Nobel-Winning Economist Calls Apple's Irish Tax Arrangement 'Fraud'

[Apple Corps]

That's because it IS fraud. Apple doesn't want to pay it's share of taxes and never will because nobody cares to hold them accountable. Worse yet, this thread WILL have fanboys being apologetic about it and defending Apple....

Think about that; cheering on a corporation worth billions that evades taxes.

What are you - a flaming socialist? 'Fair share" of taxes - rubbish. Our lousy government is so corrupt and incompetent that I applaud any and all that legally evade taxes. Cut the outdated tax code, stop the corruption, downsize the government, give citizens service and results for their taxes - things will improve.

Are you voting for Hillary? She bashes Wall Street while she and her philandering husband rake in millions for BS speaking engagements to Wall Street.

 

[centauratlas]

Let's just clear this up:
1. Recently, the Nobel Meorial prize in Econ is really just a way to reward economists who follow the statist, authoritarian line helping the powerful politicians maintain their power over other people's money and consequently lives.

2. The US needs to lower its corporate rate, preferably to zero. This way the authoritarians can't use the corporate tax code to collect extra taxes from the guilible who really believe that "corporations" are paying the tax and not people. Admittedly, it is a good way to demogague by complaining about corporations to deflect from the fact that they are just using corporations to collect extra taxes from everyone else.

3. Competition in a race to freedom is a good thing.

4. The economist obviously doesn't know the meaning of the word "fraud"

 

[leroypants]

This thread really needs some perspective!

1. The US government is hardly the one to be complaining here. Apple pays the 35% tax rate on all income from the Americas. The US government just wants a share of taxes on other foreign income that they aren't currently entitled to tax. They are free to change the laws to tax this income.

2. Apple pays vastly more than their competitors. Effective tax rates: Apple 26%, Alphabet 17%, Samsung 15%.

Please link and cite with verifiable numbers showing Apple is paying a 35% tax rate....

 

[pat500000]

Tim is liberal and democratic....just like Hilary Clinton.
While we got Hilary at DNC who spoke about being proud to be nominated by the "public" and never admitted frauds she committed, We got Tim Crook who is delusional and stated that he pay taxes...when he didn't show any evidence.
I can't even trust him even when he was being interview by mad money..."we are doing great."

 

[paul4339]

...
Also, if Apple is an American company then it shouldn't be putting taxes into Ireland and be a wannabe Irish company. I mean, you can't put money into someone else's system and enjoy all the benefits America gives you, right? I mean, if you are getting stuff you didn't pay for, isn't that like stealing?
....

but then, why should the America be entitled to tax any of the profits generated by goods sold in the EU? Shouldn't that tax be distributed back to the EU countries where the goods were purchased?

.

 

[DudeDad]

That's because it IS fraud. Apple doesn't want to pay it's share of taxes and never will because nobody cares to hold them accountable. Worse yet, this thread WILL have fanboys being apologetic about it and defending Apple....

Think about that; cheering on a corporation worth billions that evades taxes.

Can you cite the laws that have been violated? I'm not defending Apple's tax strategy, but just because you conclude it is fraud does not make it so. Just let us know which laws they have violated. Thanks!

 

[Stella]

A lot of butt hurt because due to someone's opinion, who, is a highly regarded economist.
[doublepost=1469810581][/doublepost]

Has this guy left his desk to actually build something or does he decide to call fraud just from his ivory tower without ever getting his hands dirty?

What credentials do you have to discredit him? Armchair economist does not count!

 

[Lennholm]

So, if corporate tax is to be lowered, when is it low enough? At what point can we expect companies like Apple to stop using the excuse "Taxes are too high!"?
Does it have to be even lower than in the tax havens they currently stash their money in? Those tax havens aren't going to take that and then we'll see a race to the bottom that will result in these companies being able to freely exploit the common resources of the societies they operate in without giving anything back.

 

[jimbobb24]

No, I said tax at every stage of money changing hands. Corporations would be taxed to death too.[/

Youare right and have conceived me, Apple and all other corporations should pay 0% taxes ever. The average middle class worker should be more considerate of Apple's need to profit and less concerned with their individual tax rate and in fact should be willing to pay more taxes so Apple can maintain the billions and billions of the Profit they make.

What is Apple? Who owns Apple? Corporations are just things people CHOOSE to do together. Millions of middle class people own Apple in their 401Ks. There is not some evil overlord who owns Apple and is laughing as he steals money from middle class people. Thousands of middle class people work and get paid by Apple. When Apple makes profits it either pays dividends to those who own stock (middle class people - go buy some stock and you can get Apple's profits) or reinvests them in a hope to make its stock more valuable (which helps people who own stocks like middle class people in their 401K). Are there some rich big owners of Apple stock? Probably, but most the stock is owned by funds and people who use Apple stock/Apple corporation as an investment.

Ironically (or maybe not) your solution of 0% corporate taxes is actually a great idea. If a middle class person owns Apple stock and gets paid dividends by Apple profits - that person is taxed twice. The first time when Apple is taxed and their profits are reduced so dividends are reduced, a second time when they report the profit from those dividends on their personal income tax. That sucks! Removing corporate taxes would mean businesses from all over the world would come to the US instead of Ireland and provide more opportunities for middle class people here instead of Ireland.

 

[Thunderhawks]

What are you - a flaming socialist? 'Fair share" of taxes - rubbish. Our lousy government is so corrupt and incompetent that I applaud any and all that legally evade taxes. Cut the outdated tax code, stop the corruption, downsize the government, give citizens service and results for their taxes - things will improve.

Are you voting for Hillary? She bashes Wall Street while she and her philandering husband rake in millions for BS speaking engagements to Wall Street.

All former presidents get speaking engagements, as thank yous from lobbyists. Nothing new there.
Some hide it better than others.

One does not have to be a socialist to see that the American political system does not serve the people.

Everybody is a little liberal, conservative , progressive, green etc. depending on the issues. It is impossible to start a new party in USA like in other parts of the world, where the parties are forced to work together and come many times to a common good for the people.

Even little parties not in government provide enough needle pricks to make the big parties at least look at issues.

Since America has always and is still is doing everything with money, no new party will ever have a chance without a change of the underlying system.

So, you'll end up with a choice of whom you hate least, rather than who is the best candidate.

Not exactly a formula for success.

 

[niun]

Regardless of if it's fraud or not, if it's a tactic used by corporations everywhere - it is or if it's used by private individuals.
Tim Cook and Apple by extension always preach about what a wonderful, ethical world hugging company they are.
Truth is they are no different from any other shady feckers out there.

Defending Apple and you're defending Google, MS, BP, [insert company here]...

 

[theheadguy]

Lowering your taxes through legal means and obeying the law is not fraud, no matter what this guy says.

I realize you think your brilliance outshines that of an economic nobel prize laureate, but you obviously didn't even attempt to understand the context in which he spoke it. He called the company’s attribution of significant earnings to a comparatively small overseas unit a “fraud.” It's deceptive (it simply is, regardless of legality), and that deception is comparable to fraud. It doesn't matter that Apple correctly utilizes legal tax loopholes. It's the truth, whether you like it or not.

 

[leroypants]

What is Apple? Who owns Apple? Corporations are just things people CHOOSE to do together. Millions of middle class people own Apple in their 401Ks. There is not some evil overlord who owns Apple and is laughing as he steals money from middle class people. Thousands of middle class people work and get paid by Apple. When Apple makes profits it either pays dividends to those who own stock (middle class people - go buy some stock and you can get Apple's profits) or reinvests them in a hope to make its stock more valuable (which helps people who own stocks like middle class people in their 401K). Are there some rich big owners of Apple stock? Probably, but most the stock is owned by funds and people who use Apple stock/Apple corporation as an investment.

Ironically (or maybe not) your solution of 0% corporate taxes is actually a great idea. If a middle class person owns Apple stock and gets paid dividends by Apple profits - that person is taxed twice. The first time when Apple is taxed and their profits are reduced so dividends are reduced, a second time when they report the profit from those dividends on their personal income tax. That sucks! Removing corporate taxes would mean businesses from all over the world would come to the US instead of Ireland and provide more opportunities for middle class people here instead of Ireland.

Got it, multi national corporations shouldn't have to pay a single penny intaxes on billions in profit while your average tax paying citizens should pay higher taxes to subsidize those multi national corporations.

I am sure those "millions" of middle class tax payers you claim exist who own a few thousand shares in Apple would make enough to off their Apple stock dividends to offset the massive tax increase they would face if the corporate tax rate was lowered to zero.

I am even more sure that if the corporate tax rate was lowered to zero Apple would lower the price of its products and services and not reap extra profits....

 

[BaldiMac]

Please link and cite with verifiable numbers showing Apple is paying a 35% tax rate....

Ummm.. That's the corporate tax rate in the U.S. Is this number really hard to verify?

Apple doesn't separate out taxes by region that I can find, but from their latest 10Q.

The Company’s effective tax rates during the third quarter of 2016 and 2015 differ from the statutory federal income tax rate of 35% due primarily to certain undistributed foreign earnings, a substantial portion of which was generated by subsidiaries organized in Ireland, for which no U.S. taxes are provided when such earnings are intended to be indefinitely reinvested outside the U.S.

All income from the Americas goes through the US and thus is taxed at 35%. Most other income is funneled through Ireland.

 

[Kaibelf]

That's great that he has an award, but unless he goes out of his way to pay more than he legally must in taxes, he really should be careful about throwing around the word fraud.

 

[leroypants]

Tim is liberal and democratic....just like Hilary Clinton.
While we got Hilary at DNC who spoke about being proud to be nominated by the "public" and never admitted frauds she committed, We got Tim Crook who is delusional and stated that he pay taxes...when he didn't show any evidence.
I can't even trust him even when he was being interview by mad money..."we are doing great."

I missed it when Hillary was charged with fraud guilty in a court of law...

 

[apolloa]

You mean it's legal fraud, considering they use loopholes in tax law. The same as Amazon and Alphabet use.

Close the loopholes, heavily punish those who breach breach them, job done.

 

[leroypants]

Ummm.. That's the corporate tax rate in the U.S. Is this number really hard to verify?

Apple doesn't separate out taxes by region that I can find, but from their latest 10Q.

The Company’s effective tax rates during the third quarter of 2016 and 2015 differ from the statutory federal income tax rate of 35% due primarily to certain undistributed foreign earnings, a substantial portion of which was generated by subsidiaries organized in Ireland, for which no U.S. taxes are provided when such earnings are intended to be indefinitely reinvested outside the U.S.

All income from the Americas goes through the US and thus is taxed at 35%. Most other income is funneled through Ireland.

So I don't see any actual numbers verifying the actual rate of 35% was paid in your post....

 

[Gudi]

Nobel-Winning Economist Calls Apple's Irish Tax Arrangement 'Fraud'

There is no Nobel Prize for Economics and there will never be one. The prize is awarded for outstanding contributions for humanity in chemistry, literature, peace, physics and medicine. These five and no more! Every sixth category is in itself a fraud.

 

[pat500000]

I missed it when Hillary was charged with fraud guilty in a court of law...

That's the point.

 

[teknikal90]

Are you being sarcastic?

not in the very very least.

 

[pat500000]

Tim is liberal and democratic....just like Hilary Clinton.
While we got Hilary at DNC who spoke about being proud to be nominated by the "public" and never admitted frauds she committed, We got Tim Crook who is delusional and stated that he pay taxes...when he didn't show any evidence.
I can't even trust him even when he was being interview by mad money..."we are doing great."

EDIT
http://9to5mac.com/2016/07/29/tim-cook-hillary-clinton-fundraiser/#disqus_thread

just Saw this.....geez.

 

[applefan69]

It is not fraud in a legal sense but it certainly is not fitting with Apple's "we want to make the world a better place narrative".

Even if they think the taxes are too high - since when is it theirs to judge ? Shouldn't that be a matter of democracy? And there will always be a cheaper place in order to avoid taxes.

Either way: Being the most profitable company in the world and operating worldwide and then trying to evade taxes in order to pay two bucks fifty In taxes is -while not illegal- simply not right.

It is a business, simple as that. Even if the business has a mission statement "to better the world" that priority is only second to operating the business effectively. The business can only start fulfulling its' mission statement after it has made itself into a successful business.

I say using tax laws effectively is smart and ethical business practise. Why pay more than they have to? Apple did not write the laws, Apple has done nothing wrong. If you do not like it try to get the laws changed. No point wasting time pointing fingers.

Geese and here people are getting upset about money that is not even theirs. Even if Apple paid these governments the tax (that they supposedly owe), do you think that would have ANY impact on you? Doubt it.

 

[Cineplex]

Well said Sir. Apple's behavious is a total disgrace. Its time for a change in the law to prevent this. In my view Apple has immorally evaded $150bn in taxes. An absolute disgrace

$150 billion could sure go along way. Could probably put some people to work on civic projects that aren't funded. Sure the government would probably waste half of it....but someone in this country might actually benefit. I am sure Apple will spend all the $150 billion in China and India and this country will never see a dime. It is a waste and proof Apple doesn't care. Just like the "we are green" b.s. In my book, selling solar power to the electric company is not green...its just fancy maths that make you look green to idiot consumers.

 

[leroypants]

EDIT
http://9to5mac.com/2016/07/29/tim-cook-hillary-clinton-fundraiser/#disqus_thread

just Saw this.....geez.

Maybe as a private citizen Tim doesn't like the way mainstream republicans
compare him and other gays to pedophile s or maybe he resents the suggestion by mainstream republicans that he is sick, a monster, is mental ill, wants to convert straight men and boys to be gay and a danger to society.
[doublepost=1469812395][/doublepost]

$150 billion could sure go along way. Could probably put some people to work on civic projects that aren't funded. Sure the government would probably waste half of it....but someone in this country might actually benefit. I am sure Apple will spend all the $150 billion in China and India and this country will never see a dime. It is a waste and proof Apple doesn't care. Just like the "we are green" b.s. In my book, selling solar power to the electric company is not green...its just fancy maths that make you look green to idiot consumers.

Taxed at just over 10% would cover NASA's budget for a year...