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Re: most impressive

Originally posted by sprescott1974
if we don't get an apple branded handheld/tablet on monday i'm buying a newton on ebay and throwing out my stupid handspring. who needs to hotsync anyway.

YEAH! Gutsy move - and I agree!

The Newt was the PDA of PDA's - some of us believe it still is......

I tried a Sony Clie last week - gime a break, not as good as a 2100.

Excellent post to start this thread - remind us all just how f****ing great the Newt was!

Damnit, Apple should OWN the world of PDA's.......

I want an iWalk on Monday.
 
Man...

These videos really astoished me... This thing that is 5 yrs old can kick any PDA's ass! You can write anywhere on the screen... that's pretty kick ass... You don't have to learn ****** grafiti... And its GUI is quite advanced with windows opening up... (not like Palm OS where it just decides to appear out of no where!)
 
And I always thought...

That the newton was a failed device because it had bad handwriting recognition (what Macworld Mag. has let me believe)... How could such a product have been canned?!?
 
Newt vs. Palm

I was using my Newton 2100 at work one day, and a co-worker stopped to chuckle at how big it was, so I took his Palm Pilot and placed it on top of my open Newton... the entire Palm unit fit within the space taken up by the Newton screen.

I then pointed out that the ENTIRE screen on the Newton was a writable surface, as opposed to the postage stamp of space on his Palm. I showed him how well it translated my horrendous left-handed writing, and how well it also translated his tidy right-handed printing with NO changes to configurations.

I then proceeded to dig out a dongle, plug it into the Ethernet PC card in the Newt, snatch the cat5 from the back of the company NT laptop, grab a DHCP IP from the company network, and show him http://www.apple.com in 16 shades of grey, as well as all of the printers on the company network.

I asked him if he was interested in seeing the web server software available on my Newton, but he declined; he had to make an appointment to have his jaw surgically re-implanted, since it dropped so hard when he saw all this that it dislocated. :D
 
Thanks guys!

Kudos to the Historylesson dept. for an informative lesson. The more young'uns that see this the better.
 
I couldn't let arn have all the fun. I created a movie of my Newton MessagePad 130, take a look here:

http://www.blakespot.com/newton.avi

(QuickTime comes w/ the proper codec for this avi)


Same HWR recognizers as the MP2000. Both Newton 2.x devices. As for Calligrapher/Transcriber being the same--the people who wrote the CURSIVE recognizer for the Newton (ParaGraph) indeed wrote Calligrapher/Transcriber from the PocketPC. But the Newton's real gem was the print recognizer done by Apple, in-house, called Rosetta. It was far superior to the cursive recognizer and stands today, still, as the best HWR engine I have ever used.


blakespot
 
Thanks MacRumors

Thanks Macrumors! I had never seen a Newton in action before -- It's fantastic. I finally understand why the forums are crowded with people begging Apple to release a PDA. There obviously must be a significant downside to the Newton for Apple to have discontinued it, but from the quick bit I saw, Apple could re-release this 5-year-old technology on Monday with a paint job and an 'i" in front of its name and it'd have another run-away hit.
 
Re:

Blakespot: If the Newton had great HWR why did Macworld Mag. dismiss it saying it had failed due to poor HWR!!! (I'm not saying your wrong, just asking the question)...

What where the other drawbacks that made it not sell very well? Was it priced to high?
 
Best Technologies Not Always Successful

I read, recently, that simply because a technology is superior does not guarantee success. Betamax, for example, was better than VHS. We all know that the Mac OS has always been far superior to Windoze (Not that the Mac OS is NOT a success, but it's market share is so small). Finally--and I find this amazing--a technology as advanced as the Newton was superceded by Palm. Quite obviously, size was an issue in the Newton's demise. I always felt that to abandon such a wonderful technology--to relegate it to the dustbin of time--was, shall we say--moronic? As such, I would really hope that the iWalk is real, and that Apple has been working diligently on it since Jobs pulled the plug on the Newton a few years back.
 
Why it failed?

There are some key factors...

1. Price. The public decided that they would not pay more than a couple of hundred bucks for a handheld. And, PDA became such a buzz word, that people decided to buy anything on the market as long as it was called a PDA. Well...this timing coincided nicely with a cheap little unit called the Palm Pilot. It was almost as if few people cared that it was cheaply made, and that it did very little. Compared to paper, they were pleased, and the price was right...so Palm sold a ton of them. This is the myth of cheap products; certainly, the market will give you what you want to pay for...and that's exactly what Palm gave people. What palm hasn't given people is a real PDA. The Newton was priced at $799. Was it worth it? Most definitely. But, the market wasn't ready for it.

2. Size. The next myth in PDAs is that smaller is better. For those of us who have used the Newton, I know of few who would want LESS screen real estate. The size of the Newton, for its users, became a plus. But, for those who had never used a PDA, the smaller palm looked appealing. Never mind that you couldn't use that small screen for anything meaningful beyond the date book. The Newton was perceived of as being too large.

3. Desktop Connectivity. For some reason, Apple really struggled with tying the Newton into the desktop and syncing the information. Though you could back up the Newton, it was never elegant, and there was never a "Newton Desktop" application. I think this hurt the Newton. One of Palm's strengths was the perceive one-button sync.

4. Steve Jobs. When he returned...he was all about cutting costs and non-profitable sectors of the company. Plus, it is widely rumored that he didn't like the Newton. Granted, it was a scary time for the future of Apple when he returned, and I respect the manner in which he has turned the company around. But, his dismissal of the PDA as an important part of his "digital lifestyle" (or, worse, thinking Palm has it covered) is a huge blindspot in his reasoning. But hey, he's the one with the $90 million Jet.

I remember the fateful day I placed my Newton on eBay. I had just upgraded system software, and some of my key back-up software didn't run, and I couldn't sync any of my information. Apple had discontinued support of the Newton, and I thought I should sell it while I could still get something for it. My Newton was 2.5 years old, I had bought it for $750, plus a $150 upgrade, and I still sold it for over $500. I remember thinking that Apple would release an updated PDA anytime, and I was going to hold out and buy one as soon as they did. I'm still waiting...

As someone said earlier...you could basically ressurect the Newton tomorrow, make a few minor tweaks, write good desktop software, and the Newton would still kick ass.
 
Faked video

You guys there don't realise arn's videos are clearly faked? No way the newton worked like that. I know what I'm talking about as I got one on my own. There are artefacts in the video each foolish people can easily recognize as faked. Enlarge the video and watch to the inconsistent moving screen. The reflexes are not really good and where are the shadows on the screen. I could create a video like that in a couple of hours. Nevertheless its quite a good job, Arn. However, do not trust him!
 
Oh yeah...

The "perception" that the Newton had lousy handwriting recognition was born out of a Doonsebury cartoon that ran after the release of one of the early Newtons (the 110?) way back in 1993 of 94.

The cartoon spoofed the hwr. I think this perception of band HWR hung over the Newt's head for years, long after the software had been vastly improved.

I got to where I could write 35 words a minute without a mistake. I would sit and write long papers and do things like edit html pages.

Anyway...I'm waxing nostalgic. Maybe I'll buy an Newt off of eBay on Tuesday pending the MW announcements. ;-)
 
I don't get it..?

Why would arn bother faking a video??? Spymac has a reason, to get attention to what they believe is the new device being launched... but arn??? He sounds honest... and maybe you where using Newton OS 1 and he was using Newton OS 2 or something like that!

I don't see the inconsistancies..! I just don't get why arn would fake a video.. just doesn't make sense...

Which video, which seconds.. I'll believe it when I see it!
 
My two cents...

I've been reading these posts since the iWalk videos came up, and I have a few things to add myself.

1. Handwriting recognition: My Newton 100 had mediocre recognition. They fixed it with later Newtons. My 130 and 2000 had excellent recognition (albeit the 2000's was much faster due to faster processor). The kicker to getting the cursive to work was that one had to properly for their words. In other words, garbage in = garbage out, so my own handwriting improved. I always thought the cursive recognizers were much better than the block print recognizers.

2. My thoughts on the demise of the Newton: From what I remember, and please feel free to correct me with evidence contrary to this, Apple spun off Newton Inc., the Newton was profitable at the end, and then Jobs returned. He could have let Newton Inc. sink or swim, but he reeled it back in just to kill John Sculley's progeny. Yes, the Newton had a rough start, but it was just coming of age, with software, peripherals, expandability, etc. It could have done well, I thought, and staved off the success of the Microsoft PDA's.

3. Cool stuff not mentioned: I was running Macintalk on my 2000. Yes, it worked flawlessly. You could have it read text to you, and it sounded no different than Macintalk on a Mac. Although I never attempted to do so, there was at least one hack that added an audio in/out jack to the 2100. I'm sure there's more, but that's what I remember.

4. The veracity of the iWalk video: I've gone through that thing one frame at a time, and cannot find evidence that what's on the screen was added in post. IF the iWalk is a fake, then it is at least based on some sort of working hardware; either beta hardware or a damn good mock-up. Handwriting recognition behaves perfectly. Regarding the gray screen at power off, that is what they look like on side/front-lit displays, such as my Palm 505 (and take a look at the color Sony Cliés, too). And finally, for the gray-scale interface elements on a color screen, do this: in OS X go into System Preferences, click General, and under Appearance, select Graphite. There's your grayscale interface (buttons, et al).

All this of course, I can summarize as the following:

1. The Newton always kicked ass, and still can.
2. I don't believe the videos were doctored in post
3. The iWalk hardware exists at the very least in prototype.

Lastly, is it possible that the mystery port on the top of the iWalk is similar to the ThinkPad's ultraport? In other words a standard interface for things like wireless, cameras, etc.?
 

Sparacux is joking dantec about the "faking" - just drawing a comparison to the spymac arguments...

As for why the Newton failed?

Timothy hit it on the head...

while the Newton technology was awesome - Apple had some strange ideas behind it. They refused to make a smaller unit... in fact I heard that behind the scenes there were adament arguments that there would never be a smaller newton.

But all these points became moot.... the Newton 2000 was actually doing very well - with lots of vertical markets interested in the unit...

And at one point Apple decided to spin newton off into it's own company... called Newton Inc. They even set up their own website - everywas was on it's way. They were going to push the Newton into vertical markets, and many of us hoped it would also continue to make strides the the user market.

This was _right_ at the time Jobs came back to Apple.... for some unknown reason - Newton Inc was reabsorbed into Apple and killed.

As people have said, the poor HWR reputation started in 1993.... but these were mostly fixed by Newton OS 2.0 which appeared years prior to the Newton 2000. The Newton 2000 was significantly faster though (162mhz StrongARM processor)

arn
 
The videos are real

Everything shown in the videos is easily done on a MessagePad 2000 or 2100.

I should know, I used to work in the Newton group and (briefly) at Newton, Inc. until we got sucked back into the mother ship and shut down.

I hope the rumors about an Apple branded PDA are true. I really doubt it though as I think I would have heard something from old friends who are still at the company.
 

Oh... a couple more notes...

I personally like the large screen and wish there were a PDA out there now with such a large screen.

When I showed people my Newton 2000... there were 2 immediate reactions (and this was computer novices and from people who owned palms)

1) I didn't know this technology existed

and then...

2) It's _only_ $1000?

arn
 
I will admit it now on behalf of both Arnold and I. We have created a makeshift OS X-based beowulf cluster with our two DP 800 G4's in order to setup a render farm. Yes, the videos were faked? The proof? Neither arn nor I have arms--they were rendered.


Seriously though, Timothy makes some good points as to why the Newton "failed." Thought it's of note that it had just become profitable, finally, immediately before it was canned. A large part of why the Newton was killed was to get Apple focused on the quadrant-based product line that finally came to be. Such a dizzying array of indistinguishable hardware was the Apple line at the time. (Well, actuall Apple had just let Newton go as an independent entity, and then brought it back in and killed it--but there were fears of shareholder issues down the road, etc.)

The original Newton's handwriting recognition was very poor. That was the Newton that got the most press, as it was the first PDA, more or less. The massive improvement of the HWR did not get made known, sadly. But indeed, to this day, there is no better HWR than the Newton 2.x devices' HWR technology. The latest Calligrapher (or lesser Transcriber) do not match Apple's own in-house Rosetta HWR engine.

Back in '97, I brought my PDA's to Arn's apt. and we took a shot of both our combined lots:

lotsapdas2.jpg


14 NewtonOS devices represented there, I think.


My current collection, sans the Compaq iPAQ I use day-to-day as my current handheld, can be seen here:

http://www.blakespot.com/list/images/pdas.jpg


PDA's. It's a good scene.



blakespot

 
My two cents...

I've been reading these posts since the iWalk videos came up, and I have a few things to add myself.

1. Handwriting recognition: My Newton 100 had mediocre recognition. They fixed it with later Newtons. My 130 and 2000 had excellent recognition (albeit the 2000's was much faster due to faster processor). The kicker to getting the cursive to work was that one had to properly for their words. In other words, garbage in = garbage out, so my own handwriting improved. I always thought the cursive recognizers were much better than the block print recognizers.

2. My thoughts on the demise of the Newton: From what I remember, and please feel free to correct me with evidence contrary to this, Apple spun off Newton Inc., the Newton was profitable at the end, and then Jobs returned. He could have let Newton Inc. sink or swim, but he reeled it back in just to kill John Sculley's progeny. Yes, the Newton had a rough start, but it was just coming of age, with software, peripherals, expandability, etc. It could have done well, I thought, and staved off the success of the Microsoft PDA's.

3. Cool stuff not mentioned: I was running Macintalk on my 2000. Yes, it worked flawlessly. You could have it read text to you, and it sounded no different than Macintalk on a Mac. Although I never attempted to do so, there was at least one hack that added an audio in/out jack to the 2100. I'm sure there's more, but that's what I remember.

4. The veracity of the iWalk video: I've gone through that thing one frame at a time, and cannot find evidence that what's on the screen was added in post. IF the iWalk is a fake, then it is at least based on some sort of working hardware; either beta hardware or a damn good mock-up. Handwriting recognition behaves perfectly. Regarding the gray screen at power off, that is what they look like on side/front-lit displays, such as my Palm 505 (and take a look at the color Sony Cliés, too). And finally, for the gray-scale interface elements on a color screen, do this: in OS X go into System Preferences, click General, and under Appearance, select Graphite. There's your grayscale interface (buttons, et al).

All this of course, I can summarize as the following:

1. The Newton always kicked ass, and still can.
2. I don't believe the videos were doctored in post
3. The iWalk hardware exists at the very least in prototype.

Lastly, is it possible that the mystery port on the top of the iWalk is similar to the ThinkPad's ultraport? In other words a standard interface for things like wireless, cameras, etc.?
 
Newton Revisted...

I originally posted this in response to another post on comp.sys.newton.misc back in October/November when the the iPod was announced. I even sent it to Steve Jobs for what good it would do... 8^)! I thought you might be interested.

Wasn't it fun to watch Apple's stock gain over a dollar on Tuesday morning as it climbed in anticipation of a hypathetical device called the "iWalk"? Wasn't it equally disheartening to watch as the stock dropped by almost a full dollar after the announcement of the actual device called the "iPod"? What's my point?

Apple NEEDS to re-enter the PDA marketplace and regain its position as leader and innovator in a sector originally thier own! So many of us were eagerly expecting something so much more than an MP3 player with Firewire and a hard drive. So many of us were disappointed when that product didn't come to fruition. So many of us are now asking, "what's next?" and so many of us are sticking with our MessagePads once again because after almost four years, there's still nothing on the market to replace our trusted companions.

The iWalk was an obvious hoax but look at the attention it garnered in the 24 hours before Apple's announcement. It wasn't an MP3 player that drove Apple's stock up over $19.00 on Tuesday morning... It was heightened speculation that Apple would be announcing a new PDA; one that was/is to be a worthy successor to the Newton's heritage!

In hindsight, almost everyone now agrees that the last incarnations of Newton were astounding to say the least. Apple's "legendary industrial design", fast processors, lots of RAM, expandibility, the best backlit screen in the industry (the list goes on...), are all responsible for making the Newton the best PDA there was/is. And let's not forget the best part of the Newton experience... The Newton OS! Newton OS 2.1 was/is mature. Newton OS 2.1 was/is friendly and easy to use. Newton OS 2.1 has the best damn handwriting recognition in the industry!

In the last four years, NOTHING has replaced it! My MessagePad is STILL just as useful to me today as it was back in 1997 when I first purchased it! It STILL surfs the web, grabs my email, takes my notes, and does my finances. In fact in 2001, very few modern PDA's, even the one's that are now coming to market, are as fast as the Newton was in 1997.

So what happened?

In my opinion, the myths of Steve Jobs not liking the Newton are hearsay and irrelevant. The Newton was ultimately shelved despite being the BEST for a number of reasons. First, IT NEVER MADE MONEY! Actually, truth be told, this is the ONLY reason the Newton was canned, period. Bottom line. Naturally, there were other factors; before Gil came on board as CEO and restructured things, Apple was in dire financial and organizational straights. The Newton was never marketed successfully; it was physically too big (not to my mind but as evidenced by the Palm Pilot's quick rise to fame and fortune), it was priced too high (a lesson that Apple still hasn't learned or fully grasped as evidenced recently by the now defunct Cube and now the iPod), Apple never did get synchronization with a desktop system to work properly, and perhaps (though I don't necessarily agree), it tried to be or do too much when all people really wanted was something to stick in their pockets and go.

Let's face some facts. The Newton was/is a FULL BLOWN COMPUTER capable of standing on its own without having to rely on a desktop system at all. Most every other PDA (modern or otherwise, with the possible exception of Psion) ISN'T. Today, modern PDA's rely heavily on synergy and synchronization with a desktop system to be a complete solution. I have no problem with that whatsoever but I prefer the Newton approach. I don't want to have to rely on a desktop system but I DO want the ability to have my PDA successfully communicate with other computers to transfer data and information. That, I think is of paramount importance!

Give the people what they want already! I think Apple knows that they had a winning product in the Newton, they simply made too many mistakes in too many areas to see it through. Image if Apple had released a Palm sized Newton instead of the eMate or the MessagePad 2000? Imagine if they had priced it reasonably from the get-go, imagine if that damned Doonsbury cartoon had never been published. Imagine if, imagine if... They pioneered an entirely new industry and pioneers make mistakes in uncharted territories.

Here's what I suspect most people really want(ed) to see as heir to the venerable Newton:

- a smaller device with all of the capabilities the Newton possessed four years ago plus...
- based on a handheld version of OS X,
- fast, low-powered G3 processor,
- at least 64MB of RAM built-in (with the option to exand),
- improved handwriting recognition engine (Rosetta?),
- voice recognition (Newton had it with Dragon Dictate!),
- a colour screen,
- a long-life Lithium-polymer battery,
- a headphone jack,
- some kind of control pad (scroll wheel or some such thing),
- SM and CF card support,
- iPod functionality built-in (including the hard drive and Firewire),
- USB and Firewire connectivity,
- WIRELESS internet (ala Airport, Bluetooth and or GSM Cellular),
- seamless connectivity to a desktop system (notice I didn't specify Mac),
- affordable ($899. US? Pipedream? Perhaps then $999. US)

There's probably more and I'm sure many of you will look at the list and say, "Hey! he forgot this or that..." but you get the picture.

Well, I've said my piece and until Apple comes around and produces something worthy of the Newton's legacy, I'll keep on using my MessagePad thanks very much.

Cheers,
Goggles
 
I believe Newton was brought back into Apple and killed due to concerns that if Newton, Inc. had found success, there could be repercussions from Apple shareholders with regards to them "letting Newton go." This was especially concerning as, again, the Newton group had just turned profitable.

Am I remembering this right, Arn?

It was not simply a take-this-Scully move. I don't think Steve would be, even then, that impulsive given what he was trying to accomplish with his return to Apple.



blakespot
 
Originally posted by blakespot
I believe Newton was brought back into Apple and killed due to concerns that if Newton, Inc. had found success, there could be repercussions from Apple shareholders with regards to them "letting Newton go." This was especially concerning as, again, the Newton group had just turned profitable.

Am I remembering this right, Arn?

That was one person's theory... but I don't think it makes any sense... newton was still subsidiary of Apple...

If this were true, than no subsidaries would ever be created for the same fear

arn
 
I hate to say it, but I DO completely believe it was a take-this Sculley move. Since Steve had nothing to do with the idea, development, and creation of this wonderful little toy, he felt no attachment to it whatsoever. The Apple board at the time knew that the Newton was finally turning the corner, but the Newton had always been a black eye for the company with the world at large. That Doonesbury cartoon, (and it seems ridiculous that a cartoon would have this much sway), really killed the baby before it had a chance with the public. By the way,, Gary Trudeau (writer of Doonesbury) later apologized after he saw the Newton 2.x OS and actually drew some Newton advertisements for the company. Anyway, my 2 cents.

gus
 
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