Oh 😛 I just embarrassed myself. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a 'Mac Pro' I thought it was called an iMac.. or I guess they're two different things
Atleast i'm not paranoid anymore..
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No Mac Pro: Not Fair
- Thread starter VirtuallyReal
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Oh 😛 I just embarrassed myself. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a 'Mac Pro' I thought it was called an iMac.. or I guess they're two different things
Atleast i'm not paranoid anymore..
Digital Skunk
macrumors G3
This thread is for the MAC PRO you know, the desktop tower Mac that has 8 cores that gets over looked by laptop junkies and such.
You can't thread crap in a thread you don't know anything about then call it stupid.
Yes, they're two different things - I was trying to lead you by the nose so you'd figure something was "up" and you would do a little research yourself.
TennisandMusic
Guest
I don't think you realize where you are posting.
Oops nevermind, you already realized your mistake. No big deal.
Lol 😱 I guess I would know what I was saying if it was under the right sub-forum
lol.. they looked identical to me !!
Seriously? I know this sounds weird but Desktops won't be around for much longer and I think Steve has a greater vision for the Desktop in the long run. I know cloud computing and everything is probably a long way off but big workstation machines like the Mac Pro will be gone eventually, but that's just my opinion. Steve has ridden the Prosumer wave and spanked it to his advantage. He is just being smart about the market and what's going to sell more? Phones or Mac Pro workstations.
Think about it. Steve can bide his time.
Think about it. Steve can bide his time.
TennisandMusic
Guest
I think we're already starting to see that trend shift for a good reason: processors in laptops are fast enough for the average person. Workstations will always be around because there are always businesses that need the power, but they will become expensive again.
Remember the SGI days for 3d work? We'll go back to those days again. Companies like HP will still make giant servers. Companies like Boxx will still make desktop hardware for the artists who need more than a 1ghz ARM processor and 256 GB of ram. And we'll pay a premium for it. More than the Apple tax.
TennisandMusic
Guest
Yeah, I seriously doubt that. People just don't seem to have perspective here. Are prices going up for workstations? No not really. Prices are going up for Apple, sure, but in the real world prices are continually going down (which is what is starting to cause the ridiculous disparity).
Real work occurs on desktops. Again, I know this is a fact lost on many, but if anything cheap power is becoming more ubiquitous. I can see the workstation changing sure. Things like USB3/Lightpeak will make the need for internal expansion cards decrease by a large margin. Super powered CPU's and GPU's with smaller form factors will give rise to smaller machines, and more all in one's. I buy that. But to suggest that desktops are going to go away, and for some crazy reason they will get incredibly expensive...no that's not going to happen. It's going to be awhile before we have the networks needed for this magical "cloud" experience people love to talk about. I mean, all that is, is a computer connected to a network! The buzzwords get a little silly after awhile.
Once we become a nation that stops producing, we will go down REAL fast. So I don't see that happening. I'm not sure why people equate the advancement of computing with the death of decent machines. People should stop trying to look like wise prognosticators by suggesting the outlandish.
Workstations and desktops are not two different words for the same thing. They are two different classes of machines. At least they used to be back in the day.
I think the point the poster was making is that over the last 10 years that has blurred. It has become the case that folks who cobble together a plain generic white box from a barebone kit along with some "extreme"/"ultra"/etc CPU package bought at newegg can jump up and label what they have is a workstation.
The hard core gamers and tinkerers are ones that pretty much muddy the differences between the two. Their respective population relative to the total PC population will likely shrink over time. [ for a number of factors: better game devices that are not towers/mini towers , huge growth in getting average people onto PCs so relatively slower growth to overall population, etc. ]
Workstations could migrate into a class of users who absolutely need one or more PCI cards to do their job. Not "nice to have" one, a real hard requirement. Either graphics , connectivity, more than two monitors , etc. they just can't buy or enable with a desktop system. The workstations sit on the floor beside/under your desk so really are not a "desk top" system. Because these are built for heavy duty work (more like deskside supercomputers) they are priced well outside the range of what the average PC is priced. Compared to someone's annual salary not all that large. Compare to personal entertainment device ... prohibitively expensive except for those with money to burn.
The average workstation price need only stay constant for 4-6 years while the average "desktop" price keep dropping for a significant gulf to open up between the two.
Desktops will sit on your desk. Since the screen is on your desk, there is high desirability to merge them into one device or at least a screen to a smaller breakout box (ala mini). Saves desktop space. You do not put them on the floor nor beside your desk. They always go on top.
If workstation population goes down because just those who need them for work buy them, then prices will certain likely to stay flat and may even go up (e.g, no more 'base , mid , upper' for Mac Pro just 'mid and upper' or no "single processor package" option) . There are lots of folks getting "too much power and flexibility" personal computers now. That number will go down as the "don't need to upgrade until buy new device" model becomes more accepted. With the growing transition to laptops, this move is already well under way. Will only grow larger with I/O port improvements.
TennisandMusic
Guest
Sure ok, I can agree with all of that I suppose. You are certainly right, it depends on what your perspective is in terms of what a workstation actually is. Since I generally build all my PC's I'm probably one of those people you describe as muddying the waters, and for ME my perspective is slanted towards my admittedly minority viewpoint.
I guess we will see how the future plays out. 🙂
I guess we will see how the future plays out. 🙂
While currently posted in the "wrong subforum" it would not have been too far offbase of tons of other postings in the MBP forums prior to April 13 but after Janurary ( the period where Intel had released the mobile Core-i mobile CPUs and several vendors were shipping limited product lines with the new offering. ) There were several Apple has abandoned the pro users ..... look PC vendors are adopting ... MBP market is going to implode if don't have a ExpressCard slot so can hook to my expensive legacy hardware ... there can't possibly be a reason they are delaying except that Apple is being explicitly mean to pro users ......
... sound familiar ?
When the Nvidia 320m and 330m finally uncorked and Intel got its production straigtened out that Apple could flip the whole line up ( save the MB Air which can't flip to Core-i anyway) they made the flip in relatively rapid succession.
xgman
macrumors 603
I think my perspective is looking back 3 years and seeing it happen already.
It's a race to the bottom with the formerly glorious big computer companies like Gateway, Dell, and HP providing massive performance for the lowest price possible. They all fight each other, seeing who bleeds out in that knife fight first. The last one standing will need more than desktops to bail them out. That's why HP invested in Palm. It's a life raft.
Apple has just found a way out of that falling market selling low powered devices that people pay a premium for.
I think you misunderstand me. Of course the heavy work (scientific programs like Mat lab, 3d programs like Maya, etc) still need a heavy-lifting computer.
But the majority of the computer buying public does not. And they wised up to that a long time ago.
Laptops already outsell desktops. The sales of iPhones and iPads are going through the roof. People are quickly realizing that they can spend $500 on a tablet device to check email (if they even use that anymore) and dive into social media or watch Netflix, streaming TV, and youtube.
It's already happening. When is the last time you've read about the runaway success of a desktop computer? The iMac? Not since the bondi blue.
Desktops are still there, but they are dull, lifeless hunks to the buying pubic. Walk into any store that sells computers. Do you see rows and rows of desktops anymore?
nope. Laptops, netbooks, cellphones, and tablets.
Workstations are quickly going back up in price (although with inflation compared to machines of yesteryear, they're cheaper than ever), but fewer and fewer people are buying beast desktop machines. The public isn't buying the tech that drives computing power forward in leaps and bounds.
Computers aren't doubling in speed like they used to. That's the scary one. Companies are making money not by selling faster computers, that's for sure.
Sure, as I said in my original post, the purpose for those big machines will always be there. Internet backbone equipment, massive web servers, FX workstations and render farms. but the public doesn't buy those. Not anymore.
Holy smokes, man, that happened a LONG time ago. We have become a country of middle managers who outsource everything.
Well, that's not true. I do have some nice "made in the usa" new balance sneakers. And an American made pistol. But no electronics made here.
That's setting up a strawman, don't you think?
Or you can wake up and smell the coffee! Apple is WAY ahead of the curve on this one. The desktop market is going to crater sooner than you think and Apple has changed course and is gaining altitude so quickly for a reason.
30 years from now, people will laugh at the notion of a computer that wasn't portable.
Actually, there are. But it is on a rather small scale (i.e. niche market products).
FusionIO for example, is made in the USA, as is some well built ultra high-end audio equipment, such as Pass Labs. Then there's military electronic systems yet, as well as a few industrial products here and there.
But nothing like when TV's, radio/stereo equipment, ... of the past (common, well known brand, large ticket household electronics down to the smaller, less expensive products).
Nostromo
macrumors 65816
The newest 27" iMacs almost have the performance of workstation.
The downside: they are not flexible.
You can't choose the screen. You want non-glare? Wide gamut? - bad luck.
RAM: big downside of iMacs is that they always have too little RAM. 16gb (and only if you buy the expensive 4Gb modules, which yanks the price of an iMac very high up) seems to be OK for now. But the RAM need of modern software goes up.
In addition, it only has one hard drive, and only one firewire port. So, you need an expensive hub.
So, iMacs don't make any sense for higher end users.
We need a good and up-to-date workstation.
And as we're going to pay more, I want higher end technology than in the current Mac Pros. Why not put an SSD drive into the Mac Pro, and have the operating system run from that drive? Should speed up the whole computer as spinning hard drives seem to be the bottleneck of current computer performance.
The downside: they are not flexible.
You can't choose the screen. You want non-glare? Wide gamut? - bad luck.
RAM: big downside of iMacs is that they always have too little RAM. 16gb (and only if you buy the expensive 4Gb modules, which yanks the price of an iMac very high up) seems to be OK for now. But the RAM need of modern software goes up.
In addition, it only has one hard drive, and only one firewire port. So, you need an expensive hub.
So, iMacs don't make any sense for higher end users.
We need a good and up-to-date workstation.
And as we're going to pay more, I want higher end technology than in the current Mac Pros. Why not put an SSD drive into the Mac Pro, and have the operating system run from that drive? Should speed up the whole computer as spinning hard drives seem to be the bottleneck of current computer performance.
TennisandMusic
Guest
PeterQV...what about business though? I really don't see accountants, IT, administrators, researchers, programmers (well maybe a little), engineers, etc. etc. etc. using laptops or tablets. (I work with MIT researchers, and worked in the UCSD chemistry department for awhile)
IMO Laptops are abysmal to work on. Absolutely awful. Terrible screens, not very good keyboards, and they pretty much require a mouse, even ones with great trackpads (which are pretty much limited to Apple machines). If Apple is "way ahead of the curve" on these things, why do they have such a tiny market share for their computers? Sure, you can argue price, and the race to the bottom stuff but...Apple has always been that way. The only reason they are doing so great in Mobile (IMO) is because it's a new market, and one geared towards mass consumerism, and they jumped on it early and did a good job. It may be a revolution, but only in how we play games and watch videos. That's a bad trend I think. I think we need a revolution in how we produce, not consume. People are way too entertainment focused.
I'm not saying the desktop isn't going to change. I'd love an iMac style machine with terabytes of solid state hard drive space, 128 gigs of super fast ram, crazy cpu, gpu, no disc drive, ridiculous networking etc. Yeah I can see it happening, of course. But that just drives the idea that we will still be working with these machines. I just don't see things getting smaller and dumber as they advance. The iMac has a 27" screen now. Do you really think people that like these machines, WANT to go do their work on a tablet or tiny frustrating laptop? I just don't see it.
Look at the car. They've been around much longer than a PC, and the only thing they've gotten is bigger, and fancier, with a few exceptions (that a lot of people laugh at). It serves an important purpose, just as computers do, and being efficient has certain requirements. They do not include a poor interface (iPad), or frustrating form factors (laptops).
Anyway, yeah, surely things are changing. But this "wake up and smell the coffee, the desktop is dying!" seems really, really premature. If that's the case what are we going to be doing as a nation? Playing tablet games and demanding streaming television? I really hope not. I certainly have not seen a decreased need for computing. Quite the opposite.
IMO Laptops are abysmal to work on. Absolutely awful. Terrible screens, not very good keyboards, and they pretty much require a mouse, even ones with great trackpads (which are pretty much limited to Apple machines). If Apple is "way ahead of the curve" on these things, why do they have such a tiny market share for their computers? Sure, you can argue price, and the race to the bottom stuff but...Apple has always been that way. The only reason they are doing so great in Mobile (IMO) is because it's a new market, and one geared towards mass consumerism, and they jumped on it early and did a good job. It may be a revolution, but only in how we play games and watch videos. That's a bad trend I think. I think we need a revolution in how we produce, not consume. People are way too entertainment focused.
I'm not saying the desktop isn't going to change. I'd love an iMac style machine with terabytes of solid state hard drive space, 128 gigs of super fast ram, crazy cpu, gpu, no disc drive, ridiculous networking etc. Yeah I can see it happening, of course. But that just drives the idea that we will still be working with these machines. I just don't see things getting smaller and dumber as they advance. The iMac has a 27" screen now. Do you really think people that like these machines, WANT to go do their work on a tablet or tiny frustrating laptop? I just don't see it.
Look at the car. They've been around much longer than a PC, and the only thing they've gotten is bigger, and fancier, with a few exceptions (that a lot of people laugh at). It serves an important purpose, just as computers do, and being efficient has certain requirements. They do not include a poor interface (iPad), or frustrating form factors (laptops).
Anyway, yeah, surely things are changing. But this "wake up and smell the coffee, the desktop is dying!" seems really, really premature. If that's the case what are we going to be doing as a nation? Playing tablet games and demanding streaming television? I really hope not. I certainly have not seen a decreased need for computing. Quite the opposite.
Kurfer
macrumors regular
Are you that annoying guy that constantly bugs the IT department for new equipment that you actually don't need just because it's new (under the justification it's "needed" to do your job)?
If deadlines for hardware are your #1 priority then you need to move away from Apple and get a Windows based PC.
Kurfer
macrumors regular
Thanks for holding up the stereotype for Mac laptop users, we really needed that. 🙄
Techhie
macrumors 65816
I'm not sure how anything he said suggests an unnecessary "need" for new hardware.
Although it's fair to want reliable timeframes from Apple as a pro, binding yourself to their products is a de-facto agreement for unpredictability. Besides, it has been mentioned numerous times that this is not an unusually long wait for an update. The Mac Pro update cycle is dependent on Intel, and thus can't be grouped together with the PPC-based PMG5 cycle.
So if the "processors will be available at the end of this month" rumor is decidedly false, what is the speculation for why Apple is waiting? Is there any legitimate reason they would be okay with the mini receiving an update alongside the iPhone, but not the Mac Pro?
How often in the past has Apple done price drops on products with no hardware updates?
How often in the past has Apple done updates on consecutive Tuesdays?
How often in the past has Apple done price drops on products with no hardware updates?
How often in the past has Apple done updates on consecutive Tuesdays?
I meant I don't have any USA made electronics in my house. It isn't by choice, that's for sure. 🙁
Other company's are shipping the processors, actually they even sell them here in the local computer store (4 in stock) So it probably has nothing to do with Cpu shortage.
I'm guessing they are still working on the MP update, its just not ready yet. there is just not one word on the MP update in comparison to the MacMini, Macbook Pro, Macbook,...there were some strong rumors or leaks. Its awfully quit in regards to the MacPro.
The French Rumor is still the strongest (source was someone from Adobe CS5 development team) claiming that the MacPro wouldn't be released to the public before October.
To my knowledge (""), never.