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Apples and oranges. 1 day does not cover rent in a 2 bedroom/2 bath apartment but in a 8-person dorm with bunk beds and common bathroom. I read an article that one man in NYC rented from a roommate just a niche above the door with a matras for $200. Sure, this can be covered with 1-day NY salary.

Also a 12-hour work day 6 days a week is terrible even with 2 meal brakes. No time for web browsing and message board posts :) BTW a 12-hour work day became illegal in Soviet Russia back in 1918.

I work 16 hour days six days a week and often eat while I work... There again, I make much more in an hour than these workers make in a day.

But I find an interesting thing that the Foxconn executives are not using the dismissive language of say, a Best Buy when it screws up and writes a passive email to customers acting as if the problem is not theirs.

I have to give Apple credit for taking the flack that should be directed at the whole industry and using it as an opportunity to conduct a massive audit and hold everyone accountable.

I guarantee you that this was not taken sleeping, and that many managers and executives handling Apple's supply chain management had hopped on a plane immediately after a meeting called by Cook and were expected to take full ownership of the situation.

Having been born in India, and living here for thirty years... I find it's important to keep perspective about living standards. America and India both have a 50% poverty rate... but they define poverty very differently. In America, if you are a family of four earning $44,000 household income, that's poverty (by the federal definition). Even adjusted for cost of living, the kind of lifestyle that would equate to the purchasing power of that family in India is far from poverty in that culture's expectation of standard of living.

In the US, salaried and non-salaried employees are used to 60 hour work weeks. While the "average" in the US is 33 hours per week, 85% of men and 66% of women work more than 40 hours per week. 60 hours, which is pretty typical for a skilled worker here in the US, is basically 12 hour work days. Now imagine you come from a rural area of China, where you're not used to the lifestyle and you go for a job at Foxconn... these are some of the people who are having a very difficult time (and understandably so) with the rapid shift in China's standard of living in urban areas.

The same was true of tribal cultures being swept up by the agricultural revolution six thousand years ago... where people might have worked 8 to 10 hours a week for the same relative amount of happiness that we have today.

I'm not saying any of this as a "good" or "bad" judgment on Foxconn's practices. It's important that China strike a balance between economic growth and preservation of culture. But even without American involvement, they're going through what workers in Japan went through a few years ago.... students entering the workforce, doing 16 hour days seven days a week contributed to much of Japan's economic strength in the latter 20th century, but then a rash of suicides sprang up among young professionals. It's not healthy for any country any way you slice it, but it's not because $1.78 an hour is a horrible wage in that country.

At some point, some cultures have to decide, as the Mayans did, that all that glitters is not gold... and maybe they don't want to be dragged kicking and screaming into the kind of lifestyle that we take for granted in America. Apple didn't create that problem, and it's not their sole responsibility to solve that problem, but Steve Jobs' greatest contribution to this world was the concept of Apple Inc. itself: A forward-thinking company whose ideas break the mold of design by committee, whose thought processes demand creativity and innovation, whose product design goes well beyond selling people merely what they're willing to settle for, whose materials prove that you can transition to greener business AND be profitable, and whose labor practices could very soon set the gold standard for how companies all over the world function...

And some day they'll be teaching courses on it to future managers, just as John R. Commons, with funding from John D. Rockefeller following a bloody strike at a Rockefeller coal mine, established the first academic program teaching Industrial Relations - now understood as the pillar of Human Resources Management which never existed prior to the industrial revolution of the early 20th century.

What comes out of this will change labor practices in the industrialized world for centuries to come.
 
Yes but Apple pays Foxconn, can Foxconn pay them high wages if Apple does't cover it?

Yes because Foxconn is a business with a healthy bottom line, and builds their cost structure into what they charge Apple for the products they deliver. If costs go up, they charge Apple more. But they are two separate entities. Apple is no more responsible for Foxconn wages than Foxconn is responsible for Apple's list price on the iPads and iPhones.
 
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hmmm, why am I not surprised?

Perhaps because...

  • Nightline is produced and broadcasted by ABC.
  • ABC is owned by Disney.
  • Disney has a very close relationship with Apple.
  • Apple has Disney's CEO Robert Iger on its board of Directors.

Hence, no surprises.

Truth hurts. No wonder your comment got downranked.
 
Certainly the OWS folks were smart enough to know that the Apple products they were using were the result of the treatment of the workers at Foxconn, yet they continued to use these products made by a company that oppressed the 99% to report and document the OWS movement.

Can you see how we are confused by all of this.

Wonder if Amnesty International has any of these tools of oppression at their offices?

I think you need to research OWS. OWS is about oppression. Whether they used hp pads or galaxy tabs or ipads, it doesnt change the fact that you are oppressed. Saying everyone at OWS uses ipads and iphones is a very uninformed comment. With a name like Prozak I should expect such comments though.
 
So what about Dell, Nintendo and who else? The reporter said Foxconn also employs people working for them. This is just not an Apple thing, it goes way beyond that.
 
hmmm, why am I not surprised?

Perhaps because...

  • Nightline is produced and broadcasted by ABC.
  • ABC is owned by Disney.
  • Disney has a very close relationship with Apple.
  • Apple has Disney's CEO Robert Iger on its board of Directors.

Hence, no surprises.

Truth hurts. No wonder your comment got downranked.
And Macrumors posters are the only people in the world to whom this is obvious. :rolleyes:

This would be immediately self-evident... If Enron couldn't keep the cooking of its books invisible to the eyes of Bethany McLean, then a junior writer at Fortune Magazine, then I'm pretty sure that Apple knows that Bob Iger's presence on their board would get people looking for things to criticize. Clearly, anything less than full transparency at this stage would blow up in their face worse than what already has.
 
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Yes because Foxconn is a business with a healthy bottom line, and builds their cost structure into what the charge Apple for the products they deliver. If costs go up, they charge Apple more. But they are two separate entities. Apple is no more responsible for Foxconn wages than Foxconn is responsible for Apple's list price on the iPads and iPhones.

It might be to complicated for you, try this. Lets say you work in landscaping and I pay you 20 dollars to mow my lawn and you have your employee come mow it. You can pay him more than 20 dollars?
 
And Macrumors posters are the only people in the world to whom this is obvious. :rolleyes:

This would be immediately self-evident... If Enron couldn't keep the cooking of its books invisible to the eyes of Bethany McLean, then a junior writer at Fortune Magazine, then I'm pretty sure that Apple knows that Bob Iger's presence on their board would get people looking for things to criticize. Clearly, anything less than full transparency at this stage would blow up in their face worse than what already has.

I don't think certain macrumors are so willing to accept that reality, too many blind followers for the sake of clinging onto the brand as if it gave them an identity.

I think its rather pathetic that people need a brand or logo to define their own identity.
 
You all realize that if you went to work in a canning factory in Kentucky and slept in an 8-person dorm room with shared bathrooms, you too could pay your room costs with only a day's wages, right? You could probably fit 20 people into a 3-bedroom house renting for only a few hundred dollars a month, costing less than $50 a month rent per person.

I wonder why people aren't running down there to live in dorms and take these jobs?

Heck, you could save even more to send back to your family if you ate $2 worth of rice and beans every day, never went out or had a car, and took the company bus to work. I guess Americans are just selfish for not doing this.

I have worked a job that makes this one look like a vacation. Trust me, when you work 12 or more hours per day, and you don't get days off, you don't care about how nice your place is. All you care about is how long it takes to get to sleep. How big your place is has far less meaning than how long you need to travel to get to it. You don't care how good or bad your food is, you just want it fast. They get breaks for food; They don't need to drive home at the end of the day; I bet they even get to go to the bathroom. They even get to sit down. They have it far better than many Americans.
 
I don't think certain macrumors are so willing to accept that reality, too many blind followers for the sake of clinging onto the brand as if it gave them an identity.

I think its rather pathetic that people need a brand or logo to define their own identity.

I'm neither talking about nor concerned with the lay opinions... what I'm saying here is that in the world of business media coverage, there's lots of competition outside Disney. It's not like they aren't aware of the Bob Iger angle... and it's not like Apple doesn't know that they know that Apple has that connection. Board participation is one of the most public things about any corporation. So to make the claim that this is all whitewashing is odd, since Apple's management would just be setting themselves up for a PR disaster as soon as the other shoe dropped.

They know this because I know this... and I'm not nearly as smart as their managers... and hey, I'm a pretty smart guy!
 
Your missing the point man. We had the infrastructure! and skilled workers! That's how the nation was built! What happened to it?
I'm not missing any point. Things changed (some w/in our control and some outside of our control) and we don't have the infrastructure and skill set to compete on the tech front anymore.

For much of our manufacturing heyday Japan and Europe were rebuilding from WWII so we didn't have as much overseas competition. Other countries might not have the worker safety and environmental regulations that the US does so it could be cheaper to work overseas where you can more freely dump toxic waste into landfills where as in the US you'd actually have to safely store / dispose of your toxic waste. Our education system hasn't changed with the times so companies like MS and Apple have to go overseas, or hire from overseas and bring them to the US, because there literally aren't enough people w/the math and science skills to fill these mid level engineer positions.

Again, read the NYTimes article I linked to as it specifically talks about all of this.


Lethal
 
In some 'asian' countries, committing suicide is a way to make up for doing something bad. Or at least that is how the culture used to be. In the face of certain death, suicide is preferred over murder. The culture has nothing against suicide. For dishonoring your boss you would commit suicide in front of them and your boss would forgive you. I know specifically for Japan suicide is actually infused into the roots of their culture, where there is an entire ceremony surrounding suicide.

It is possible that someone who is a part of that culture, if they had clinical depression, would weigh the hardships and cost of lifelong counseling and optional medication as equally as they would suicide. Which is hard for most Americans (me included) to comprehend. It is far-fetchingly possible that by looking down at the foxconn suicides we are looking down at the difference in perception of suicide between their culture and our own.

Otherwise the Foxconn employees are getting paid at least as much as employees of other nearby companies and have living quarters similar to village residents (and their work hours are considered 'norm'). And the amount they get paid is more than enough for quality-of-life as defined by the standards of the surrounding communities. So it doesn't seem to be anything against Foxconn. And since the employees live on Foxconn property it shouldn't be held against Foxconn that the employee suicides were onsite.
 
I was surprised how much the assembly is done by hand. I had never really thought about it but assumed the process would be much more automated using robots. Apple's release videos for new devices always show some machining of aluminum and automated machinery moving parts along but I guess that's all during manufacturing not assembly.
 
I was surprised how much the assembly is done by hand. I had never really thought about it but assumed the process would be much more automated using robots. Apple's release videos for new devices always show some machining of aluminum and automated machinery moving parts along but I guess that's all during manufacturing not assembly.

Too costly to use robots when the design changes as fast as it does.
 
I think you need to research OWS. OWS is about oppression. Whether they used hp pads or galaxy tabs or ipads, it doesnt change the fact that you are oppressed. Saying everyone at OWS uses ipads and iphones is a very uninformed comment. With a name like Prozak I should expect such comments though.

Opps....

OWS iPhone app finished, need beta testers
http://www.nycga.net/groups/tech/forum/topic/ows-iphone-app-finished-need-beta-testers/

OWS Protesters turn to iPhone App
http://talkingnewmedia.blogspot.com/2011/11/morning-brief-ows-protesters-turn-to.html

OWS news app for iPhone
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/occupy-wall-street-news-pro/id477619117?mt=8

iPhone App Could Be Used To Fight Against Megaphone Ban In Occupy Wall Street Protests
http://www.cultofmac.com/133419/iph...megaphone-ban-in-occupy-wall-street-protests/

OWS.jpg
 
Too costly to use robots when the design changes as fast as it does.

More than that.... When you usually see robots at work, they're making parts. Some assembly is done by robots but that is most often large scale assembly that's very easy to guide by computer. Also, in devices with easy geometric form factors, you'll see preprinted circuitboards and their attached components put together quite often by robots because that too is very straightforward.

However, the assembly of a very tightly integrated device in a not-so-geometric form factor with robots is more complicated than having humans do it because no machine has the complexity of fine tuned motor skills, hand-eye coordination and pressure sensitivity of a human being... not yet. It would be more costly to make robots that can replicate that than to hire workers. And at this stage most of that kind of advanced robotics is purely in the research phase at university labs.
 
Yes. If China wanted to push up wages it would set a higher minimum wage than $240/mo (actually lower in some provinces). It does this to promote overall job growth. Again, remember that China is a planned economy.

Take a look at this for more background

Minimum wage != "planned economy", if by planned economy you're referring to the Marx/Lenin view of it. China is a market economy in every sense of the phrase, albeit with mercantilist government intervention a la what List and Hamilton describe.
 

You only solidify my point, lots of different devices used. Using whats available has always been the way of revolution. What do you expect telegraph? Try again:p
 
You only solidify my point, lots of different devices used. Using whats available has always been the way of revolution. What do you expect telegraph? Try again:p

I think the point is that OWS is not prepared to do what it takes to actually effect any change. You can scream all you want but at the end of the day if you still buy the products that corporate America has to sell, by what stretch of your well-oiled imagination do you think you can get them to change their behavior... at all?

Are you familiar with the InFACT campaigns of the late 1970s and early 1980s? Those were specific, targeted boycotts, with specific, clearly delineated objectives.

Can you summarize, in a single sentence, specifically (not vaguely) what OWS's objective is and what they are prepared to sacrifice in their lifestyles to effect such change?
 

So basically you are saying they should walk around like cavemen and communicate in smoke signals in order to protest greed, corporate irresponsibility and the inordinate amount of political influence that major corporations have on every democratically governments globally? Fair point... if you are on prozac.
 
I think the point is that OWS is not prepared to do what it takes to actually effect any change. You can scream all you want but at the end of the day if you still buy the products that corporate America has to sell, by what stretch of your well-oiled imagination do you think you can get them to change their behavior... at all?

Are you familiar with the InFACT campaigns of the late 1970s and early 1980s? Those were specific, targeted boycotts, with specific, clearly delineated objectives.

Can you summarize, in a single sentence, specifically (not vaguely) what OWS's objective is and what they are prepared to sacrifice in their lifestyles to effect such change?

Really....Really.... Can you summarize (specifically) what anybody else is thinking or prepared to do? Of course not, anybody with half a brain would understand that somethings are beyond choice.
 
Literally an impossible task :eek:

Here's OWS's declaration.

A) It's all over the place, complaining about various industries.
B) It is written as an analogue of the Declaration of Independence, but the difference is that those people were protesting a government, not corporations.... and so it was the government with whom they would have to go to war. Is OWS prepared to "go to war" with the corporations they oppose?
C) There isn't a single statement of intent as to what they plan to boycott or how they plan to hit corporations where it hurts.

This is about as ineffective as it gets. It's great to generate a lot of press by assembling, and getting people into your movement, but now what?

This is why as much as I'm for corporate accountability, consumer awareness, honest profits built on honest business rather than artificially protected information gaps, I can't get behind these guys because time and again I've asked to see a more organized and focused effort, and I've not seen any progress in that direction since their movement started.

----------

Really....Really.... Can you summarize (specifically) what anybody else is thinking or prepared to do? Of course not, anybody with half a brain would understand that somethings are beyond choice.

Yes. You can. In their declaration, why not make a specific list of corporations that are engaged in each of these abuses. Why not organize a boycott of these corporations products? That can't be hard because either these scenarios exist because a specific group of companies engaged in them, or these scenarios do not exist.

Why is it not telling and troubling to you that a fairly large movement hasn't been able to articulate this when InFACT took on numerous corporations one by one in very successful campaigns that were very clearly outlined.

The mere fact that you think this is unattainable suggests laziness or an unwillingness to try. Why wouldn't you?

I have much deeper pockets than the average American, and I'm not impressed by this ambiguous campaign. That doesn't help OWS because if they could get their ducks in a row, then they'd win the support of people like me who have the resources to withhold significant amounts of consumer spending from these corporations.

"some things are beyond choice"

No, they're not. As a consumer you vote with your pocketbook. It amazes me that people who can afford a device that allows them to SEND MESSAGES over AIR in the middle of a STREET, to people, with HIGH RESOLUTION PHOTOGRAPHS has the audacity to complain that their life is crap.

If you want a corporation to change its behavior, you have to hit them where it counts... and if you keep buying their products then, I'm sorry but I don't know what else to call that but abject foolishness and hypocrisy.

Go with your iPhone in hand and complain to some leper in the streets of Mumbai while Mukesh Ambani's $2.7 billion house towers over the slums behind him.

Am I saying that makes corporate malfeasance all right? No. But I'm paraphrasing the old adage:

"Put your money where your mouth is."

I don't like Chik-Fil-A's contributions to Focus on the Family. Guess what? I don't patronize them, EVER. How hard a concept is this to grasp?
 
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LOL @ "It's not exhaustion, it's a Chinese meal tradition" regarding them trying to get sleep in between meal breaks if they shove their food down their face fast enough.

Tradition my a**.

:rolleyes:

Having worked in Taiwan (more or less the same thing as China) in multiple places, I can contribute to the confirmation that, indeed, people would eat fast and then nap during meal breaks. Someone would even turn off the lights and set an alarm after everyone was done eating. I worked in offices, not factories. It's a cultural thing in the Greater Chinese region.
 
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