New York Times: Apple Gearing Up to Take Apple TV to the Next Level

If the idea is to sell a lot of this next-gen :apple:TV, we can't take these kinds of positions....Give the market what it wants, and sell a ton of next-gen :apple:TVs.

On the software side, an open platform...

While I agree with nothing you said on the hardware side of your post, I agree with everything you said on the software side.

The problem with your hardware list is how you define the purpose of this device. For me (and Apple) it is for streaming, and perhaps in the future (hopefully!) other apps will run on it, but the content from them will be streamed, a la this big migration of everything to the cloud.

This device isn't for recording. The item you watched is already recorded and stored somewhere else (perhaps your desktop), so the DVR functionality will never be there, and shouldn't be.

Same with blu-ray - optical media has an end of life hopefully soon. In the new digital age, physical (mobile) media makes no sense. It's just a next generation floppy, and with proper bandwidth and connections it's completely unnecessary - it's really a way for enforce DRM, which is all about profit protection.

I love your software ideas, and I would support all of them.

I have a question about running iOS which seems to be the popular prediction for the device's OS - how would you control it? I don't really understand the interface paradigm. I understand a remote to control it, but how is it going to know when you touch to click versus touch to select - it needs a modified pointer or something, right? Which goes against the touch interface.

Running games on it would be great, and all the other services you could install would be great. I'm all for them, and that would motivate me to actually bin my current ATV for the new one! But no blu-ray and no DVR - task specific functionality, and not an "everything for everyone" device. That's my 2 cents.
 
Wow, my TV already streams movies without additional hardware from online services and videos on my computer.

All they need to do to make this a nice product is add a drive so you can play your existing stuff as well and then I'd buy it.

It is my opinion that they keep missing the boat on this one.

They could never add enough storage at an affordable price to hold my content. I'm not done ripping my DVDs and I'm well over 2 terabytes of DVDs, Music and Photos. And those items are not going to exist solely on a playback device. So if I had a copy on my ATV as well as on my server, I'd be looking at 6TB of space. No thanks. I'll stick to streaming and managing only 1 copy of content.
 
samsung has a long list of apps for their 2009 and 2010 model TV's. my FIL's LG TV is pretty cool in that you can set Netcast to display a picture of the current weather when you browse the online parts.

big complaint is that Yahoo Widgets are slow which they are
 
They could never add enough storage at an affordable price to hold my content. I'm not done ripping my DVDs and I'm well over 2 terabytes of DVDs, Music and Photos. And those items are not going to exist solely on a playback device. So if I had a copy on my ATV as well as on my server, I'd be looking at 6TB of space. No thanks. I'll stick to streaming and managing only 1 copy of content.

My bad, I meant a DVD/BLU Ray drive. I already have a PC that I use for my ripped collection and playing physical disks. I'd like to use the machine elsewhere and replace it with something little, but not if it can't even play disks.
 
at $99 this would be awesome.
add a tv tuner in it and i would buy 50

I been saying that since. They firSt came out with Apple TV. They would have made a killing in so many ways here in the states when the Feds here mandated all over the air tv to go digital! Can you imagine how many they would have sold? Not to mention all the new customers that they would have, that now had a method to buy music and TV programs from Apple. Also, the fed were giving people rebates for up to 2 converter boxes per household! I would much rather of had an Apple TV box with a digital tuner then these cnverter boxes.

Well here's hoping they do add an HDTV digital tuner this time around! ;)
 
The problem with your hardware list is how you define the purpose of this device. For me (and Apple) it is for streaming, and perhaps in the future (hopefully!) other apps will run on it, but the content from them will be streamed, a la this big migration of everything to the cloud.

That's the Koolaid. People don't buy in volume because some guy(s) somewhere decides to define the purpose of a device. They buy devices that let's them do what they want. Ford could say that a given car's purpose is for driving up steep hillsides on dirt roads, but that significantly reduces the appeal of that car except to people who want a car locked into that specific utility.

I appreciate the concept that the current :apple:TV is "an ipod for your TV", and thus the purpose of the device comes with all the use limitations therein. BUT- and this is key- we've had that for 4 years now. It's not selling that well. More of the same probably won't sell that well either.

Companies either give the market what it wants or they try to make the market want it they way they want to give it. Individuals are not the market. So you appreciating the purpose of the device such that other features that don't interest you personally is not the market for a next-gen :apple:TV unless everyone else feels exactly as you do.

The idea of a next-gen :apple:TV I put forth (including the hardware concepts) gives you exactly what you seem to want, as well as giving lots of other people an easily-accessible way to get what they want too. That sells the next-gen :apple:TV to many more people than just that feel as you do about the hardware limitations approximating "as is".

This device isn't for recording. The item you watched is already recorded and stored somewhere else (perhaps your desktop), so the DVR functionality will never be there, and shouldn't be.

Same with blu-ray - optical media has an end of life hopefully soon. In the new digital age, physical (mobile) media makes no sense. It's just a next generation floppy, and with proper bandwidth and connections it's completely unnecessary - it's really a way for enforce DRM, which is all about profit protection.

I understand (both) quite well. But there are an awful lot of people that want those features- even if you and I don't want them. Give them to those people and maybe they'll choose to buy an :apple:TV and a DVR or BD add-on instead of buying a DVR or BD player and NOT buying an :apple:TV.

As to the merits of BD being dead soon, dead-end technology, etc, sales of BDs- especially sales of BDs vs sales of the same content via iTunes doesn't seem to show that everyone feels that way. At some point, we'll have holodecks instead of TVs, but I don't want the option of TVs to go away until it's replacement is completely ready to "wow" in the present.

Believe me, I don't love the idea of re-buying my movies again in BD-format. But I don't love the idea of re-buying them in iTunes media either. In general, I'm noticing though that I can buy/rent the BD format for less than it cost to buy/rent the same movie via iTunes. And the BD format is 1080p "wow", while the iTunes format is handicapped 720p or less.

Also consider that the market for this box is a global one. On the global stage, there are many potential buyers who can't rent/buy a single movie or TV show from iTunes. So, if the next-gen can only play iTunes content, a lot of those buyers can't find much utility for it. Give them add-on options though, and they too might choose to buy it plus their own desired add-on options, instead of a BD player, DVR, etc. (and NOT buying Apple's box). Again, my feedback is about building something that can really sell well.

I look forward to that future when we can all enjoy "wow" streamed from the cloud. But there is this time between now and then when I would like as much "wow" as possible. IMO, Apple's (TV) way so far is too closed (hardware & software) to be the better way forward. However, it's easy enough to fix in a next-gen device that borrows some old ideas from what makes Mac's so appealing (user flexibility through add-on hardware and software to give their own Mac the functionality they desire for themselves... without forcing individual desires on every other Mac owner).

I love your software ideas, and I would support all of them. I have a question about running iOS which seems to be the popular prediction for the device's OS - how would you control it? I don't really understand the interface paradigm. I understand a remote to control it, but how is it going to know when you touch to click versus touch to select - it needs a modified pointer or something, right? Which goes against the touch interface.

That part is a mess. Those that don't think such things through will say things like "I'll control it with my iPhone/Touch/iPad", but that won't work well for mainstream use. For example, in a family setting, you couldn't take the "good remote" with you when you leave the home; else, you render the :apple:TV useless. And Touch is not really touch-controlled, as you must look at the screen to see what you are touching. Etc.

Thus, a next-gen :apple:TV probably has dedicated Apps with controls that are more passive (like "play this video") vs. active (like click joystick controls 20 times a minute to control a character in a game). The former would still yield enormous added functionality from third parties. The latter probably would have you spending the vast majority of the time looking at the little screen on the iDevice rather than the big screen.

The controller is also probably NOT an existing iDevice, as that seems to only work for single people living alone (so taking it with you has no effect on no one left behind). So while iDevices could still have apps to act as a controller for the next-gen :apple:TV, it probably has to come with its own dedicated controller too that makes no sense to take along when anyone leaves the house.

Still, dedicated apps created by third parties would make the next-gen :apple:TV capable of fulfilling many- if not most- of the software wishes of potential buyers, much like open hardware (even if it was just a few standard USB ports) could offer the options for third parties to fulfill individual hardware wishes).

Bottom line: nothing you as an individual gets forced on you with the open hardware or software ideas, but they (everyone else) would at least have ways to make their :apple:TV cover whatever wants they want covered. Win: Win.

Anything else is trying to force "they" to like it like Apple wants to serve it, and/or like "you"(/I) like it for our own purposes. End result: a product that sells at less volume than its fullest potential.
 
I don't like the limited onboard storage part.

As opposed to...unlimited? Is that hyperspacial? 4th dimensional? Mythical?

If you want to store media at home you either need shelves or lots of hard drives. I'd say even a nice tower computer box with space for several drives won't cut it.
 
There are already myriad devices which record. This device will *never* have a DVR and doesn't need one - it streams digital content. It's not a tuner, it will never have a DVR - other products exist and do that. This is not a me-too product.
As a current user of 3 satellite-based DVRs and former owner of others, I'd like to see the "myriad" devices to record TV of which you speak. Because I am unaware of them. I know of 1 on Mac, 1 standalone, and a couple on Win. Don't include any of the cable/sat company DVRs, because we are discussing a world where we dump their services for the "cloud". But we still need:

As for live sports, what does that have to do with a device that streams digital content? Do you ask your DVD player manufacturer this question? :rolleyes:

This whole thread is speculation. But it seems that, if they make something, Apple would want it to be a device to "take over" your TV viewing, as the iPod has for many people for audio, and they claim the iPad should do for reading and personal computer use. So that means live TV must be considered. If they don't, they screwed up.
 
Same with blu-ray - optical media has an end of life hopefully soon. In the new digital age, physical (mobile) media makes no sense. It's just a next generation floppy, and with proper bandwidth and connections it's completely unnecessary - it's really a way for enforce DRM, which is all about profit protection.

Seriously, do you guys have ANY IDEA what that really means? For the world? Or even a country? Hell, even a street with 10 houses?

You throw out these words like they have meaning in real life. Might as well say, "after I make my first 10 billion dollars, I'll xxx". What about tomorrow afternoon, when I want to watch Wimbledon finals?
 
That's the Koolaid...But there are an awful lot of people that want those features- even if you and I don't want them.

I guess this is where we disagree. In my opinion Apple doesn't produce for the masses. Sometimes they create products that sell to a lot of people, but they don't produce for the masses. That's left to the Dells and Sonys and Gateways and Microsofts of the world. It's not about selling to as many people as possible, it's about producing products which are unique and provide a user experience unlike anything else.

With blu-ray and DVR capabilities, that's just not the purpose of a device like this, no matter how many people want it - there are loads of options out there already fulfilling this requirement. Why would Apple take a device with a unique function (i.e. streaming digital content) and turn it into a me-too device just so it would sell more? That's not their style, they go for margins not quantity. Task specificity is what it's about, not everything for everyone.

The rest, we totally agree on, and I look forward to seeing the next ATV with a bit more openness than the current version.

BTW, I hacked mine to make it as fun as it is - first by hand, then with ATVFlash. After my iMac, it's the most used hardware in my house. But it took my hacking it to take it to that level - before that, it was seldom used. Since I did that I cancelled my cable (2+ years ago) and use my ATV every day. This is how consuming digital content in the home should be.
 
HD and a remote storage would not make anything new... It would just be the same but different... At a higher resolution. Until the Atv incorporates Cable/broadcast/Dvr, it will just be a "hobby".

If they are just trying to repackage their movie/tv rentals then they can just save their time.
 
Don't include any of the cable/sat company DVRs, because we are discussing a world where we dump their services for the "cloud".

Yet, you want Apple to become a cable/sat/FTA tuner company (across multiple countries which all have multiple formats) and yet you throw out the DVRs which exist (myriad is correct) to record these streams? And then there are those that don't require a tuner.

This whole thread is speculation.

This whole site is speculation and rumour. :D

So that means live TV must be considered. If they don't, they screwed up.

Then they can add an app to the device which *streams* the content - why wouldn't that work?

Seriously, do you guys have ANY IDEA what that really means? For the world? Or even a country? Hell, even a street with 10 houses?

Are you mired in today, or are you understanding the comment was all about the future.

Few parts of the world can stream digital content today, but it's growing and we are talking tomorrow, not today, and in the horrible world of capitalism, when a need arises with cash in hand, companies step forth and deliver. Why do you think this wouldn't happen? Why do you think this isn't happening now?
 
As for live sports, what does that have to do with a device that streams digital content? Do you ask your DVD player manufacturer this question? :rolleyes:

Because Apple wants me to cancel my Cable subscription, and I'm willing too, if I can get all the live sports I want on their new device.

If not, I have to keep cable, and would like a DVR. I'm not paying twice for the same content.
 
I think it would be an excellent addition to the T.V if it had internet connection, simply because I'm a freak when it comes to my computer :) I would love to have apps such as Thunderbird and Adium running, off of my T.V. That way, if I'm waiting on an important email I don't have to stare at my screen for hours, I can watch some T.V and it'll tell me when it arrives...

Just a thought =)
 
I guess this is where we disagree. In my opinion Apple doesn't produce for the masses. Sometimes they create products that sell to a lot of people, but they don't produce for the masses. That's left to the Dells and Sonys and Gateways and Microsofts of the world. It's not about selling to as many people as possible, it's about producing products which are unique and provide a user experience unlike anything else.

With blu-ray and DVR capabilities, that's just not the purpose of a device like this, no matter how many people want it - there are loads of options out there already fulfilling this requirement. Why would Apple take a device with a unique function (i.e. streaming digital content) and turn it into a me-too device just so it would sell more? That's not their style, they go for margins not quantity. Task specificity is what it's about, not everything for everyone.

I think you might have Apple confused with someone else. Have you not noticed that just about every keynote starts off with "wow" numbers of sales of iPhones, Macs, Songs, etc. Apple touts iPhone sales volume. Apple touts Mac sales volume. Every time Apple's song volume passed another retailer, it was a press release. Etc.

Apple wanted the "4 legs of the table" with an eye toward dominating. Macs, iPods, iPhone and :apple:TV were supposed to be the 4 legs. When only 3 legs really showed the sales volume, the 4th leg was repackaged in PR as "a hobby".

If we want to look forward to a world of streaming everything from an iTunes cloud, Apple's DRM makes it impossible to leave selling a set-top box to the Dells, Gateway, etc. They can't build something for the masses that also works with iTunes visual media.

I think rumors-if true- about a $99 next-gen shows Apple is also working on trying to dominate, addressing one very popular gripe for those that look at the current :apple:TV incarnation. I would be totally shocked if the next-gen didn't rollout with hardware capable of outputting 1080p (all the arguments pro 720p, you/I can't see the difference, blah-blah-blah be d*mned). Again, this would show Apple trying to get it right for more mainstream appeal this time.

The 2 steps I suggest (more open hardware and software) would simply cover the other bases. Apple could still deliver every bit of a "unique" product "and provide a user experience unlike anything else" and still deliver on these user options to extend it to personal taste. I consider my Macs to be unique products that provide a user experience unlike anything else, but if new Macs rolled out with hardware & software expandibility as locked down as :apple:TV, my next computer would probably not be a Mac.

There's nothing wrong with creating a product that can appeal to the masses while still being every bit an Apple creation, experience, etc. Quite the contrary, whoever rolls out the set-top box that dominates the living room ends up with the power to dominate the content delivery deals through that box.

We still have cheap music because the music industry really can't go somewhere else; Apple dominates that space. On the other hand, if Apple makes it's TV set-top solution for only a niche (small) audience because it's not about selling to the masses, they don't get a better rental arrangement than a netflix, they don't get best movie releases vs. many other players, they don't get the deepest catalog vs. others, etc. Own the living room and the Studios will bend over backwards to work with Apple. Let other boxes entrench first and the Studios will work with others much more readily than the niche, small group who Apple apparently does build products for.

BTW, I hacked mine to make it as fun as it is - first by hand, then with ATVFlash. After my iMac, it's the most used hardware in my house. But it took my hacking it to take it to that level - before that, it was seldom used. Since I did that I cancelled my cable (2+ years ago) and use my ATV every day. This is how consuming digital content in the home should be.

So, imagine all the potential buyers who don't know about the hack, or can't figure out how to hack it to make it more along the lines of what THEY want. Even you admit that the stock unit did not quite do the job for your own purposes. You found a way to make it better fit your needs, but the "crowd" won't do that, or don't know that they can.

There's people other than you (and I) that would like a next-gen :apple:TV to do some other things. Those other things don't have to be forced on you and I by Apple building them into a stock unit. But, if Apple would loosen the locks on the device (some of which you forced via hacks), then the device can still be every bit of a unique product that provides a "wow" user experience... and be gobbled up by the masses.

Through those ideas you & I would not be forced to pay extra for a BD player or DVR if WE don't want those features. But those that do want those features would have very tangible reasons to buy an :apple:TV too. Otherwise, Apple can't make them like it the way Apple wants to serve it up, so they take their money elsewhere, an :apple:TV does not go into their home, it remains a "hobby", Studios don't feel much incentive to do much with their content, and things stay closer to "as is" vs. the very much better experience for all involved that it could be.

Apple needs to win this race. They can't win by selling to only a small segment of special people who buy it because we understand how Apples wants it to be used. They win by getting everyone to want to buy it... just like they want everyone to buy their iDevices and Macs. That vision of the iTunes cloud loaded with every movie in 1080p on demand, etc, cannot be realized in even 5 years without an awful deep entrenchment of Apple TVs in homes beyond the typical Apple fan base. Make it go into as many homes as iPods, and that vision will come to be much faster (because the Studios will feel the greed incentive to sell to such an enormous base of equipped consumers).
 
The next-gen AppleTV has to be the Tivo for the cord-cutting generation. It needs to be less dependent on iTunes content.

This.

That's exactly what I need. After cutting the cable, I've realized I don't need to worry about missing the 99.9% of programming that was never of any interest to me. What I want is available on the web, either free or comparatively cheaply. I need a box that brings all that together in a way that's as easy as my Tivo used to be. iTunes is nice, and it's a part of the overall package, but it is NOT the full solution... much as Apple keeps insisting that it is.
 
iTunes U

How about giving us iTunes U content. I think opening up our TV's to this content will greatly enhance the Apple TV experience.
 
He sees the inclusion of an HDMI port on the new Mac mini and the rumors of a revamped Apple TV set-top box as part of a progression that will lead to the launch of an actual Apple television with integrated iTunes/Internet access within two to four years.

Oh, gummy bears... I can't wait.
 
I think you're way, way off base on that one. The newest numbers I can find publicly available are from Jan 2009 (I know .. it's old) but even then it was only 9.4M blu ray device sold total world wide. 8M of those were PS/3. While I know many PS3 user watch blu ray, that's not typical. That means 1.4M dedicated blu ray players. At the same point Apple had sold over 20M iPhones. That a factor of 10. So yes. I'd say by comparison blu ray is a niche.

Dude, stop lying, anyone with half a brain and the ability to use google can see that ur numbers are TOTAL BS.

Lets see, according to u, there have been 9.4m BD players sold worldwide, of which 8m are PS3s? Do u really think only 8m PS3s have been sold since it launched 4 years ago? There are more than 35m PS3 sold worldwide, and in the US alone, more than 5m BD players sold since Q1 2009 (according to centris). Now that BD players are hitting the <$150 price point regularly the numbers will start growing at a huge rate.

Avatar on BD has sold more than 6.2m copies in 3 weeks. Is there any iphone software sold on itunes that can match that?
 
Yet, you want Apple to become a cable/sat/FTA tuner company (across multiple countries which all have multiple formats) and yet you throw out the DVRs which exist (myriad is correct) to record these streams? And then there are those that don't require a tuner.
IF they put out a "TV device", it needs to cover OTA & DVR, somehow. DVR is very, very popular. And yes, you throw out the devices that you are throwing out when you buy this hypothetical Apple device.

BTW, myriad means 10,000. Unless you count individual units, that's a bit off.

Then they can add an app to the device which *streams* the content - why wouldn't that work?
If no OTA is possible, then this part is contract negotiations with providers/originators of such content, because the majority of it is not available live on the internet today. Think about it. Every single news station? The NFL? Which is one of THE largest TV moneymakers on the planet, minute for minute, and has had an exclusive contract with one company in the USA for over a decade? That's all far worse than simply including "TV" in a TV product.

Are you mired in today, or are you understanding the comment was all about the future.

Few parts of the world can stream digital content today, but it's growing and we are talking tomorrow, not today, and in the horrible world of capitalism, when a need arises with cash in hand, companies step forth and deliver. Why do you think this wouldn't happen? Why do you think this isn't happening now?
Most people in this forum are not here simply to discuss some magical land where something might happen...someday. This thread appears (to me) to be discussing a real product that could drop any minute, which product is an upgrade to a real, existing one, that I could be using today. Dismissing the needs of today is stupid, Apple certainly seems to plan for mythical futures, but they also have stores with shelves that can hold actual products.

Oh, and I think you should actually add up the bandwidth needed for HDTV. The internet infrastructure doesn't begin to cover it.
 
IF they put out a "TV device", it needs to cover OTA & DVR, somehow. DVR is very, very popular. And yes, you throw out the devices that you are throwing out when you buy this hypothetical Apple device.

BTW, myriad means 10,000. Unless you count individual units, that's a bit off.


If no OTA is possible, then this part is contract negotiations with providers/originators of such content, because the majority of it is not available live on the internet today. Think about it. Every single news station? The NFL? Which is one of THE largest TV moneymakers on the planet, minute for minute, and has had an exclusive contract with one company in the USA for over a decade? That's all far worse than simply including "TV" in a TV product.


Most people in this forum are not here simply to discuss some magical land where something might happen...someday. This thread appears (to me) to be discussing a real product that could drop any minute, which product is an upgrade to a real, existing one, that I could be using today. Dismissing the needs of today is stupid, Apple certainly seems to plan for mythical futures, but they also have stores with shelves that can hold actual products.

Oh, and I think you should actually add up the bandwidth needed for HDTV. The internet infrastructure doesn't begin to cover it.

If the networks make all of their shows available for streaming simultaneously with the "broadcast" of that show, in real time and in HD quality then the need for a DVR vanishes for 90% of the public, who only use their DVR to record a show, watch it, and then delete it.

I do think that Jobs recent comments Re: Blu-ray and Apples very expensive investment in the massive cloud center in North Carolina are all indicators that they are going to make a big media play sometime in the near future.

I just wish they would understand that we consumers don't want another "break with the past" strategy from Jobs Co. where-in we have to abandon or repurchase all of our content. We want a product that offers this mythical streaming world in tandem with the ability to continue to consume the media we already have invested in.

We also don't want DRM. I certainly won't be buying any movies, from anyone that can only play back on a certain device or with specific software. I'd rather go the "pirate" route and buy my content on Blu-ray and make my own high quality .mkv files that play back on a variety of players.
 
I think you might have Apple confused with someone else.

I don't actually, but what I do think is that we disagree about what this device should be. I believe it should be more like what it is today, you believe that it should be all things to all people. This device today is about streaming digital content to my television. Steve Jobs has said, blu-ray licensing is a bag of hurt, the future is digital downloads.

Whether you like it or not, it's about a device which streams in a lovely way all digital content, whether from your desktop (or NAS/SAN/other) or from the cloud. That's the future, and that's what Apple is selling. This new device will support that, and will not support blu-ray (SJ has said so) and will not be a DVR (consider the number of tuners it'd have to support around the world).

Apple is not a commodity product company, otherwise they couldn't charge premium prices.

IF they put out a "TV device", it needs to cover OTA & DVR, somehow. DVR is very, very popular. And yes, you throw out the devices that you are throwing out when you buy this hypothetical Apple device.

Apologies in advance but you need to read all the threads on this discussion which happened years ago regarding this device. To sum up, this device isn't a DVR, it isn't a tuner, it isn't an optical player, and it *never* will be.

BTW, myriad means 10,000. Unless you count individual units, that's a bit off.

Not to appear to be pedantic, but myriad does most certainly not mean 10,000, it means indefinite, as in many.

Most people in this forum are not here simply to discuss some magical land where something might happen...someday.

Do you think we speculate about products that are available today? Rumours is about tomorrow. Sometimes it extends into the day after tomorrow, but it's *always* about tomorrow, otherwise it wouldn't be a rumour.
 
An actual tv with integrated internet, iTunes, app store and FaceTime camera would sell like crazy. C'mon Apple, make it happen!
 
If the networks make all of their shows available for streaming simultaneously with the "broadcast" of that show, in real time and in HD quality then the need for a DVR vanishes for 90% of the public, who only use their DVR to record a show, watch it, and then delete it.

Actually, the current method of One Day Late for new shows (not live events) is just fine with me. The whole point of DVRs is to watch later, anyway. But they need more quality, which means faster infrastructure, which is far more than one company's task. I'm just dying to get rid of my $90+ sat bill and stream (even if that has a smaller cost), but it just isn't there, yet.
 
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