Nickle and Dimed

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah, but Apple has a reputation for producing a cult following. In any case, people seem highly invested in their relation to Apple. I can't imagine most people caring that much about their Dell.

And where does this "cult following" idea get promoted? In the media. Apple can sell over 100 million iPods, but apparently they have all been sold to the "Apple faithful," if you believe the media reports. It has always been thus. Apple is now officially the world's largest "cult." Odd how you never hear the customers of any other company described as cultists.

Not that some people don't buy into the concept. Each and every time Apple releases a new product, without fail, literally dozens of threads pop up here instantly declaring that Apple has lost it, has made a huge mistake, is going to pot, is stupid, greedy, insane, run by complete dolts -- you name it. The rationale behind these declarations are always identical: Apple hasn't made my life a better place today. And it has to be today, tomorrow or the next day will never do. It's a weird and wearisome phenomenon, which has only intensified as Apple has become more and more successful.

 

[petermcphee]

SNIP

Not that some people don't buy into the concept. Each and every time Apple releases a new product, without fail, literally dozens of threads pop up here instantly declaring that Apple has lost it, has made a huge mistake, is going to pot, is stupid, greedy, insane, run by complete dolts -- you name it. The rationale behind these declarations are always identical: Apple hasn't made my life a better place today. And it has to be today, tomorrow or the next day will never do. It's a weird and wearisome phenomenon.

This is a great observation. The folks that demand feature X be included always seem to strike me as not seeing the forest for the trees. You just summed up that feeling better than I could have. So, thanks... I guess.

 

[GGJstudios]

And where does this "cult following" idea get promoted? ... Each and every time Apple releases a new product, without fail, literally dozens of threads pop up here instantly declaring that Apple has lost it, has made a huge mistake, is going to pot, is stupid, greedy, insane, run by complete dolts -- you name it. The rationale behind these declarations are always identical: Apple hasn't made my life a better place today. And it has to be today, tomorrow or the next day will never do. It's a weird and wearisome phenomenon, which has only intensified as Apple has become more and more successful.

I wonder if this is partly due to the youthful demographic that Apple targets. With companies that target an older, more mature demographic, the "cult" mentality is more rare, as is the tendency to whine or complain when the customer doesn't get their way or when they think the company is "unfair".

 

[Psychmike]

Get out your dictionary. Turn to page....

I said, "If someone has been using a PC laptop for years and only recently switched to a Mac, they'd be monumentally ignorant not to check and double-check everything, to make sure everything they do is compatible with a new platform." I didn't call anyone ignorant (which is not an insult, if you understand the word). For someone NOT to check out their new Mac would be an ignorant thing to do. They would have to be ignorant (lacking knowledge or awareness) if they failed to check for compatibility.

Alright, why don't you wait 6 months, pop into the IT department of a largish university or hospital or Apple Store and ask them how often it has happened, and then reassert that all those cases involved people who were monumentally ignorant.

And to backpedal and say that calling someone "monumentally ignorant" is NOT an insult is frankly ludicrous. Although the primary definition of ignorant may be in regards to lacking knowledge, a common secondary definition includes a lack of character or class. Although it may be ARGUABLE that you did not intend to be rude when you used the term 'ignorant' you undoubtedly meant to be insulting when you said that such a customer would be 'monumentally ignorant'. Why don't you call your boss / husband / wife monumentally ignorant and see if they take offence.

It's a little perplexing that someone who seems to have so little patience for other human beings has such deference for a corporation. Sheesh.

 

[GGJstudios]

Alright, why don't you wait 6 months, pop into the IT department of a largish university or hospital or Apple Store and ask them how often it has happened, and then reassert that all those cases involved people who were monumentally ignorant.

If you spent much time in IT departments, you'd find their disdain for most end-users involves language that would get someone banned in this forum. Only the uninformed have a blind belief that all those in IT departments know what they're doing.

And to backpedal and say that calling someone "monumentally ignorant" is NOT an insult is frankly ludicrous. Although the primary definition of ignorant may be in regards to lacking knowledge, a common secondary definition includes a lack of character or class.

Well, it doesn't take a lack of character or class to fail to check compatibility when switching to a new computer platform. It does, however, denote a lack of knowledge or experience. If you can't figure out which definition was intended in that context, then you need to spend more quality time with your dictionary.

It's a little perplexing that someone who seems to have so little patience for other human beings has such deference for a corporation. Sheesh.

I'm not showing deference for Apple. I'm simply saying that your failure to fully understand why they make a particular decision doesn't necessarily mean that decision is flawed.

 

[NT1440]

Alright, why don't you wait 6 months, pop into the IT department of a largish university or hospital or Apple Store and ask them how often it has happened, and then reassert that all those cases involved people who were monumentally ignorant.

And to backpedal and say that calling someone "monumentally ignorant" is NOT an insult is frankly ludicrous. Although the primary definition of ignorant may be in regards to lacking knowledge, a common secondary definition includes a lack of character or class. Although it may be ARGUABLE that you did not intend to be rude when you used the term 'ignorant' you undoubtedly meant to be insulting when you said that such a customer would be 'monumentally ignorant'. Why don't you call your boss / husband / wife monumentally ignorant and see if they take offence.

It's a little perplexing that someone who seems to have so little patience for other human beings has such deference for a corporation. Sheesh.

Let me break it down for you.

You use product x for years and years.
You decide "im going to buy product y"

WHY would someone moving to a whole different platform NOT check for compatiblity beforehand?

As for the underlined, it happens, but it is a direct result of either ignorance or sheer incompetance.

 

[Halsey12]

I've got 5 or 6 Apple remotes laying around the house. I only use one of them. I bet a lot more adaptors and remotes end up in landfills that we'd expect.

 

[NT1440]

I've got 5 or 6 Apple remotes laying around the house. I only use one of them. I bet a lot more adaptors and remotes end up in landfills that we'd expect.

I'm often annoyed by the cables I get with many products, how many standard micro usb does someone need??

 

[vaderhater245]

Can't we all just get along here? We're all here for a reason. To show our love for mac computers.

 

[NT1440]

Can't we all just get along here? We're all here for a reason. To show our love for mac computers.

Thats not why I'm here actually. I like forums, and this site has some of the best dicussions for me (because im a nerd).

In fact, I dont even own a mac


yet.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I wonder if this is partly due to the youthful demographic that Apple targets. With companies that target an older, more mature demographic, the "cult" mentality is more rare, as is the tendency to whine or complain when the customer doesn't get their way or when they think the company is "unfair".

I think it goes back into the history of the company and the industry. Apple actively cultivated the upstart image, especially after the release of the Mac. They cast themselves as the "anti-IBM." Then when Apple began to get into trouble in the mid-90s, the customers who hung on started being referred to in the media as Apple cultists and the Apple faithful, as if to say there could be no rational reason why anyone would stick with the Mac in the face of the inevitable. I don't think Apple needs to cultivate this image any longer -- it appears to be dyed right into the cloth.

 

[NT1440]

Money issues.

Ive been saving since october. Should be ready by any minor updates in june

 

[GGJstudios]

I think it goes back into the history of the company and the industry. Apple actively cultivated the upstart image, especially after the release of the Mac. They cast themselves as the "anti-IBM." ...

That's right, and Apple actively courted the younger demographic, beginning with their early focus on university campuses for both customers and developers.

Money issues.
Ive been saving since october. Should be ready by any minor updates in june

You're gonna love it! It's worth the wait!

 

[NT1440]

Oh im quite in love with OSX (basically was my exlusive OS for two weeks at my aunts, and that was TIGER!), and Ive spent way too many hours with the aluminum macbook than any sane person who doesn't own one should.

 

[IJ Reilly]

That's right, and Apple actively courted the younger demographic, beginning with their early focus on university campuses for both customers and developers.

Younger perhaps, but also "anti-establishment," as we used to say. The IBM-PC was for dull corporate people (remember the infamous "lemmings" ad?) The Mac was the computer for everybody else. But I really think this concept of Apple as a cult gained a lot of acceptance in the media during the darkest days for Apple, the mid-1990s.

 

[Patriks7]

Wow, I'm sorry to state this, but your arguments are pretty pathetic. Comparing a car to a laptop? Good one. And you are complaining about Apple not including something they last included like 2 years ago? (I got two MacBooks in 2007, and neither of them had cables, and I maybe used the remote once) And your argument about people not knowing the difference between these ports, well those people probably don't have a need for it! The adaptors and remotes are not a necessity, but a luxury. If you want it, then you have to buy it. Why should someone buying a computer pay for something they will never use?
Anyway I'm too busy working on school projects using my T260 hooked up to my MBP with the MiniDisplay Port adapter which I bought (without even thinking about it) so I'll come back later.

 

[cmcbridejr]

Psychmike,

After going through 4 pages of replies concerning your post, it seems as though you are in the minority about what Apple needs to include as accessories.

Let's just end here. We've all heard enough of both sides of the argument.

The conclusion is, if you see "value" in what Apple offers, then buy their products. If not, then don't buy their products.

There's no right or wrong answer. The choice to purchase or not is made up to the consumer.

Have a great day!

 

[Yanwoo]

I have 3 of these damn remotes at home. I was pleased they didn't include one in my recently purchased Macbook Pro.

Thank you Apple for not making me pay for stuff I don't need.

On the other hand, I did have to buy a mini display cable. Hey ho. I don't feel nickle and dimed. I choose to be an Apple customer and understand what that means from time-to-time...

 

[zhenya]

Thanks for the comment but I think I addressed your retort in my original post. No, Apple doesn't owe me a remote. No, they don't owe me a mini display port adapter. But at some point they included both with the sale of a laptop. Ommitting them both might save Apple $10 but somehow I don't think they were concerned with saving buyers who don't use them that cost. Did they lower the price when they took them out? More likely they are trying to sell them separately at a significant markup.

No, previously you were paying for them - probably nearly the same amount as they charge now - it was just built in to the price. The fact that they have broken that cost out now makes it much more visible, but could be considered better value for the customer, who now isn't forced to pay for something they might not need.

If you went to buy a new Ford tomorrow and noticed that they are now not including a spare tire, would it be so outrageous to go on a Ford forum and say you disagree with their approach and think it's a bad idea?

Actually, many new cars don't include spare tires. They specify run-flats instead.

If someone has used a PC laptop for years and never had trouble connecting it to their research, corporate, or academic AV equipment before and they recently buy a Macbook and finds out at an inopportune moment that Apple uses a not-yet-widely accepted display connector, do you not think they might be ticked? Do you not think they might be further annoyed to find out that the only place they can get one is from the Apple store for $30?

You do realize that the alternative is that the vast majority of pc's still come with VGA connectors, most likely because that is what users 'expect' and know how to use. Apple has always been one to push new, better tech, and while it may be irritating, believe me, it's much more irritating that a new, $2000 pc laptop doesn't even have the option of digital out - let alone the ability to run super-high resolutions. Should apple include every adapter that every user might ever need?

 

[clyde2801]

You're absolutely right. When they were using a unique hardware architecture, it was harder to make direct comparisons but now that everyone is using the Intel architecture it's very clear that Apple leverages their great software to sell pretty but over-priced hardware.

I couldn't agree more. Well said. I keep waiting for Windows to come out with a unix based OS and support existing software on a virtualization layer like how Apple did switching from OS 9 to OS X, and from PPC to Intel. If MS can do this, and make it run on machines from Dell and the like, and allow upgradability (making it easy for someone to upgrade a graphics card in a tower, for example) you'll probably see a lot fewer people running into the Apple store, unless they're going to buy an iPod.

The way I see it, the only thing saving Apple from its greed and arrogance is Microsoft's stupidty and shortsightedness.

 

[seedster2]

OP has a very valid point

I expected him to be bashed for his position, but it is valid complaint.

I purchased the first generation MB AIR (craptastic performance so returned). It included all the cables necessary to add a secondary display.

Next generation was the same price but included nothing. How is Apple looking out for the customer by not including them? Accessories were removed yet price has remained the same....awesome deal

Same was done with iPhone dock (now a $30 accessory) and iPods.

I find excuses for accessory exclusions like "they are making my life simpler" and "reducing waste" absolutely ridiculous. Just call it what it is "nickel and diming". All these years buying their products my friends and I have never received a single market research questionnaire asking if I use certain accessories. Im sure others have not either.

They are entitled to maximize their profits but to defend it by calling it anything else seems RDF.

 

[cmcbridejr]

I purchased the first generation MB AIR (craptastic performance so returned). It included all the cables necessary to add a secondary display.

Next generation was the same price but included nothing. How is Apple looking out for the customer by not including them? Accessories were removed yet price has remained the same....awesome deal

The second generation MacBook Air now uses two different suppliers for parts - Intel and NVIDIA. Maybe Intel cut them a deal on the first gen since they were the only supplier. Now that they have to pay two suppliers, they had to make up for the cost difference by eliminating an unnecessary accessory.

Simply put, you don't know what Apple is paying NVIDIA for their graphics card in relation to what Apple payed Intel. Intel most likely cut them a better deal for using their processor and graphics card the first time around.

 

[Gasu E.]

Wow! Thank you SO much for clearing everything up for me! How utterly silly for me to vent on a discussion forum. Sheesh. Exactly what makes you think that people aren't 'moving on'? No one's slitting their wrists..

No one should criticize you on a discussion board? If you don't like, don't post.

 

[Gasu E.]

Apple certainly seems schizophrenic. On the one hand, they market their products as lifestyle / boutique objects of wunderlust and yet they seem to nickle and dime people who buy them. Now they're not including display adapters or remote controls with their Macbooks.
.

Valid point on display adapters, but not remotes. Several years ago, when the remote was new, it made sense to bundle them to get people to adopt them. Now many people are buying replacement machines and already have a remote; the don't need two. Why include that in the price of the system? Once the customer base hits a tipping point, it makes sense to unbundle an item and charge separately for the subset of people who need it. It's just common sense. Specific options, like all features, have a lifecycle. If Apple never did this, they would still be bundling floppy drives.

 

[Unspeaked]

Valid point on display adapters, but not remotes. Several years ago, when the remote was new, it made sense to bundle them to get people to adopt them. Now many people are buying replacement machines and already have a remote; the don't need two. Why include that in the price of the system? Once the customer base hits a tipping point, it makes sense to unbundle an item and charge separately for the subset of people who need it. It's just common sense. Specific options, like all features, have a lifecycle. If Apple never did this, they would still be bundling floppy drives.

That seems not far removed from arguing that they shouldn't include power adapters...