Does it really matter? One way or another, you are going to pay for the remote. Does it help you to pretend it's free?
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Nickle and Dimed
- Thread starter Psychmike
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Does it really matter? One way or another, you are going to pay for the remote. Does it help you to pretend it's free?
I don't hold any "marketing text" close to my heart. My understanding comes from decades of experience owning and operating companies, not just from listening to a professor in a classroom.
Look at the picture: You're in a discussion forum, complaining that "Apple really misses the mark". Well, they made over $32 billion last year by "missing the mark." They're one of the most admired companies, highly profitable and growing rapidly, by "missing the mark." The bottom line is, you're complaining because Apple doesn't do what YOU want it to, but it's ludicrous to claim that they're making mistakes as a business, just because they don't conform to your uninformed opinion of what they should do.
When you have some demonstrated experience in successfully leading a multi-billion dollar company to successive years of growth and prosperity, then you might have some credibility in criticizing Apple. Until then, you're just one of the minority of Apple customers who likes to complain.
Look at the picture: You're in a discussion forum, complaining that "Apple really misses the mark". Well, they made over $32 billion last year by "missing the mark." They're one of the most admired companies, highly profitable and growing rapidly, by "missing the mark." The bottom line is, you're complaining because Apple doesn't do what YOU want it to, but it's ludicrous to claim that they're making mistakes as a business, just because they don't conform to your uninformed opinion of what they should do.
When you have some demonstrated experience in successfully leading a multi-billion dollar company to successive years of growth and prosperity, then you might have some credibility in criticizing Apple. Until then, you're just one of the minority of Apple customers who likes to complain.
Most admired, though, can mean anything. From an employee standpoint, maybe they aren't the most admired. They didn't make the Fortune list this year:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2009/full_list/
Because they made $32 billion last year they did NOTHING wrong? They couldn't have done ANYTHING better? It's specious to compare Apple with, well, itself and to declare it the winner. People can like Apple for many reasons and dislike it for others. Survey a few hundred randomly selected folks, factor analyze the data, and see if there are orthogonal factors behind Apple's positive and negative ratings. Perhaps people LOVE the OS and design but hate the ommission of commonly included peripherals or limiting usability otherwise (e.g., deleting ports).
My credibiliy is not an issue. I am not asking for a job as a consultant with Apple. I am venting a public forum and my arguments either are internally consistent or they are not. I'm not just complaining about Apple. I also sing its praises. I like its designs. I like its OS. It is unclear to me why you create these false dualties: Apple is a good company or it is not. I have credibility or I don't. You know it is possible to like some things about Apple while disliking others, right?
Your decades of experience running and owning companies no doubt provides you with valuable insights that I lack but it does not seem to have conferred upon you the ability to hold 2 competing thoughts in your head at the same time and to realize that they may both be true.
Look at the picture: You distort the facts to strengthen your argument. The quote from my original post is:
"For a company that 'gets' so much about presentation, Apple really misses the mark sometimes."
I think most people would say ommiting the first and last part of my statement is an intentional attempt to mischaracterize my view and to create a straw man argument.
Whether you agree with me or not, I think most people could understand why I'm mildly ticked to have to go out and buy a $35 CDN video adapter. What, however, is YOUR interest in saying I have no reason to be ticked? Does Apple mean that much to you that you can't suffer an unkind word towards it??
You seem to be missing some basic information. Do you think that they video adapter was ever free? I think what folks are telling you is that they are not. They never were, they never will be. You can be "ticked" all you want, but it's silly and shows a lack of understanding of how the world works.
I'm not a "fanboy" and I have no need to defend Apple, or any other company. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to say, "I don't like the way Apple does this" or "I'm ticked that I have to spend more for accessories" or even "I wish Macs weren't so expensive". It's also fine to say "I've decided that Apple no longer meets my needs, so I'm switching to" Sony or Toshiba or Mattel, or whatever.
The line is crossed when an individual consumer claims that a company is wrong or flawed, just because it doesn't conform to that consumer's wishes. In order to continue prospering, a company must continually meet the needs of a large enough market to generate the revenue needed. Due to the fact that people are different, if you satisfy the majority, there will always be a minority who will complain. Changing your business to cater to the whims of the minority, rather than staying focused on what appeals to the larger market, would be detrimental to ongoing growth and prosperity.
Is Apple flawed? Absolutely! Do they make mistakes? You bet! Are their products perfect? Not even close! But choosing not to include a $35 adapter in the purchase price is a choice, not a mistake. It's a choice that many have no problem with, and a few might. If the masses complained, rather than the minority, they would obviously have made a different choice.
If they included the adapter and the remote, some would complain, "Why don't they exclude those things and lower the price? Why should I have to pay for something I never use?" Did it ever occur to you that Apple may have done some market research and found that the majority never used the remote, for example, so they decided to stop including it? The same goes for the adapter. It's foolish to think that Apple made these choices without careful thought, research and planning.
If you're going to critique a global company, it helps if you start with a more global view of the company as a whole, the marketplace and the most significant competitors, rather than measuring it in terms of your limited view, biased by your own desires, rather than what makes good business sense, overall. You used Lenovo as "a lesson in bundling luxury." How well is Lenovo performing as a company, compared to Apple? How much of a competitive threat do they pose, not only today, but to Apple's future plan and direction?
The bottom line is, it's perfectly fine for anyone to say they don't like Apple, or their products, or their practices. But to claim that they're "schizophrenic" or "missing the mark" because they make a business decision you don't understand or agree with is just plain silly.
The line is crossed when an individual consumer claims that a company is wrong or flawed, just because it doesn't conform to that consumer's wishes. In order to continue prospering, a company must continually meet the needs of a large enough market to generate the revenue needed. Due to the fact that people are different, if you satisfy the majority, there will always be a minority who will complain. Changing your business to cater to the whims of the minority, rather than staying focused on what appeals to the larger market, would be detrimental to ongoing growth and prosperity.
Is Apple flawed? Absolutely! Do they make mistakes? You bet! Are their products perfect? Not even close! But choosing not to include a $35 adapter in the purchase price is a choice, not a mistake. It's a choice that many have no problem with, and a few might. If the masses complained, rather than the minority, they would obviously have made a different choice.
If they included the adapter and the remote, some would complain, "Why don't they exclude those things and lower the price? Why should I have to pay for something I never use?" Did it ever occur to you that Apple may have done some market research and found that the majority never used the remote, for example, so they decided to stop including it? The same goes for the adapter. It's foolish to think that Apple made these choices without careful thought, research and planning.
If you're going to critique a global company, it helps if you start with a more global view of the company as a whole, the marketplace and the most significant competitors, rather than measuring it in terms of your limited view, biased by your own desires, rather than what makes good business sense, overall. You used Lenovo as "a lesson in bundling luxury." How well is Lenovo performing as a company, compared to Apple? How much of a competitive threat do they pose, not only today, but to Apple's future plan and direction?
The bottom line is, it's perfectly fine for anyone to say they don't like Apple, or their products, or their practices. But to claim that they're "schizophrenic" or "missing the mark" because they make a business decision you don't understand or agree with is just plain silly.
No, but because they made $32 billion last year, I'm more inclined to trust their business decisions than yours.
I encourage you to write your treatise on how the world works. It seems like you've figured it all out and I'm sure I would benefit from your insight.
I have never been under the impression that anything was free and your attempt to reframe the argument shows your sloppy thinking. I said (perhaps you should read slower) that it used to be included (at low incurred cost) and is now sold separately at a substantial markup. I'm ticked and I posted that comment on a public forum where people state their opinions. How that is any more or less silly than your objecting to it is unclear to me.
I'd like to introduce you to a little concept called pluralism. It means that people can disagree without someone being wrong. For you to disagree with me that Apple is mean for leaving out accessories that they once included is your right. For you to say that my opinion reflects a lack of understanding of how the world works reflects only your belief that others who think/feel differently from you are somehow wrong or naive.
If you went to buy a new Ford tomorrow and noticed that they are now not including a spare tire, would it be so outrageous to go on a Ford forum and say you disagree with their approach and think it's a bad idea?
Get a new dictionary for Christmas? All excited about learning and using new words?
Ford not including a spare tire, so a driver could be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a flat tire.
Apple not including a display adapter, so a user could be stranded.....
Well, I'm sure there's a parallel there, somewhere!
I just want to be clear - you think that I should do extensive market research before I can render my opinion on a company's business decision? Honestly, what is the threshold for having an opinion on a public forum? I crossed a line by stating my opinion that Apple is making a bad marketing move my taking out cheap accessories while singing its praises for its designs and OS??? If THAT'S crossing the line for you, I'm not sure how you tolerate most people's views of more important topics.
Parsimoniously, I am assuming a lot less than you are when I propose that Apple did this to save a couple of bucks and to make more in marked-up accessory sales than your proposal that Apple did research, found that people didn't use these accessories, and took them out to lower prices. Seriously, where is the burden on you to substantiate this hypothesis? Companies sometimes do things that are simply thoughtless. LOTS of companies produce ads using research and focus and evaluation groups and then find that they bomb. Coke poured literally millions into their perceptual and marketing research before pushing out New Coke. Exactly what is so sancrosanct about a company's choices?
There are different factors that go into evaluating people's responses. Folks may LOVE Lenovo's products and bundling of options but hate their prices, the Windows OS, or the name for all I know.
I called Apple schizophrenic in the colloquial and not clinical sense. I simply find it odd that they brand the Apple Experience and then do something that I consider cheap-assed.
Get a new dictionary for Christmas? All excited about learning and using new words?
Ford not including a spare tire, so a driver could be stranded in the middle of nowhere with a flat tire.
Apple not including a display adapter, so a user could be stranded.....
Well, I'm sure there's a parallel there, somewhere!
Keep rolling those eyes. It sure lends a lot of weight to your argument. It may help you to feel more confident in your position but it doesn't add a lot substantively.
Since you appear to have difficulty understanding my comparison, let me connect the dots between A and B for you. Do you think it's possible that someone not as knowledeable as yourself could purchase a Macbook and show up for a presentation assuming that they can hook it up to a projector because they've done so before with a PC laptop?
Possible? Of course! People do stupid things all the time! Like not testing all technology used for a presentation hours or days prior, so there's no surprises. Like buying a computer before checking to see "what's in the box", then complaining that a needed adapter wasn't included in the purchase price. Like thinking that rolling eyes is intended to add weight to any argument, rather than what they're intended for: to express an emotional reaction. (Gee? Ya think that's why they're called "emoticons" rather than "weighticons" or "argumenticons"?)
That still doesn't explain what safety equipment such as a spare tire has to do with an optional computer accessory, (not that I'm really expecting an intelligent explanation.)
He was talking about from the employee standpoint, hence the list of 100 companies to work for.
I do agree with everything else youve said so far, but im not through the entire thread yet.
I'm not so sure you understand how a big business works if you think this is true....
Seriously, companies POUR money into the smallest things that could be considered insignificant.
They may seem thoughtless, but only from someone who doesn't understand the sheer meticulousness that the business world has.
Do you think the average computer user knows the difference between DVI, HDMI, mini Display Port, or VGA? Most institutions may have a few common adapters lying around but I wager most don't have one for mini Display Port.
EXPECTED ACCESSORY ONCE INCLUDED AND NOW NOT INCLUDED = DISAPPOINTMENT.
USE OF NON-WIDELY ADOPTED DISPLAY CONNECTOR WITHOUT PROVIDING ADAPTER = POTENTIAL PROBLEMS = TICKED OFF CUSTOMERS.
If you think it is totally irrational or inappropriate to hold both of those sentiments, I wager it is because you are incapable of understanding or simply don't want to.
Now, could you kindly explain to me how a customer with no knowledge of DVI, HDMI, mini Display Port, or VGA would come to expect an adaptor for them?
Thanks.
Oh yeah, and they would deserve to be laughed out of the meeting. Part of being an adult is taking responsibility for having your tools. sigh.
I am truly sorry for your disappointments in life. You'll have to learn to get along somehow.
okay, so im looking at the Lenovo U110's bundling luxury you are talking about...
...and i dont see where their remote is...
...nor can i spot where their monitor cables are...
and now i am looking at hp, dell, sony, and whatever else you want to throw in the equation...
and i dont see where their bundling packages include a remote.
i see you can get a remote added on, from some hp notebooks...for an extra $30.
i think i was just nickle and dimed from them too.
waaaaaa.
last i checked, the macbooks still come with a charger, install discs, battery.
that right there is everything you NEED.
other luxury add on's are not standard in any other company.
props to Lenovo U110 for having two batteries. most end users wont ever use the second one.
...and i dont see where their remote is...
...nor can i spot where their monitor cables are...
and now i am looking at hp, dell, sony, and whatever else you want to throw in the equation...
and i dont see where their bundling packages include a remote.
i see you can get a remote added on, from some hp notebooks...for an extra $30.
i think i was just nickle and dimed from them too.
waaaaaa.
last i checked, the macbooks still come with a charger, install discs, battery.
that right there is everything you NEED.
other luxury add on's are not standard in any other company.
props to Lenovo U110 for having two batteries. most end users wont ever use the second one.
Judging from all the "will this work with this?" threads I see in this forum, I'd say there are quite a few "newbies" who know enough to ask about such things, not to mention "average" users (whatever "average" is.) To buy anything without fully understanding what you're getting for your money and without knowing if it will serve the purpose you have in mind, is to buy foolishly.
I don't think it's irrational or inappropriate to be disappointed or ticked off. I do think it's irrational or inappropriate to claim that Apple made a mistake in making choices that you happen not to agree with or like, without knowing or understanding all the facts and factors that went into such decisions.
Keep using those capital letters. It sure lends a lot of weight to your argument. It may help you to feel more confident in your position but it doesn't add a lot substantively.
EXPECTED ACCESSORY ONCE INCLUDED AND NOW NOT INCLUDED = DISAPPOINTMENT.
disappointment.