the 2020 MBA model.

 

[smulji]

Not only worse but Ice-lake IGPU isn't much better and only a few percent faster.

False. Ice Lake processors using the Intel Iris or Iris Plus iGPU are a big step up in performance vs previous generation Intel processors
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I don’t believe so. Ice Lake on the Air? Sure, if they have room for the TDP increase (7 to 9). On the Pro? They’ll just use Comet Lake instead.

2020 MacBook Pro 13" Vs Predecessor: Benchmark Leak Shows 30% GPU Lead

We've got an alleged benchmark for the 13" 2020 MacBook Pro today and it shows a 22% performance upgrade over its predecessor. Take a look!

wccftech.com

Also check out this thread

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1228636786517270529

 

[chucker23n1]

That's incorrect and misleading. The 2018-2019 MBA uses 2-cores i5-8210y and if it does not switch to AMD 4000 mobile then the next Intel 14nm Y-Series is from the comet-lake-y 4-cores i5-10210y for the 2020 MBA model.

You're correct that Comet Lake-Y is a thing; not sure why I wrote that. Oddly enough, even Intel seems confused about it; the 10210y is listed as Amber Lake.

 

[smulji]

You're correct that Comet Lake-Y is a thing; not sure why I wrote that. Oddly enough, even Intel seems confused about it; the 10210y is listed as Amber Lake.

Ice Lake is available in 9w sku with quad-cores

Intel says its 28W and 9W Ice Lake processors are coming soon this year

Intel says it's coming soon.

www.hardwarezone.com.sg

 

[Internet Enzyme]

Apple should have bought AMD a couple of years ago when they were at $2 per share. Would have given them even more control over the Macs graphics and now (possibly) processors.

But a major portion of AMDs business is supplying processors to the console manufacturers and other companies. Doesn't seem like such an acquisition would fit in with Apple's goals.

 

[PC_tech]

But a major portion of AMDs business is supplying processors to the console manufacturers and other companies. Doesn't seem like such an acquisition would fit in with Apple's goals.

Also people need to stop with this “Apple should just buy xxxx”, it’s quite annoying tbh.

 

[cmaier]

Also people need to stop with this “Apple should just buy xxxx”, it’s quite annoying tbh.

For sure.

 

[sakagura]

AMD side channel vulnerabilities discovered. People got to realize how difficult it is to design a processor, controller or software without flaws. It's almost impossible.

New AMD Side Channel Attacks Discovered, Impacts Zen Architecture (AMD Responds)

AMD processors from 2011 to 2019 impacted

www.tomshardware.com

That's why I ignore the waves of AMD mania every 7 years or any kind of 'David Vs Goliath' online mania for that matter. The David companies do produce good products but often their fans don't realize their products aren't as perfect or immune to problems as they believe. Sometimes the mania is marketing firms, day traders looking for a stock pump or share holders.

 

[chucker23n1]

AMD side channel vulnerabilities discovered. People got to realize how difficult it is to design a processor, controller or software without flaws. It's almost impossible.

New AMD Side Channel Attacks Discovered, Impacts Zen Architecture (AMD Responds)

AMD processors from 2011 to 2019 impacted

www.tomshardware.com

That's why I ignore the waves of AMD mania every 7 years or any kind of 'David Vs Goliath' online mania for that matter. The David companies do produce good products but often their fans don't realize their products aren't as perfect or immune to problems as they believe. Sometimes the mania is marketing firms, day traders looking for a stock pump or share holders.

Yup. There is no silver bullet. Intel really screwed up on 10nm, AMD has been doing well on Zen, and Apple has the best ARM design (and overall low-power design) by a long shot — but beyond that, Intel gets things right, and Apple and AMD get things wrong.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Intel gets things right

I know you have a disclaimer on “Intel screwing up on 10nm, but you can’t follow that up with “Intel gets things right”. i mean, they promised a chipset that would support LPDDR4, and I don’t think that’s ever going to happen in the mass market now due to LPDDR4X and LPDDR5. Will they support those? If they’re getting things right they will because it’s lower power, faster, and higher capacity in a surface mount package.

 

[foliage]

Benchmarks from LTT on AMD's new 7nm 35W chips are out, on par / beating 14nm 45W Intel i9.

I wonder how comparable the graphics will be between the semi-custom Van Gogh APU with NAVI RDNA2 will be vs the current Navi RDNA1 5300M/5500M in the 16' MBPs

 

[chucker23n1]

I know you have a disclaimer on “Intel screwing up on 10nm, but you can’t follow that up with “Intel gets things right”. i mean, they promised a chipset that would support LPDDR4, and I don’t think that’s ever going to happen in the mass market now due to LPDDR4X and LPDDR5. Will they support those? If they’re getting things right they will because it’s lower power, faster, and higher capacity in a surface mount package.

I must have missed this post.

So we know now the answer to that is 'yes' (cf. the MacBook Air), but we also kind of knew before that not only would Ice Lake finally bring a much nicer memory controller, but also, that it would be backported to Comet Lake-U.