New thinner iMac

[russofris]

In what way would it fail, if you never used it? How would you even know if it failed? It should never even be spinning up if there's nothing in it.

You're correct. My 2006 iMac 'should not' make a motorboat sound on occasion.

I did some research on this, and it seems to involve spending $200 on an ISO (vs. $100 on an OEM DVD), downloading it, and using some tool (that looked like it might require Windows itself) to get that ISO onto a USB stick properly? I haven't seen anywhere that I can just buy a USB stick with the OS on it.

Two paths can be taken here.
1: Buy an external ODD (We'll call this $50-ish on the low end, $100 on the high end, $300 if you buy it from Apple).
or:
2: Buy a retail DVD ($100). Buy a 8GB USB stick for $10. Find a system with an ODD and "dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/dev/sr0". You now have a windows USB stick.

F

 

[forty2j]

LOL, none of the ODD supporters are complaining about a lack of bluray.

You guys are just afraid of losing something. If Apple had adopted bluray, then you'd be freaking out at the proposition of losing that. But since they didn't, you aren't even bothered by it.

OWNED

Hi, Troll.

Really? "Owned"? This isn't a boss fight, nor is it PVP.


I have never owned a BD disc or player, and I never will. For the limited amount of video consumption I do, my DVR suits me just fine, and streaming supplements it. While I have a decent collection of DVDs, I have determined I don't need to own movies.

For software distribution, I still get at least half on physical media, rather than digitally.

 

[iMacFarlane]

2: Buy a retail DVD ($100). Buy a 8GB USB stick for $10. Find a system with an ODD and "dd if=/dev/cdrom of=/dev/sr0". You now have a windows USB stick.

Whoa . . . I know Kung Fu!

Although I don't have the 'motorboat' issue with my 2009 iMac, it happens ALL THE TIME in my Dell WinXP laptop. Almost everytime I open an explorer window, the computer freezes, the slow wind up to vibrational instability of the DVD drive happens, then the computer unfreezes and I can continue doing what I was doing. It's annoying, for sure.

I think the main argument we have going on in this thread is: just what does ALL mean in ALL-IN-ONE?

Sure, we could lose the ODD if only a minority of users are affected, but for what gain? Lower production cost? Smaller form factor? Re-purposing the vacant volume?

 

[paulbee]

LOL, none of the ODD supporters are complaining about a lack of bluray.

You guys are just afraid of losing something. If Apple had adopted bluray, then you'd be freaking out at the proposition of losing that. But since they didn't, you aren't even bothered by it.

OWNED

Yeah, this is the other thing about the ODD. I occasionally need to access Blu-ray video content on my computer. Since the iMac has never included a Blu-ray drive, this means that after I switch (waiting for the upcoming model), I will need an external ODD no matter what. This renders an internal drive completely redundant for my purposes. Since Apple refuses to adopt the most recent disc-based format, why not just make the ODD totally external so people can choose an ODD according to their needs--those that don't need one don't get one, those that need CD/DVD get a SuperDrive, and those who need BRD get an appropriate third-party drive.

 

[Stolz25]

LOL, none of the ODD supporters are complaining about a lack of bluray.

You guys are just afraid of losing something. If Apple had adopted bluray, then you'd be freaking out at the proposition of losing that. But since they didn't, you aren't even bothered by it.

OWNED

There are a ton of threads about people complaining about a lack of blu-ray or hoping for blu-ray to be added. However, there is an actual reasonable cause for that not to be included in iMacs. It's cost prohibitive for Apple.

I wish it had one personally, and I'd certainly use it if it did.

 

[russofris]

Whoa . . . I know Kung Fu!

dd = a program that copies blocks of data (not files, but the actual blocks of raw data)
if = input file handle
/dev/cdrom = your ODD.. Not a file on the disk, not a partition, but the actual raw device
of = output file handle
/dev/sr0 = the file handle commonly associated with the 'first' usb drive attached to a system
You now know Kung Fu, though really all you need to know is copy/paste (another ancient Chinese art)

I think the main argument we have going on in this thread is: just what does ALL mean in ALL-IN-ONE?

Sure, we could lose the ODD if only a minority of users are affected, but for what gain? Lower production cost? Smaller form factor? Re-purposing the vacant volume?

I'll concede to that. The gains are exactly as you stated, and have been echoed throughout the thread in different forms and dispositions.

1: Fewer mechanical parts = reliability/longevity
2: Fewer parts = lower or repurposed production costs
3: Fewer parts = smaller form factor or repurposed space.

I'd be fine to see it go, and to purchase a single external ODD to share between my Air, MBP, and iMac. Aside from the aesthetics of an external drive (which I haven't seen brought up yet), I am really having trouble reconciling with the other counterarguments.

 

[Occamsrazr]

I will need an external ODD no matter what. This renders an internal drive completely redundant for my purposes. Since Apple refuses to adopt the most recent disc-based format, why not just make the ODD totally external so people can choose an ODD according to their needs--those that don't need one don't get one, those that need CD/DVD get a SuperDrive, and those who need BRD get an appropriate third-party drive.

Exactly! That's my point... Everyone here is pretending that DVD is the end-all be-all of media formats, when its an ancient technology. I could understand if they were begging apple to switch the superdrive to bluray - heck, I'd probably agree with them if they did, but they aren't doing that. All they care about is keeping DVD around...

 

[yinz]

I use mine to rip dvds a couple times a week.

Perfect, you'd be one of those people that would buy this accessory.

That's probably true, but that doesn't change my statement. If most of the movies are crap the few decent ones are going to be extremely high grossing.

I actually laughed at this comment. Thanks, I don't disagree with your logic here.

First, that would be tough to say, since at the time the plans were combined. I used streaming when it was included in my DVD plan but I dropped it when they broke the plans up. And a lot of other people did too.

Second, it really makes no sense. Their streaming selection absolutely sucks. If you want to watch 50 year old movies or last season's TV shows (which is what I use it for) it's fine, but if you want to see a fairly recent release, good luck.

Heck, if I go to "new" releases in the streaming section right now I still see Limitless (which has been on the list for a good 6 months). And surrounding that a bunch of crap I've never heard of.

Really? That's too bad, but you do have iTunes as another option for latest stuff, so no loss there. I'm not familiar with Netflix's internal business protocol, so I don't have any further statements here.

I never said that just because a feature was still here that the majority of people use it. But I suppose it's easier to argue against a strawman than the real argument.

Feature: DVDs and blue rays
Your assumption: vast majority use it

the vast majority of people still have a dvd or blu ray player in the house for movies.

Also, this whole debate is based in the premise that the optical drive is there and your assumption that it's still in popular use, so I don't see how my argument can be called a straw an argument.

Agreed, but that depends on people forking over a few hundred more for an iDevice or several thousand for a mac. As I said, I use it, but it's hardly the solution for everyone.

Ok, so are we no longer talking about macs? If that is the case, then I think a simple av cable isn't a few hundred dollars. I think an hdmi cable is roughly $50 and an AV cable is like $20, which are not expensive solutions to connect your computer to a tv. I think we are getting off topic with this discussion here though... Lol

This is untrue. Several of my favorite apps (HBOgo for instance) don't allow you to airplay. And if what I want to watch is my DVD then apple tv isn't going to help.

Yes, I learned about this yesterday. That's unfortunate. I don't watch HBO, so it's not applicable to me, but I hear some people are canceling it because of this restriction. It's really HBO's fault. You should complain.

By itself the apple tv is a $99 media streamer, and there are cheaper options out there. Heck, the Roku can stream amazon, netflix and about 500 other things the apple tv can't do. And it's cheaper. The only reason I use apple tv over that is because of my personal media collection. Which is on DVD. Which I ripped to watch on my apple tv.

. Yes, I've read the debates for the cheaper roku, but I really don't think they are the same class of thing. Sure I mean, the roku is a more affordable set top box with more factory options, but the apple tv is more than a simple tv provider. It works so well with your other apple products it essentially turns your tv not a large idevice and soon a 42" Mac. What's more is that it can turn any cheapo or expensive tv with an hdmi port into this massive computer thing. It just has so much potential, it's hard to compare it with the roku. In a vacuum, the roku is better, but the apple tv isn't in a vacuum and has many other devices to interact with. Man, I'm way off topic now. I just really enjoy my apple tv.

I built it, and the only thing that has a problem on it at all is iTunes. It can easily run one of the most advanced CAD systems they make, but iTunes kills it. The reason is that the iTunes library I have is on a NAS, which iTunes doesn't seem to like (though why it matters is beyond me). And my iTunes library consists of several terabytes of data as well.

I was just joking. I assume everyne on this forum who has a windows computer probably built it. What I meant by it is, maybe you should troubleshoot it out on the apple forum.

An inch is an inch, now or in the future. And you probably aren't even going to get an inch. I don't think the superdrive is that thick.

What I meant by that is, if you make it an inch thinner now, it will open opportunities for the device to be even thinner in the future. I don't know how else to reword it. I'm not talking about the same machine as much as I am technology as a whole. I hope you get what I mean.

, why not just make the ODD totally external so people can choose an ODD according to their needs--those that don't need one don't get one, those that need CD/DVD get a SuperDrive, and those who need BRD get an appropriate third-party drive.

This is what I agree with.

Exactly! That's my point... Everyone here is pretending that DVD is the end-all be-all of media formats, when its an ancient technology. I could understand if they were begging apple to switch the superdrive to bluray - heck, I'd probably agree with them if they did, but they aren't doing that. All they care about is keeping DVD around...

Yep, I agree. Stolz25 is probably the only exception. He loves compact disks, blue rays, reading and burning stuff (he does this several times a week). I honestly believe he needs an optical drive, but the rest of us don't really need a built in one..

 

[kitsunestudios]

Exactly! That's my point... Everyone here is pretending that DVD is the end-all be-all of media formats, when its an ancient technology. I could understand if they were begging apple to switch the superdrive to bluray - heck, I'd probably agree with them if they did, but they aren't doing that. All they care about is keeping DVD around...

You're talking about futureproofing. The people complaining are talking about preserving backwards compatibility. Completely different arguments.

 

[notsosmartguy]

just sharing some thoughts...

I happen to be someone who still need to burn dvds in big files business. I guess I don't mind Apple dropping the ODD for better quality machine. On the other hand it means that I need to pay extra for the external ones. Some can argue it's not that much but it's still money... anyway, think about this situation, what if Apple includes the external ODD as an option but not with extra money? Will you take it? If it's indeed that the majority of people don't need it, Apple wouldn't lose too much of money right?

Another angle I'm looking at it is that, Apple (and many other companies) makes more and more money because they give you those products out of thin air, while we still have to dish out huge amount of money (in accumulation) to get it. Call me old school or anything, I guess on one part that I feel I purchase a real thing if I have something physical, and I think I have a feeling of owning something compare to just some virtual digital files, like photos, I don't think you can replace that just looking at the digital files on screen... anyway, I guess I can look at it as that having the ODD there is in some rebellious way that I feel I can have the options, (other than my regular usage) rather than just 'forced' to follow whatever kind of system they set up for us... moving forward doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of the old things. Some may say if I scratch the dvd, it's no use and I have to buy another one. But don't we all need to back up our files and such, in case the computer or external hard drives got corrupted or died? I understand that we have to move forward and all that, which I agree in an evolution ideal... but just the concept of things becoming virtual is kinda scary to me. I can imagine how these companies laughing their way up, and we general people always suffer.

Just some thoughts... (and by the way, I like Apple products)

 

[mapleleafer]

I bet the ODD, no-ODD debate has a correlation with age. The no-ODDers have probably never bought a record, then cassette tapes, maybe some 8-tracks for the car, then CDs, then DVDs. They may not have tired of buying the same music more than once, or of copying it from one format to another. I won't be around in 50 years, but I bet a similar debate will, and then the no-ODDers will understand the plight of the ODDers, and maybe the plight of those who remember when computers use to only compute. Now they are toys, and toys have to be cool.

 

[Stolz25]

Perfect, you'd be one of those people that would buy this accessory.

And again, I have no issue with that. I doubt I'd buy it, I'd just rip them on my windows computer and move it to my NAS from there. But that's not my point. The idea that it's worth pulling something that is still quite useful in order to save an inch on a desktop is what I have a problem with.

There are a few things I'd rather have than a DVD rom. Better graphics card, extra HDD, or I'd even use a tv tuner. What I have a problem with is taking functionality to make it prettier (and only barely that).

Feature: DVDs and blue rays
Your assumption: vast majority use it

No, I said most people still have DVD players and collections in the house. I doubt there are a lot of people actually ripping them to the computer. However, because many people still use DVDs, that makes movies on DVD a viable option for quite a while. It's currently by far the cheapest way to buy movies, especially when you looked at the used market (which goes away when you buy a digital download). It's currently cost prohibitive to buy from iTunes. I really really hope that changes, but I doubt it will because the content providers are dead set against streaming.

Yes, I learned about this yesterday. That's unfortunate. I don't watch HBO, so it's not applicable to me, but I hear some people are canceling it because of this restriction. It's really HBO's fault. You should complain.

That's just one example.

. Yes, I've read the debates for the cheaper roku, but I really don't think they are the same class of thing. Sure I mean, the roku is a more affordable set top box with more factory options, but the apple tv is more than a simple tv provider. It works so well with your other apple products it essentially turns your tv not a large idevice and soon a 42" Mac.

Again, this assumes you have other idevices. Even if you have a mac it doesn't add a lot of functionality to the apple tv besides being able to stream a few shows. You can buy a movie for roku off amazon just as easily as you can buy a movie from iTunes for apple tv. You can currently stream espn3, hbogo and hulu to roku using playon. You can't get any of that on Apple tv.

Apple's main advantage over that box is being able to stream your personal media collection through itunes, which you can't do if you can't rip that media collection. And really, it's not an advantage anymore, since playon can do the same thing.

What's more is that it can turn any cheapo or expensive tv with an hdmi port into this massive computer thing.

So can any laptop.

What I meant by that is, if you make it an inch thinner now, it will open opportunities for the device to be even thinner in the future. I don't know how else to reword it. I'm not talking about the same machine as much as I am technology as a whole. I hope you get what I mean.

And again, thinness on a desktop computer is not high priority. To a point, sure, but millimeters doesn't gain you anything.

 

[Occamsrazr]

1000 millimeters would be a lot. Just because you used a small unit of measurement doesn't prove your point.

 

[thekev]

Ok thanks!

Still, it's an awesome concept.

Hehe... it's actually a stupid concept. Note how the image depicted has fewer ports than the thunderbolt display today. When you drop lower in port allocation than you would get from a laptop + display/docking station, you just ate another function of a desktop computer. Really if anyone thinks they'd gain space from an even thinner imac, they should stick to a laptop or ipad as those can be stored when not in use. You'd really gain very little space in return for what you do lose. Now if short range wireless bus standards actually worked properly, it might make more sense. It just doesn't make any sense today beyond the point of being a novelty concept design. It's one of those things where Apple fans on these sites are conditioned to think that anything visually appealing and thin equates to a better product.

 

[Occamsrazr]

What do I lose? An ODD from the mid 90s? Oh god, I'll have to go find some parachute pants to wear as I cry about this.

 

[lifeguard90]

ya know we all keep bantering about the odd, screen size, this and that, what it will have , what it won't... When in reality nothing we say now as any impact. face it, the iMac we are about to see in days or weeks has been designed for quite some time and likely has been or is being built now. so all of this is mute really. Now when it gets released we can discuss what certain BTO options are beneficial; but even that is relative to the user. Im fine with the odd in personally, but if its gone owell. The cpu, gpu and ssd type is most important.

What we should drive our focus to is stock, shipping times and when its coming. ( * yes there is a thread for such points) but still. really the "when" is more crucial here

 

[aPple nErd]

UGLYYY!!!!! i want the "chin"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ellaimac]

Guys, The CD drive/ ODD is still needed because of games like Sims 3, I remember wanting to put that game on MBA but can't, so the seller at my local CD store told me to use a PC, you know what happened next? BSOD every few minutes of playing

 

[cocky jeremy]

Your argument amounts to "complete multivitamins are now available, so humans should come without stomachs".

There's a world of difference between using emergent tech, and forcing it in areas where it isn't ready.

Apple should not keep technology in a computer because maybe 10% of people still use it. That's idiotic. If they did that we'd have everything ever put in computers still in every computer made. a 35" CRT monitor with 55 types of ports in the back. It's dumb. End of story. Live in the past all you want, sooner or later the ODD is dead. Probably sooner.

 

[paulbee]

Guys, The CD drive/ ODD is still needed because of games like Sims 3, I remember wanting to put that game on MBA but can't, so the seller at my local CD store told me to use a PC, you know what happened next? BSOD every few minutes of playing

Sims 3 for Mac is available as a digital download from Amazon.com. Really, there's some stuff out there, but the amount of recent media content that's not available as a legitimate download from some source is relatively small. For the rest, it isn't that hard (or that expensive) to use an external drive.

I totally understand the school of thought that says why not keep the drive, but really, the more discussion there is on the subject, the more persuaded I get that there's little harm in axing it for any reason, whether it's to replace it with something else or just to offset the cost of another component.

 

[iSayuSay]

Apple should not keep technology in a computer because maybe 10% of people still use it. That's idiotic. If they did that we'd have everything ever put in computers still in every computer made. a 35" CRT monitor with 55 types of ports in the back. It's dumb. End of story. Live in the past all you want, sooner or later the ODD is dead. Probably sooner.

Sure. Tech is all about progress. DVD and bluray could already be gone or replaced by something new and better in a few years. But you're talking too soon to bash ODD now. Most people STILL use ODD (be it Bluray or DVD). ODD users are not living in the past. It's still the now tech. Most developers, producers still sell their contents on that rounded optical media. Maybe in your little AppStore world everything is on the cloud, being downloaded and you assume most people on earth have 1Gbps home connection to chew up 10GB of downloads or streamed content in a couple of secs. What if I dont have decent internet? Can I bring my own HDD to Apple and ask to buy and copy contents from AppStore?

Optical is still the cheapest, easiest, most practical way to distribute software, movies, games which sized in GBs. If ODD is dying, why they dont sell games or software in a USB stick then?
If anything, only a little portion of overall laptop drop ODD completely for the sake of thinness like MBA and all ultrabooks. Having external ODD is not the same as having it built in, it can be not there when you need it. Most laptop and computer out there still need it for many reasons. It's not in the past yet.

You might wanna argue and compare it to the death of floppy, or many legacy ports. But floppy didnt have added value over optical. It has smaller capacity, low read/write speed, cannot be made any cheaper, and so it was a dead end. But optical media has all the sweet spot, capacity is reasonably enough, it can be mass produced easily and inexpensive, it's thin enough to be caried around and it's still darn popular. You don't need internet to own the content. DVD is 14 years old, but mouse and keyboard are 30 years old, maybe you live in muucch more past for still using keyboard in your computer.

 

[iMacC2D]

Removed.

 

[krzykat]

I don't use my ODD much, but I'm glad I have the option. It's nice for burning DVDs of photos for friends or family-- quality is better than if you get it from an online site. While I may download music , I do like to be able to burn a CD for my car--- I don't have an iPhone or iPod-- quite happy with my Droid and my MP3 player. 'Cloud' technology isn't quite there yet, and how safe is it? I don't see a lot of software out on USB, though I suppose a lot is available at the App store, but there is a part of me that likes having a physical copy of certaia programs. The only software I bought for my iMac, I bought on DVD, though I had to go to the downloaded version because the company could not fix a printing problem for the DVD version after Lion came out. Now when I make cards, I have to wait for it to download the various cards.

5 1/4 floppy drives were replaced by 3 1/5 floppy drives which was replaced by CD and now DVD and BluRay... If the ODD is going to be removed, what will it be replaced by that has the same function and more? Why would I want to spend the money on an iMac if I have to also buy an external ODD? It's a desktop computer and All In One so it should include what people need. Now maybe in the future (4-5 years down the road-- possibly sooner) once the Cloud is more established and safety is proven and other ways of getting software(App store and USB) are more common, then it would make sense to drop the ODD.

 

[nuckinfutz]

You might wanna argue and compare it to the death of floppy, or many legacy ports. But floppy didnt have added value over optical. It has smaller capacity, low read/write speed, cannot be made any cheaper, and so it was a dead end. But optical media has all the sweet spot, capacity is reasonably enough, it can be mass produced easily and inexpensive, it's thin enough to be caried around and it's still darn popular. You don't need internet to own the content. DVD is 14 years old, but mouse and keyboard are 30 years old, maybe you live in muucch more past for still using keyboard in your computer.

When Apple killed the floppy the cheapest DVD recorder was about $1000. The next step up from a floppy at that time was the then popular Iomega Zip drive. Which Apple did have as an option in some of their larger Macs.

I'm totally happy to keep optical drives....as optional purchases. I don't want to pay for jimmy joe's lack of decent broadband in the form of subsidizing a drive he should be buying on his own.

 

[mapleleafer]

I'm totally happy to keep optical drives....as optional purchases.

Now that's a good thought. As iMacC2d says, removing the ODD would have little impact on the thickness of an iMac. So the customer can decide to have one or not. I hope Apple has had the same thought.