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No FireWire in MacBooks

Truth

I'm a college student with a Black Macbook (2.2, 4 gb, 160 gb HDD, FIREWIRE PORT) and I have a minidv camera with which I make movies. Not just for fun, for class and for my work with my university. I only bought the Black Premium cause I got it right after they boosted the specs(for the last time on all plastic ones) and the refurb(aka, the canceled orders for when the new ones came out) only cost $50 more($1049, now thats a deal) compared to the white one and it came with 40 gigs more HDD space(I even got 2 gigs of ram for free!). It was a no brainer, and to be honest I absolutely love this computer. It's fast, its easy to use, it runs Final Cut Express very smoothly, as well as other programs simultaneously. So what I'm saying is that for quite literally less than the cost of a student discount Macbook Pro(at the time, $1799) I got a great computer, camera, FIREWIRE cable, extra HDD, and Camera to make high quality videos. My next step, with the upgrade of Final Cut Studio thanks to my university was to get the same affordable, ultra-portable, video editing suite that I had been used to with 3d capability(thanks Nvidia!)without shelling out the extra money for the Pro. But no. Apple instead makes their trackpad fancier, the laptop "greener", and constructs it in an all new fantastic way! Thanks Apple! Thanks for ditching the firewire port which is so critical to so many young filmmakers such as myself, for not making the laptop even slightly more affordable given current economic conditions, and making your middle of the line notebook CPU slower than that of my current computer purchased way back in late February.

You'll get my $1300(hopefully $1200 with my student discount) when you put the damn proprietary connection that you invented and so many people use, firewire, back into your best selling computer.
 
I joined MacRumors today just so that I could vent and show support for you guys.

I was waiting and ready to buy one of the new MBs the moment they were announced. I did a double-take, just to make sure that it had Firewire, and then stopped dead in my tracks.

I started looking for answers, and found this thread.

I reamed out Apple at: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

It is my hope that this company still listens to its supporters.
 
abrownman said:
I joined MacRumors today just so that I could vent and show support for you guys.

I was waiting and ready to buy one of the new MBs the moment they were announced. I did a double-take, just to make sure that it had Firewire, and then stopped dead in my tracks.

I started looking for answers, and found this thread.

I reamed out Apple at: http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

It is my hope that this company still listens to its supporters.
Click to expand...

They do listen. They have in the past. This might be a tough one, though, because if you've seen the breakdown pics yet of the MB, the motherboard actually stops short, and there is no room to put a FW port. They'd have to redesign the whole thing.

I wonder if they'll drop FW from the iMacs next, to get Pros to move to the Mac Pro?
 
That would be something ... apple crippling all their models.

I have thought of buying another Laptop and hackingtosh it. ( I study software engineering so it's not a big deal for me ) . but I have always shown support for apple and their policies, and I like to have the real deal, no problems.

I already sent my feedback, hope all you guys do it , and tell others to do it too.

Oh, and since I'm really tired of people saying : USB Is 480 mb/sec .... that is "true" , but in a reasonable bigger transfer , the speed of the USB decreases over time a lot faster than firewire. You guys who say that PLEASE do your homework before looking like *******s. ( sorry for the word , but it's the right one )

ok so

USB 2.0 Transfer
w2k-direct.png


FireWire 400 Transfer
w2kusb2.png



and just for the record.... some SCSI transfer

98-fw.png


Source :

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/usb20vsfirewire/
This is windows 2k , maybe with some new charts with the actual drivers we could check it out better.

I'm sure someone can come up with even better sources. But it's true. It's not my imagination ( or other people's imagination ).

now a quote:

"At first glance it would appear that USB 2.0 is even faster than FireWire (400); however speed is not the only issue when it comes to DV. One serious issue with USB 2.0 is that it can not guarantee a specified data transfer rate. This is due to USB 2.0 being a master-slave technology, which means it needs a computer's CPU to coordinate the appropriate data transfers. While not a problem when dealing with low demand peripherals such as Web cams, scanners, printers etc, digital video requires dependable performance to avoid dropping video frames.

FireWire is a much more independent technology in that it works in a peer-to-peer relationship. For this reason, many professional DV users are now able to download their video from a DV camcorder to an external hard drive without the use of a PC. Finally, and most importantly, FireWire delivers data consistently at a specific rate. If you want to work with video, even to edit the family movie, go with FireWire."

Source: here

For NON PRO stuff , firewire can be used , of course, ( read NON PRO VIDEO AUDIO IMAGE EDITING ETC ).

EDIT:

Here are some charts with some Apple stuff comparisson:
 
I love Firewire and at first I was shocked at its omission from the MacBook, but it's beginning to sink it now that as a design decision it just wasn't worth putting it in.

I'm ready to concede defeat. Good thing my external drives have eSATA, FW400, FW800 and USB 2 and that I didn't invest in the Apogee Duet yet. Not that I plan on getting the new MacBook anytime soon -- I just got a used PB for portable use and my iMac is scheduled to be replaced next.

My hope is that Apogee comes up with a great USB2 sound device like the Duet -- which until now is in a class of its own for style & integration with system.

--Chris
 
A friend of mine just picked up a new MB. he uses firewire for audio recording. He doesn't pour over forums and news like we do and unfortunately assumed the new MBs had firewire. He was a bit shocked when he got home and started up the new machine. Ouch. He obviously needs to do a return and buy the Pro (he's p1ssed). So what's the deal - restocking fee? or straight up exchange and more cash?

Apple so screwed us on this! I've sent firm complaint messages to the feedback link and sjobs@apple.com.
 
MrGando said:
Oh, and since I'm really tired of people saying : USB Is 480 mb/sec .... that is "true" , but in a reasonable bigger transfer , the speed of the USB decreases over time a lot faster than firewire. You guys who say that PLEASE do your homework before looking like *******s. ( sorry for the word , but it's the right one )
Click to expand...

Haha, now I have the charts to prove what I had been saying all along and was right about it.. haha.
 
polaris20 said:
Likewise, there are a lot of good audio interfaces for musicians that work well over USB2, such as those from M-Audio, Edirol, and MOTU, like the 828MkII.

All really is not lost. At least not completely.

Again, it's still stupid that they made that decision, and I bet on the rev b they'll put it back, just as they did with the FW800 on the previous gen MBP.

It's a big bummer if you already own FW equipment too, such as those of you with the nice Canon prosumer stuff.

But my Presonus Firebox would be useless. Now, I was considering upgrading to an 8-input XLR-equipped box anyway, which for me would mean either the MOTU 828 or M-Audio FastTrack Ultra 8R. But that's besides the point. People should want to upgrade, not be forced to upgrade their equipment.
Click to expand...

I also have a Firebox. There are 2 real issues here (for musicians) with Firewire being dropped from the Macbook.

#1

NO ONE in pro audio would recommend or buy a USB audio card over a firewire card. NO ONE. They are absolutely inferior in almost every aspect. People own EXPENSIVE firewire audio cards. Aside from the MOTU, I doubt there is much on the market for a 10 I/O USB solution and there is good reason why there isn't.

#2

The size of the Macbook Pro. I would have bought the 2.4ghz Macbook had it had firewire. It's 1599. For 400 more I can have the Macbook pro. Sure it's a bit crap to shell out an extra 400 for the upgrade just for a measly port, but it's not entirely outrageous considering what you get. The problem is, I don't want a 15" notebook. I want a new 13", powerful, aluminum current gen firewire equipped notebook for mobile recording and production, and more importantly for live gigs.

Yes we are in the minority here compared to the college kids, but ffs it's a 1cm sized port that costs 2 bucks. I might sound like a Pro, but my pocket book is starving student.
 
I use Target Disk Mode to repair the Macs that i work on.

What are the chances of us seeing USB Target Mode? If not, i'll go get myself an old MBP.
 
^squirrel^ said:
I use Target Disk Mode to repair the Macs that i work on.

What are the chances of us seeing USB Target Mode? If not, i'll go get myself an old MBP.
Click to expand...
From what I've researched Target Disk Mode is only on Macs with FireWire.

Lets remember that the Power Mac G3 B&W doesn't count sadly. ;)
 
Tosser said:
4: make yourself a hackintosh, and slowly migrate to another system instead of being locked in.
5: Cut your losses, and get the hell out of the locked down and limited system the Apple platform has become (before these new MBs/MBPs, they were merely "fast becoming", but with this they are close to the finish line). Switch.
Click to expand...
Switch to Windows? Scaaryy...
 
bking1000 said:
They do listen. They have in the past. This might be a tough one, though, because if you've seen the breakdown pics yet of the MB, the motherboard actually stops short, and there is no room to put a FW port. They'd have to redesign the whole thing.
Click to expand...

By shortening the battery for 1cm, there would be plenty of space for 2 fw & one more usb and standard DP, etc...
It's not hard to redesign, but when Ive's target has been "leave all useless away" and Steve want's fw needers to buy MBP, there will be no motivation for that.
There's also 2 sides that are not used at all and dvd does not occupy the whole right side...
 
unchecked said:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article...o_outrage_over_macbooks_missing_firewire.html
Click to expand...

Thing is, that article makes it sound like a FireWire 400 port would be expensive and push the cost of the machine upwards by a significant amount. It wouldn't. Had Apple kept FireWire 400 in mind, they could easily have put it into the logic board. It doesn't need that much more space, and there is plenty of room for it.

Apple had to weigh several variables, including the cost of incorporating another port to its entry level laptop that many of its new users wouldn't even recognize. After all, half of the buyers Apple is selling to in its retail stores are new to the Mac.
Click to expand...

Yet they introduced a big multi-touch trackpad with no click button. That is going to baffle and confuse the heck out of switchers more than a tiny wee FireWire 400 port is, which they will probably need at some point down the line.
 
polaris20 said:
I agree. It is a bummer, and there's no real benefit to leaving it off, unless they intend upon artificially forcing people to the MBP. It is a bad move on Apple's part.
Click to expand...

I think that is the plan. I mean, with the new nvidia graphics chipset out there for the new MB line, they are pushing gaming compatibility so the low-end gamer market got a new machine. In order to get people to WANT the MPB over the MB, they needed a bargaining chip besides 13" vs. 15" and separate GPU(+ integrated) vs. integrated. So they made the choice to use FW as a deal breaker: "Do you have FW devices? Then you're gonna want a MBP."

The tech/music/film crowd want their FW!
 
Target Disk Mode is dead for sure

From http://apcmag.com/top_10_things_you_didnt_know_about_the_new_macbook.htm

"According to Geoff Winder, Product Manager for Hardware at Apple Australia, Target Disk Mode relied upon part of the Firewire standard, which isn't replicated in USB.

Winder said that Apple now believes that there is no real need for Target Disk Mode anyway — there are alternative methods for everything people would want to do with it"

About HDD camcorders: I don't understand WHY someone would want them. HDDs are sensitive machines when running - the space between the heads and platters are smaller than the height of a finger print. Most people hand-hold cameras of this size (and monopods/tripods are of no real use when visiting vacation spots), so you increase the chance of ruining the disk.

And, I checked my camcorder (minidv) - while it does have a USB port, it is only for still pictures. Video must be transfered either through the firewire or, *gasp* the analog RCA composite ports.

I use a mac-mini for my desktop - I wonder of future models on that will also lose firewire. I was considering my next desktop to be an imac anyway - hopefully they won't drop firewire from that line.
 
Wanted to add my voice to this thread. Apple has designed me out of the Macbook by removing Firewire despite the conversion cables (which is asking for latency issues) and all the rest.

All of my audio and video gear is Firewire, By removing Firewire Apple has forced me to tack on at least 500 bucks and consider buying a laptop (or other hardware) that i do not want: a previous rev Macbook, a 15" Pro, different recording interfaces, etc.

Where i was excited to dive into an upgrade from my Mini and become portable, i am now being forced to reconsider the way i do business and work with an out of date machine despite loving Apple products: OS/Software and Hardware

I will therefore limp along and eventually be taking my business elsewhere unless Apple pulls a rabbit out of their hat and somehow makes it possible for me to connect Firewire to the Macbook with a supported proprietary solution.
 
Welcome to the club Havoc. Considering this isn't even an Audio/Video forum, there are lots of people posting who use firewire daily and like many of the features of the MacBook. I just hope Apple will re-release the MacBook soon with real features that many (although not all) people want.
 
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