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The point isn't about definitions, it's about the use. iOS has no need for a stylus/pencil, while many other 'touch-OSs' do or have. That's the context of Jobs' comment. Apple's Pencil (stylus, call it what you like) isn't primary about interacting with the UI, but about drawing (which wasn't Steve's context).

You could say roughly the same thing of the SP line, since while you can use the stylus to navigate, especially when you're dealing with Win32 apps, the touch based half of the UI isn't required for it.

Personally, I think the SP manages to straddle a happy medium. I'll admit that when I'm using it as a tablet, it's not as light as the iPad Air, and the app selection is still pretty wanting, especially when compared to the App Store. But for what I mostly use touch mode for, (reading, watching movies, occasional Word stuff, which I use the mobile app for) it works just fine.

Desktop mode is probably the least compromised, since I think (and this is gonna be pretty contentious) that the keyboard cover is actually a better keyboard than what's on the new MacBook, and the trackpad is about the closest I've seen a Windows machine be comparable to what Apple provides. While it might be a bit heavy as a tablet, it's just fine as a laptop.
 
If the things you want a turkey for can't be done with an eagle, then it makes no sense to get an eagle when it clearly won't suit your needs.

I am not going to be serving an eagle for dinner, that's one.

Didn't Franklin want the Turkey to be the symbol of America rather than the Eagle. I guess there's always people who want to be different.
 
I'd say MS makes a decent amount off their Surface lineup. They're sold at an almost Apple like profit margin, and are doing pretty solidly in the market.

The PC market was 62 million units last quarter... and the tablet market was 38 million units.

Where was Microsoft Surface in either market?

What is "solid" in terms of Microsoft?
 
The PC market was 62 million units last quarter... and the tablet market was 38 million units.

Where was Microsoft Surface in either market?

What is "solid" in terms of Microsoft?

They're selling well, and they're making money off of it. No, it's not selling a billion trillion zillion units a quarter like the iPhone or even the iPad. But that doesn't make it a failure. It's a niche product that's doing well.

The fact it now has its own set of clones, including, arguably, the iPad Pro, should be proof that it's a success within its intended market.
 
The point isn't about definitions, it's about the use. iOS has no need for a stylus/pencil, while many other 'touch-OSs' do or have. That's the context of Jobs' comment. Apple's Pencil (stylus, call it what you like) isn't primary about interacting with the UI, but about drawing (which wasn't Steve's context).

This is a fairy tale. Surface doesn't require pen for UI interaction. Having different input options is useful for different use cases such as when viewing/panning/zooming a Visio diagram touch is optimal, for working on Excel a keyboard with trackpoint or external mouse makes the most sense, for taking notes/drawing there's no substitute for pen (ever tried drawing with a trackpad or mouse? it's embarassing), for working in confined spaces like a flight the keyboard feels more premium and trackpad offers better palm rejection than Macbooks, etc. Switching to a Macbook after using something modern like a Surface feels like switching to a flintstone mobile that you have to peddle with your feet vs a car or in the case of iPad it's restrictive like switching to golf cart from car. I'm always trying to pan or zoom a document with touch then remember it's only a Macbook or stuck with blown up phone apps when needing to run professional software on the iPad. Two turkeys don't make an eagle.
 
Desktop mode is probably the least compromised, since I think (and this is gonna be pretty contentious) that the keyboard cover is actually a better keyboard than what's on the new MacBook, and the trackpad is about the closest I've seen a Windows machine be comparable to what Apple provides. While it might be a bit heavy as a tablet, it's just fine as a laptop.

Yes, it's basically a laptop with a touch-screen and semi-tablet OS over-layed. It should be a good laptop, within the constraints of hardware performance.

This is a fairy tale. Surface doesn't require pen for UI interaction. Having different input options is useful for different use cases such as when viewing/panning/zooming a Visio diagram touch is optimal, for working on Excel a keyboard with trackpoint or external mouse makes the most sense, for taking notes/drawing there's no substitute for pen (ever tried drawing with a trackpad or mouse? it's embarassing), for working in confined spaces like a flight the keyboard feels more premium and trackpad offers better palm rejection than Macbooks, etc. Switching to a Macbook after using something modern like a Surface feels like switching to a flintstone mobile that you have to peddle with your feet vs a car or in the case of iPad it's restrictive like switching to golf cart from car. I'm always trying to pan or zoom a document with touch then remember it's only a Macbook or stuck with blown up phone apps when needing to run professional software on the iPad. Two turkeys don't make an eagle.

Jobs made that comment in 2007 (like when the first real smart-phone was introduced, as limited as it was) and several years before the first iPad. Again, context is just a wee bit important. Do you remember the mobile devices of pre-2007?

And, I think you might be a bit mixed up, as the MacBook is a laptop running OS X (macOS), not blow-up phone apps. And, even the iPad doesn't run blow-up phone apps, unless you're just poking fun.

That said, yes, if I had to get serious work done, I'd probably pick a Surface over an iPad. That's because Apple made some really dumb decisions with iOS (which could easily be fixed if they got their heads on straight).

I spent nearly 2 years after the iPad 2 came out running only an iPad when mobile. It could be done, but wasn't optimal unless your work was limited (ex: a writer). But, it was also better at some things (ex: giving a presentation, or using on a flight/train). And, it was really good in small meetings (like meeting a client at a coffee shop) for note-taking without seeming too tech-intrusive.

With some of the advancements since in hardware and software, it would be far easier and more capable than it was with my iPad 2. But, for many jobs, still wouldn't cut it in terms of productivity. It's a trade-off you've got to be willing to make.
 
Actually, it's not just the comic con but also at the local coffeehouse in the college town I live at where Surface tablets are becoming common. You should hit college campuses and other places away from Apple stores that you camp at too frequently. You're likely to see more MS and Chromebooks around.

You can keep the milk and cookies.

Pokemon? Please. I don't roll that garbage. I grew up with REAL anime back in the day before Pokemon.

Ps. Ingress is far better than PokeGo, btw.

I did see someone using a Surface on a train once. That's honestly the only time I've ever seen one out in the wild.

I've never played either game. I have no doubt both are terrible and I have no interest in wasting my time trying to play either of them.
 
I'd say MS makes a decent amount off their Surface lineup. They're sold at an almost Apple like profit margin, and are doing pretty solidly in the market. Though to your benefit, it probably is about the only hardware they're making money off of.

well it took till SP3 for it to become a decent product, and given apple has restricted the iPad pro to iOS, the surface is filling a gap, and its popular. Well done microsoft
 
The funny thing... Mac Rumor's got a bug. The message you quoted isn't mine even though it says that I've said that... how weird.

You should report the flaw on Macrumors to an administrator. They can investigate the issue.
 
It is true that the Surface has touch screen, detachable keyboard, better screen resolution and faster than Mac Book Air. However in my case, Windows without a keyboard is useless and touch is uncomfortable because Windows is not designed for touch, I don't believe in Surface products because as a Windows laptop I think there are better laptops out there (design, performance) and as a tablet is frustrating for me using Windows without a mouse and keyboard.

I have a laptop with touch screen and I don´t use the touch screen, main reason is because I don´t need it and the second reason is because I have to clean the screen before switching to mouse and keyboard, moving the mouse pointer, having a lot of windows, small icons and buttons in a screen that has fingerprints is distracting, and is worse if you have a dark theme or many dark areas in your windows. For some reason that doesn't bothers me on my iPad, I see fingerprints when is off and that when I clean it.

The ad is like other MS ads, kind of dump, at least "I´m a Mac and I´m a PC" were more creative. They should make an ad about how Apple thinks that they can still innovate and most of MacRumor´s forums says the opposite.

Surface as a laptop is inferior in design to other devices that are just laptops with a keyboard (weight distribution, keyboard and trackpad quality).
Surface as a tablet is not that good because it runs a desktop OS.

As a result:

iPad + MacBook > Surface. Are you really sure you can have it all in one machine? As today, I don´t think so.
 
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I work at an electronic a store that won't be named I see a lot of Surface Pros being returned I don't know if that means anything just my two cents
 
Where was Microsoft Surface in either market?
I don't know numbers, but from what I've read the surface pro is popular, so much so you can't help notice that as a lot of positive reviews, and people buying them, apple rolls out a tablet that has a type cover like the SP, a stylus like the SP and the size of the SP. Just saying its an awful coincidence ;)

I have a laptop with touch screen and I don´t use the touch screen, main reason is because I don´t need it
Not for nothing, I always use my touchscreen, for example sometimes its just plain easier to flick a web page with your finger then use the touch pad

I did see someone using a Surface on a train once. That's honestly the only time I've ever seen one out in the wild.
I don't see them no the train, but then I take the subway and the only thing I see is people using kindles.

I was at Oracle's Open world and I saw more Surface Pros then I saw MacBooks, I was one of few people trying to type on my MBP to take notes while most others were writing notes with their styluses.
 
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I don't know numbers, but from what I've read the surface pro is popular, so much so you can't help notice that as a lot of positive reviews, and people buying them, apple rolls out a tablet that has a type cover like the SP, a stylus like the SP and the size of the SP. Just saying its an awful coincidence ;)

I was just trying to figure out what the other comment was saying: Surface is doing "solidly" in the "market"

He's the one who made the claim.

Which market? And what does "solidly" mean?

I already said the PC market was 62 million units last quarter and the tablet market was 38 million.

But we know the entire Surface line is lucky if they sell a million units in a quarter.

That doesn't sound "solid" to me ;)
 
But we know the entire Surface line is lucky if they sell a million units in a quarter.
MS doesn't release numbers for the Surface products but as near as I could find on the google, it does appear to be "solid"
Microsoft Surface sales top expectations, at 2.5 million in Q4 2015, 6M for the whole year
According to “Taiwan-based supply chain” sources quoted by Digitimes, Surface-series sales hit 2.5 million between October and December, and a remarkable 6 mil for the entirety of last year, exceeding “market” expectations of just 4M.

While a bit dated (Feburary of 2015), I think it does show a strong performance. I'm not comparing it to the iPad but just pointing out that 2.5 million units for a quarter is (imo) pretty solid :)
 
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remember I'm a Mac and I'm PC?

Apple used to do it all the times!
And in the old days, my teacher would tape the mouths of any students who wouldn't stop talking in class. And if I complained to my parents, they would say "Serves you right for misbehaving in class" and punish me double. These days, you could get suspended just for daring to trim the hair of a student with long hair. Expect a long letter to the ministry if a teacher dares so much as lay a finger on their precious child.

Times are different, expectations are different, and what was once considered acceptable in the past may no longer be valid or relevant today.
 
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Would you approve of a teacher trimming a student's long hair today?
If the student was recalcitrant, and repeatedly refused to have his hair cut despite having the consequences laid out clearly for him right from the start, why not?
 
If the student was recalcitrant, and repeatedly refused to have his hair cut despite having the consequences laid out clearly for him right from the start, why not?
Oops... didn't notice you were from Singapore.
 
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I'm not quite sure what the relationship between hair length and learning is?

big_thumb.jpg
 
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Maybe I don't want a 3:2 tablet because my classroom whiteboard has a 4:3 aspect ratio (which incidentally, the iPad uses).

#four by three forever
#expressing myself with a pound sign, amidoinitrite

Microsoft melody man keyboard player said:
it's slower, heavy, and a… bit square

I prefer 4:3 picture shape (sometimes so-called "square screen" aspect ratio) over shortscreen (3:2 and shorter) and squatscreen (8:5, especially 16:9 and squatter). I am not alone. Squarer laptop is a feature.
 
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The spec bumps people are demanding don't deliver very significant performance gains. The current hardware on sale is fine for most people.

What??! 5 year old hardware sold for almost the same price as 5 years ago is fine in your eyes?? In the tech world 6 months old hardware is considered old. Apple should do these spec bumps every year to justify those prices! What do you expect? A spec bump is all we need! What else should there be? A new designed outer shell every two years? Screw that, give us a faster CPU, GPU and bigger SSDs every year!
 
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