Nobel-Winning Economist Calls Apple's Irish Tax Arrangement 'Fraud'

[teknikal90]

The Panama papers, prosecute the ones who broke the law, not the spirit of the law, the actual law. I don't blame anyone from legally avoiding any and all taxes that they can.
Bush wasn't awarded a Peace Prize. Anyway off topic.

I used to think like that, if it's legal why make a fuss? They shouldn't be blamed. You would do the same anyway..
I think that's partially true. But it also assumes that everything legal is right. That is not true.
If everyone continues to think like that, what is currently wrong will forever remain wrong.

Outrage such as this economist calling out a flaw in the system that is 'legally' exploited by Apple shouldn't be discouraged.

Writing off complaints about legal loopholes simply due to them being 'legal'...is irrational.

 

[lowendlinux]

Gee no kidding.

 

[emm386]

I am very much Apple critic... BUT:

I wouldn't pay more money than I absolutely had to neither.

Especially if it wasn't mine, but someone elses (shareholder) money I spend.
Apple - like any stock market-listed company - has an obligation to keep their spendings low.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[teknikal90]

I am very much Apple critic... BUT:

I wouldn't pay more money than I absolutely had to neither.

Especially if it wasn't mine, but someone elses (shareholder) money I spend.
Apple - like any stock market-listed company - has an obligation to keep their spendings low.

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

hate the game.

"A tax law that encourages American firms to keep jobs abroad is wrong, and I think we can get a consensus in America to get that changed."

 

[Sonmi451]

I like Apple, but I agree. It's fraud. Apple needs to do better.

 

[alexgowers]

Power and money corrupt. These big companies need to pay tax like everyone else. Amazon, starbucks, google the lot of them are literally robbing us all blind! I don't get how you can't be outraged by this stuff. They are stealing money from governments around the world acting like shady cartels. That TAX is OURS, whatever country you're from.

 

[Deuce on the Clock]

It may be legal but it does tarnish Apple rhetoric of always "doing whats right". They take a stand on the environment and recently the revenue for streaming music to "set the standard" yet when it comes to the almighty dollar, "er pay every cent that is owed according to law". They even do business and buy off a company to do so and this country violates human rights. Very hypocritical company. And may I ask why all the defending of Apple, you get nothing from them except to give them more money. Crazy word we live in.

 

[ani4ani]

Power and money corrupt. These big companies need to pay tax like everyone else. Amazon, starbucks, google the lot of them are literally robbing us all blind! I don't get how you can't be outraged by this stuff. They are stealing money from governments around the world acting like shady cartels. That TAX is OURS, whatever country you're from.

Here-here...and the paradox is that if all these corporations paid their tax then the rates wouldn't need to be as high.

 

[DrewDaHilp1]

I used to think like that, if it's legal why make a fuss? They shouldn't be blamed. You would do the same anyway..
I think that's partially true. But it also assumes that everything legal is right. That is not true.
If everyone continues to think like that, what is currently wrong will forever remain wrong.

Outrage such as this economist calling out a flaw in the system that is 'legally' exploited by Apple shouldn't be discouraged.

Writing off complaints about legal loopholes simply due to them being 'legal'...is irrational.

Then by all means lobby lawmakers to get this changed. Law is a black and white issue, it's legal or it's not. Morality is black and white with a lot of shades of gray thrown in.
[doublepost=1469825668][/doublepost]

It may be legal but it does tarnish Apple rhetoric of always "doing whats right". They take a stand on the environment and recently the revenue for streaming music to "set the standard" yet when it comes to the almighty dollar, "er pay every cent that is owed according to law". They even do business and buy off a company to do so and this country violates human rights. Very hypocritical company. And may I ask why all the defending of Apple, you get nothing from them except to give them more money. Crazy word we live in.

Is that an Apple saying? I mean doing what is right is not using the near slave labor of Foxconn.

 

[ucfgrad93]

Here-here...and the paradox is that if all these corporations paid their tax then the rates wouldn't need to be as high.

You really think politicians would lower the tax rates for us??? Good one.

 

[Plutonius]

Do you still beat your significant other?

Gotcha

When anyone disagrees with you, you call them a complete liar or insult them. I understand since it must be so painful for you to come up with a coherent argument .

As long as it gets you through the day and it keeps you from thinking too much, I suppose it's good.

 

[Derpage]

I love all the apologists who come to defend this poor beleaguered corporate entity.
The chorus of lower the tax rate is hilarious. As if that would be incentive for them to rearrange their structure.
I'm flabbergasted by that line of thought. The mere concept that the infrastructure or legal system of Ireland is anywhere near that of the USA is laughable and just shows the economic and business prowess of the lower the corporate tax sheep.

 

[niun]

I love all the apologists who come to defend this poor beleaguered corporate entity.
The chorus of lower the tax rate is hilarious. As if that would be incentive for them to rearrange their structure.
I'm flabbergasted by that line of thought. The mere concept that the infrastructure of Ireland is anywhere near that of the USA is laughable and just shows the economic and business prowess of the lower the corporate tax sheep.

Seriously though It's totally unfair Apple get charged more tax than the average Mexican day labourer. Both foreign entities trying to make it in the big USofA.

What I find really weird is the thought Trump wouldn't tax the living hell out of Apple. He's a business man and could be in charge of the largest company in the world, USA.CORP.
He take a long hard look at the books, Make 2 + 2 into Sue and make Apple cough up the $$.

 

[Solomani]

Americans shouldnt underestimate the stupidity and gullibility of the average Trump voter.

You are deluded and mis-informed.

Trump is truth.

 

[niun]

You are deluded and mis-informed.

Trump is truth.

He tweets his mind.
The Combat 18 guy down the local speaks his mind.
This does not equal truth.

edit - speaks to tweets.

 

[Speedy2]

Both are fundamentally broken: the tax law and Apple's morality.

Ok course it's legal what Apple is doing. But this company that claims to be morally "better" than all the others, and uses that message as a foundation of their public image, is nothing but another soulless, corporate shell.
Paying taxes and thereby sustaining the healthy society that is necessary to be successful as a company, is just as important as - say - using renewable energy or fighting against child labor. But talking about labor, their exploited Chinese workforce is just another example of how that image is fake.

I get it, it's dictated by the market. But Apple should just be honest about it and not paint themselves as something they are not.

 

[usarioclave]

"But this company that claims to be morally "better" than all the others,"

What is moral for a corporation? Is it moral "giving money to the government so they can waste it?" Is it moral to enrich the owners of the company?

Why should any company answer to anyone besides its shareholders?

If the shareholders want Apple to change its behavior, they can vote on it.

 

[teknikal90]

Then by all means lobby lawmakers to get this changed. Law is a black and white issue, it's legal or it's not. Morality is black and white with a lot of shades of gray thrown in.

That's exactly why this economist said all that to the press! And people like you are for some reason almost condemning it! What do you mean??

 

[tgara]

Power and money corrupt. These big companies need to pay tax like everyone else. Amazon, starbucks, google the lot of them are literally robbing us all blind! I don't get how you can't be outraged by this stuff. They are stealing money from governments around the world acting like shady cartels. That TAX is OURS, whatever country you're from.

What tax is Apple not legally paying?

 

[niun]

What is moral for a corporation?

Hmm. Instead of trying to curry favor with corrupt Indians by opening up a massive office in India. Create jobs in the US.
If you don't want to pay tax there then do something for the country rather than just sell overpriced products from China.

But that's a foolish thought in my commie utopia.

 

[tennisproha]

Even a Nobel Prize winner doesn't understand how the tax code works.

Even an armchair expert doesn't understand how arrogance works.

 

[Speedy2]

Corporations don't pay taxes. They pass that cost to consumers via higher prices of goods.

Haha. Your reasoning may sound somewhat logical, but it's fundamentally flawed.
Since companies are driven to maximize their profits, they have already set a price for their product that allows them to make as much money as possible. That means, if they COULD charge more, they WOULD.
Now, income taxes (and we're talking about these here) are not just another form of expense like salaries or rent, because they are directly linked to profits. i.e. no profits no taxes. That means, unlike "normal" expenses that can drive a company into a loss, taxes can't do that.
So, let's assume that taxes are set to level that don't render a company unprofitable. 25% (or even 35%) certainly don't do that if the company isn't a total failure.
So a company, being in a competitive situation!, will have to face a reduction of their profits. They can't simply raise their prices, because if they could, they would have done it in the first place.

Income taxes have never stopped a company from making money. If there is a good business opportunity out there, no one will say "I will choose not to make money, because the profits are taxed". That's just not the case.
What IS the case, is that companies will try and minimize the tax rate. Which is an entirely different thing to what you proposed.

 

[tgara]

Apple's employees do pay for those services: through income and sales tax. Any tax levied on a corporation is simply paid by the consumer. If Apple was forced to pay their "fair share", do you think they would simply eat the cost of their lost profits?

Yep.

It's astounding how little people know about basic economics and basic human nature these days.

 

[leroypants]

You are deluded and mis-informed.

Trump is truth.

Fun fact, the average IQ of a trump supporter is 82.

 

[tgara]

Power and money corrupt. These big companies need to pay tax like everyone else. Amazon, starbucks, google the lot of them are literally robbing us all blind! I don't get how you can't be outraged by this stuff. They are stealing money from governments around the world acting like shady cartels. That TAX is OURS, whatever country you're from.

The IRS disagrees:

Avoidance of taxes is not a criminal offense. Any attempt to reduce, avoid, minimize, or alleviate taxes by legitimate means is permissible. The distinction between evasion and avoidance is fine yet definite. One who avoids tax does not conceal or misrepresent. He shapes events to reduce or eliminate tax liability and upon the happening of the events, makes a complete disclosure. Evasion, on the other hand, involves deceit, subterfuge, camouflage, concealment, some attempt to color or obscure events, or making things seem other than what they are.

Everything Apple has done is legal. Believe me, they are under unparalleled scrutiny on this matter. If you don't like what they're doing, work to get the law changed. But know this, as an Apple shareholder, I will fight you tooth and nail on it.