Nickle and Dimed

[Psychmike]

I'm not so sure you understand how a big business works if you think this is true....

Seriously, companies POUR money into the smallest things that could be considered insignificant.

They may seem thoughtless, but only from someone who doesn't understand the sheer meticulousness that the business world has.

Your deference of large organizations is truly baffling.

Meticulousness does not equal thoughtfulness. It is very easy to spend a great deal of effort looking at the wrong things. NASA has armies of technicians and scientists and is certainly the most meticulous organization I know of but they still under-estimated the chances of a catastrophic shuttle loss by an order of magnitude.

If you wish to restrict the discussion to the corporate sphere, how do you explain the failure of New Coke? How do you explain the failure of Vista to meet Microsoft's projected sales numbers? How do you explain how the large banks were so wrong in their statistical analysis of risk of securitized assets?

Really, I do respect your stated experience in business. There is no part of me that is calling business people stupid or naive. But as I'm sure you know better than I, corporations are not homogenous entities, they're often smaller organizations working with competing interests. Marketing might want one thing, engineering another, and research something different. So yes, I believe the end product of an imperfect system can be thoughtlessness if the executive does not have access to the right information and correctly models costs and benefits.

 

[petermcphee]

*SNIP*Until then, you're just one of the minority of Apple customers who likes to complain.

I read that sentence. Then, I looked at the address bar of my web browser to make sure I was still on the right website. Then, I laughed.

 

[Psychmike]

Now, could you kindly explain to me how a customer with no knowledge of DVI, HDMI, mini Display Port, or VGA would come to expect an adaptor for them?

Thanks.

If someone has used a PC laptop for years and never had trouble connecting it to their research, corporate, or academic AV equipment before and they recently buy a Macbook and finds out at an inopportune moment that Apple uses a not-yet-widely accepted display connector, do you not think they might be ticked? Do you not think they might be further annoyed to find out that the only place they can get one is from the Apple store for $30?

 

[GGJstudios]

I read that sentence. Then, I looked at the address bar of my web browser to make sure I was still on the right website. Then, I laughed.

Glad I could brighten your day! Yes, as shocking as it may seem, the entire membership of MR forums (and all Mac-related forums combined) still represents a very small minority of Mac users, even if everyone in such forums complained (which they don't).

 

[NT1440]

Your deference of large organizations is truly baffling.

Meticulousness does not equal thoughtfulness. It is very easy to spend a great deal of effort looking at the wrong things. NASA has armies of technicians and scientists and is certainly the most meticulous organization I know of but they still under-estimated the chances of a catastrophic shuttle loss by an order of magnitude.

If you wish to restrict the discussion to the corporate sphere, how do you explain the failure of New Coke? How do you explain the failure of Vista to meet Microsoft's projected sales numbers? How do you explain how the large banks were so wrong in their statistical analysis of risk of securitized assets?

Really, I do respect your stated experience in business. There is no part of me that is calling business people stupid or naive. But as I'm sure you know better than I, corporations are not homogenous entities, they're often smaller organizations working with competing interests. Marketing might want one thing, engineering another, and research something different. So yes, I believe the end product of an imperfect system can be thoughtlessness if the executive does not have access to the right information and correctly models costs and benefits.

Using new coke as your example heres what it boils down to:

Bad idea != thoughtlessness

A HUGE amount of thought goes into these decisions, that doesnt mean it will be a success. Look at the segway, the guy spent like 10 years coming up with it and it has failed miserably from what he expected.

 

[Psychmike]

Glad I could brighten your day! Yes, as shocking as it may seem, the entire membership of MR forums (and all Mac-related forums combined) still represents a very small minority of Mac users, even if everyone in such forums complained (which they don't).

I'm new to Macs. Do you think most people here complain about Apple, defend it, or some combination of both? In any case, there certainly seem to be a lot of strong feelings!

 

[IJ Reilly]

Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in?

 

[petermcphee]

Glad I could brighten your day! Yes, as shocking as it may seem, the entire membership of MR forums (and all Mac-related forums combined) still represents a very small minority of Mac users, even if everyone in such forums complained (which they don't).

No, I know. You're right about that. It's just that my perspective is distorted by the amount of time I spend on MR. Which, as of late, is more than usual.

Please, carry on with the thread.

 

[liquidtrend]

I'm new to Macs. Do you think most people here complain about Apple, defend it, or some combination of both?

definatly a combination of both. and of course you will see more complaints than praise. people on the internet seem to post about negative things more so than things being peachy keen.

 

[NT1440]

If someone has used a PC laptop for years and never had trouble connecting it to their research, corporate, or academic AV equipment before and they recently buy a Macbook and finds out at an inopportune moment that Apple uses a not-yet-widely accepted display connector, do you not think they might be ticked? Do you not think they might be further annoyed to find out that the only place they can get one is from the Apple store for $30?

I'd say they are an idiot or just downright bad shopper for not making sure that their new $1000+ purchase can do what they need it to do. Also, standards change at amazing rates, anyone expecting 100% for their NEW product to be compatible with whatever connector theyve been using "for years" (eternity in the tech world) just isnt being realistic.

Very few people plunk down that much money, bring it home, set it up, then go to themselves "NOW lets see if it will work with my devices".

 

[Psychmike]

definatly a combination of both. and of course you will see more complaints than praise. people on the internet seem to post about negative things more so than things being peachy keen.

Yeah, but Apple has a reputation for producing a cult following. In any case, people seem highly invested in their relation to Apple. I can't imagine most people caring that much about their Dell.

 

[Psychmike]

I'd say they are an idiot or just downright bad shopper for not making sure that their new $1000+ purchase can do what they need it to do. Also, standards change at amazing rates, anyone expecting 100% for their NEW product to be compatible with whatever connector theyve been using "for years" (eternity in the tech world) just isnt being realistic.

Very few people plunk down that much money, bring it home, set it up, then go to themselves "NOW lets see if it will work with my devices".

You obviously don't communicate often with people who work in IT. They are forever complaining of just that.

 

[GGJstudios]

If someone has used a PC laptop for years and never had trouble connecting it to their research, corporate, or academic AV equipment before and they recently buy a Macbook and finds out at an inopportune moment that Apple uses a not-yet-widely accepted display connector, do you not think they might be ticked? Do you not think they might be further annoyed to find out that the only place they can get one is from the Apple store for $30?

If someone has been using a PC laptop for years and only recently switched to a Mac, they'd be monumentally ignorant not to check and double-check everything, to make sure everything they do is compatible with a new platform. With the wealth of information on Apple's site, as well as so many forums and Mac-related sites, there is no excuse for being "surprised", unless someone is too lazy to do their homework prior to buying. I researched Macs for a year before switching. While most may not take that much time, those who are prudent would at least ask questions of a sales rep to find out if a new Mac will connect properly with existing devices. To wait until an "inopportune moment" to check things out only shows poor planning.

 

[Psychmike]

If someone has been using a PC laptop for years and only recently switched to a Mac, they'd be monumentally ignorant not to check and double-check everything, to make sure everything they do is compatible with a new platform. With the wealth of information on Apple's site, as well as so many forums and Mac-related sites, there is no excuse for being "surprised", unless someone is too lazy to do their homework prior to buying. I researched Macs for a year before switching. While most may not take that much time, those who are prudent would at least ask questions of a sales rep to find out if a new Mac will connect properly with existing devices. To wait until an "inopportune moment" to check things out only shows poor planning.

You know you really have the tendency to resort to ad hominem attacks.

 

[NT1440]

You obviously don't communicate often with people who work in IT. They are forever complaining of just that.

Again, morons. ESPECIALLY if they work in IT.

(I know MOST of the IT people at my moms work are morons like that too)

 

[liquidtrend]

Yeah, but Apple has a reputation for producing a cult following. In any case, people seem highly invested in their relation to Apple. I can't imagine most people caring that much about their Dell.

if you are willing to spend (X) on an apple product, you better be confident AND have its back. (or at least...IMO).

 

[GGJstudios]

Is this a private fight, or can anybody join in?

Put on your gloves and jump in, my friend!

I'm new to Macs. Do you think most people here complain about Apple, defend it, or some combination of both? In any case, there certainly seem to be a lot of strong feelings!

Welcome to Mac ownership! You're gonna love it! You'll find that most who come to forums do so for a few reasons:

• They need help and come to ask for it.
• They like helping and come to give it.
• They like to complain and want a soapbox to stand on.
• They like to hear themselves talk.
• Very rarely does someone come here just to say, "I love my Mac. It's working perfectly. I just wanted the world to know!"

Yeah, but Apple has a reputation for producing a cult following. In any case, people seem highly invested in their relation to Apple. I can't imagine most people caring that much about their Dell.

Yes, I've noticed that phenomenon, as well. I can't explain it, but having a fiercely loyal customer base is something that every company wishes they could have! I'm not a fanboy of any computer or any company. A computer is a tool. To the extent that it meets my needs, I'm happy with it. When it ceases to do so, I find something more appropriate, no matter who makes it. If I were a "fan" of any company, it would be Harley-Davidson, considered by most in the business world to have the most loyal customer base in history. And that, without the most advanced or competitively priced products in their market.

Again, morons. ESPECIALLY if they work in IT.

(I know MOST of the IT people at my moms work are morons like that too)

Don't get me started on the IT mentality! There are always exceptions but, as a rule, about as bright as a box of rocks!

 

[NT1440]

You know you really have the tendency to resort to ad hominem attacks.

Care to explain how pointing out the fallacy in an argument is "an attack" >?

 

[Psychmike]

if you are willing to spend (X) on an apple product, you better be confident AND have its back. (or at least...IMO).

Great observation. Have you heard of dissonance reduction research? Basically it states that cognitions are secondary to emotional and behavioural commitment. In other words - get someone to do something and they'll find a reason to defend it post hoc.

Experimentally, researchers have repeatedly found that people who are asked to rank songs, books, flavors of ice cream change their rankings when they are given their second or third choice and re-rank those choices as their first.

 

[jaw04005]

It's time to give up on Front Row. It hasn't played a role in Apple's marketing materials since the introduction of Leopard, and the removal of the Apple Remote as a default accessory doesn't bode well for the future. Unless something changes in Snow Leopard, Front Row development is dead.

I wouldn't be surprised if the final build of Snow Leopard strips Front Row out completely, so they can start removing the IR receiver from future Macs.

They did the same thing with the iPods and nobody seemed to mind in the long run.

True, but at least Apple lowered the price drastically on the iPods. The same can't be said for the Mac line. Every Mac product has maintained roughly the same pricing for line equivalent models since 1997.

You can take a stroll through www.apple-history.com to see how Apple constantly repeats and revisits price points across each of their lines.

Right now, the iMac line's average pricing is tied with the 2004 line for the most expensive iMac line ever.

In some ways, Apple is taking its loyal fan-base for granted. By stripping features like Firewire, the Apple Remote, the display adapters out of its products and using bargain basement parts (Xeon W3520, lower clocked Core 2 Duos) in their premium priced products, they hurt their value.

Will we put up with it? Probably. I don't mind paying a premium, but even the biggest Apple supporter should be able to realize that the "cost vs. performance vs. value add" has been hurting the last few years.

The parts Apple uses aren't special anymore. They aren't manufactured for them. They're commodity parts that are subject to market prices. Other than Apple's designer aluminum cases and software, what they're selling is what every other PC manufacturer is selling. At some point, consumers will realize this (just like they did in the mid-90's), but right now they're the "Google" of the computer manufacturer industry — anything they do will be met with praise no matter if better alternatives exist.

On to the adapters ...

Apple charges $29 for a mini-DisplayPort to DVI adapter. The same adapter at Monoprice is $15, and you know Monoprice has a mark-up also.

Clearly, people are not happy about this. Just look at the ratings and comments for the adapters on the Apple Store.

 

[Slurpy2k8]

Thanks for the comment but I think I addressed your retort in my original post. No, Apple doesn't owe me a remote. No, they don't owe me a mini display port adapter. But at some point they included both with the sale of a laptop. Ommitting them both might save Apple $10 but somehow I don't think they were concerned with saving buyers who don't use them that cost. Did they lower the price when they took them out? More likely they are trying to sell them separately at a significant markup.

It takes a real fan of the company to see them taking out something that they used to include as a favor to other buyers. Would you say the same thing about Apple ommitting a keyboard or mouse from new iMacs? After all, most people have a couple of those lying around too. I know it's a bit of a sophist argument (the things they've taken out aren't essential while a keyboard and mouse are) but my point is that a company that obviously puts so much pride in the 'Apple Experience' sends a contrary message by taking out things that many people would consider reasonable accessories to include.

Rational, level-headed posts such as yours are rarely taken well here. As an admitted apple-fan myself, I'm constantly disgusted and saddened by how far some will go to defend apple at any costs, and to mock, deride, and silence any valid criticism towards them.

So, now Apple has taken out the remote previously included with a mac mini- unlike the macbook, this is a unit that may commonly be used as an HTC, connected to an HDTV. How some can defend a decision such as this as something other than pure penny-pinching is ludicrous, especially since the mac mini, by all rationalizations, is not a great value at all, and has just increased in price by $100. You people defending apple when it makes these moves are not doing the company any favors.

 

[MattInOz]

So you are willing to purchase a $2000+ laptop but wont because you would need to buy two adapters totaling a whopping $60? You don't have to purchase the adapters, they are optional. Would you rather pay an additional $60 for the laptop and them just be included?

Indeed, also If you can't get $60 worth of deal sweetening on a $2k sales your talking to the wrong sales person. Or just aren't that personable.

 

[liquidtrend]

Great observation. Have you heard of dissonance reduction research? Basically it states that cognitions are secondary to emotional and behavioural commitment. In other words - get someone to do something and they'll find a reason to defend it post hoc.

Experimentally, researchers have repeatedly found that people who are asked to rank songs, books, flavors of ice cream change their rankings when they are given their second or third choice and re-rank those choices as their first.

but why would this be an example of cognitive dissonance? we arent (I am not) defending something because i have invested money into it. It is more likely that i am defending something i have learned and understand in which point, i have then invested money into it. would that still be considered the same?

 

[Psychmike]

It's time to give up on Front Row. It hasn't played a role in Apple's marketing materials since the introduction of Leopard, and the removal of the Apple Remote as a default accessory doesn't bode well for the future. Unless something changes in Snow Leopard, Front Row development is dead.

You think so? Front Row doesn't really work for me but I have been mulling over using a Mac as a centre for a media hub (PVR, DVD, audio). Given how well Apple has expanded what most people can do with iWorks and iLife they seem like a good candidate for moving the computer off the desktop and into the living room of the average consumer.

 

[jaw04005]

You think so?

Yes. I think the Front Row team has moved on to the Apple TV, and that will remain their focus from here on out. There have been no rumors or even talk of Front Row 3.0 in Snow Leopard that I'm aware of.